Missouri_COR

If I am attending an out of council scouting event as a scouter - just to look around and see what it's about; Powderhorn or a rendezvous for example, do I need to fill out a tour plan for just myself?

I am traveling by myself, not doing any special activity (climbing, shooting, swimming). There is no assistant adult leader. If you read the form, it states "Boy Scouts of America policy requires at least two adult leaders on all BSA activities." I always presumed this was because youth were on the form, but this is not the case for this event.

What does the general community say about this? Can I go? Will the new online tour plan system coming online in 10 days let you do it?

I am a COR of a pack, troop and crew. Most of the leadership attending summer camp with the youth take a week of their vacation time in order to attend. I like to find ways, at summer camp, to thank them for volunteering. As an aside - the summer camp the troop attends most of the time is patrol cooking for every meal - which means the adults also function as a patrol and do all of their own cooking and cleanup. The pack eats in a dining hall.

Things I have done in the past include

- Cooking 2 or 3 large dutch ovens of lasagna from scratch, french bread and a salad. I take care of all of the cooking and cleanup.

- On Friday afternoon, while everyone is out doing the mile swim, silver bullet, golden arrow and scoutmaster belly flop, I setup a giant nacho bar with all the fixings. They can make burritos, nachos, whatever when they get back.

- Create a dessert bar one evening - cobbler (of course) with ice cream, pound cake, a bunt cake, or something out of the ordinary I can find a recipe for.

- Take the boys out to earn their forestry activity pin, while the dads all stay back at camp and take a nap (usually a couple of other packs join me)

- Take the boys on a night hike while any leader who wants to stay back and relax around the campfire without any youth around, may do so

- Take the boys geode or arrow head hunting on an afternoon to give the dads some down time.

You get the idea - what I am looking for are other ideas. What have other leaders in your unit done for you while @ camp to say thank you OR what would you like to see done given a "perfect" world for you at camp to make your week just that much better.

YiS

Mo

I believe the answer to the question is no. They *can* be a member. For example, my CO requires the COR to also be the treasurer. So, in that role, I do have a vote. However, I tend to only vote when there is a close issue. My opinion can sway people and I want my committee to run things while I tend to be more of an overseer. NOTE: I am a voting member of the "local council"

In our units, we hold monthly joint committee meetings. The agenda belongs to me the first 30 minutes. Only CO wide issues are discussed (pack, troop and crew). After that we break up into 3 seperate meetings and I float between them as necessary. Therefore, if an issue comes up to a vote AND I am in another room, I don't get to use my treasurer vote.

As a member of the scouting family, I have suggestions and ideas I like to submit for consideration; but those are NOT as part of my role as COR, they are more of a very involved scouter looking to improve the program. The committee owns the vote.

From one of my other posts....

I was one of the folks asking about this a year ago. I have been bugging my council / district for several months for some clarification on exactly what this "agreement" means as well and how we can take advantage of it. Finally my DE politely told me "shut up", they did not have anything. They simply don't have any material to hand out.

So, finally I have start creating my own set of guidelines and rules for what this means. For example, they attended Family Camp with us, we invited the girls to build PWD cars and race the same day we did (but not against the cub scouts), we have asked them to help us with SFF and items like that. We have now created a "Heritage Crew" to provide access to the BSA resources available to those registered with the crew - especially training.

However, we felt like we were leaving the younger girls out. Last summer the council replaced the camping director with someone new and they were looking to replace our retiring council scouting executive. I took that chance to contact them and get more information again. This time they were interested in meeting with the various AHG groups in the area. After a couple of meetings and then some internal meetings at the AHG level, the council is opening up the local BSA summer camp property "a week early" to provide a summer camp experience for the AHG troops in the area similar to the Webelos / Webelos II program. I am helping them build a program to fit with the resources I know the scout camp has and to meet requirements for AHG. The council is providing a bulk of the staff, access to food services and resources of the property. We are now actively recruiting youth and adults to attend.

So, right now I am living in two worlds, the AHG world and the BSA world. I just keep telling myself it's only an hour a week.

PM me if you would like more details.

YiS

I understand your problem well, as I am the COR for all 3 units at our CO (about 100 youth). We just made a change two months ago and so far it seems to be helping.

All 3 committees and I meet from 7 - 7:45 (AT THE LATEST) and we only discuss common issues - scouting for food, family camp, new G2SS rules, Scout Sunday, etc. Then myself and my facilities coordinator step out into the common area and the three committees break into their respective rooms and have their meetings.

If I am needed to answer a question to deal with something simple, I may pop into one of the rooms, or if I want to talk about some larger looming issue I may also attend the units committee mtg.

Then we all meet briefly afterwards to mention anything that might have been forgotten earlier in the evening (or a change due to a revelation). Any unit that wants to continue talking, may do so after that point.

It addresses your issues of the common stuff and then allows the units to run their portion of the meeting.

I was one of the folks asking about this a year ago. I have been bugging my council / district for several months for some clarification on exactly what this "agreement" means and how we can take advantage of it. Finally my DE politely told me "shut up", they did not have anything. They simply don't have any material to hand out.

So, finally I have start creating my own set of guidelines and rules for what this means. For example, they attended Family Camp with us, we invited the girls to build PWD cars and race the same day we did (but not against the cub scouts), we have asked them to help us with SFF and items like that. We have now created a "Heritage Crew" to provide access to the BSA resources available to those registered with the crew - especially training.

However, we felt like we were leaving the younger girls out. Last summer the council replaced the camping director with someone new and they were looking to replace our retiring council scouting executive. I took that chance to contact them and get more information again. This time they were interested in meeting with the various AHG groups in the area. After a couple of meetings and then some internal meetings at the AHG level, the council is opening up the summer camp property "a week early" to provide a summer camp experience for the AHG troops in the area. I am helping them build a program to fit with the resources I know the scout camp has and to meet requirements for AHG. The council is providing a bulk of the staff, access to food services and resources of the property. We are now actively recruiting youth and adults to attend.

So, right now I am living in two worlds, the AHG world and the BSA world. I just keep telling myself it's only an hour a week.

Thought I would provide an update for those who were kind enough to reply a couple of months ago. I could not of imagined this turn of events.

Basically we are still officially in a holding pattern. I presented my case, but did not receive a response. With recruiting and the new scouting year starting, my time was taken with other more important activies and this was shelved until I had more time OR they answered back.

The first week of August, one of the elders of our church contacted me about needing some help. This elder also leads a group that helps churches throughout the community establish men's ministry groups. This elder had no idea of the issues with the IH and his boss. The help he needed..."they wanted to invite ALL the boy scouts, their dad/uncles and their leaders living in the district to a Cabela's Hunting and Fishing Extravaganza" that was being held at my CO's facilities. They wanted to pay for each scout in the district to attend; this included dinner, door prizes, speakers, a DVD, presentations, car show, fishing tank, archery, air soft target shooting, etc. Pretty big deal. Oh yeah, did I mention Cabela's would have lots of guns there!

I worked to communicate the message out via round tables and get as many scouts in uniform as possible. It was simply a fun event for the scouts and hundreds of other adults in the community.

About the same time, our church hired a new fella to lead our men's ministry group. He was unaware of the scouting ministry his church until just a few weeks ago. (Per church policy, we are not really allowed to talk about ourselves, advertise on premises, etc; even though my unit is over 100 active youth strong). He was shocked at how little communication about this group was out there. He has plans to for working with this group, especially the older boys in the program.

As final preperations were being done for this extravaganza, the amount of activity between myself as the BSA liason and the elders of the church increased 10 fold. The questions about what the scouts did, how come they never hear of them at their church, what could they do to help, etc all started coming out of the wood work. I mentioned nothing of my issues, it was not the place or time.

However, last night at the event, when the bulk of my work was done and I could relax a little, I did start to share my issue with the elders I was able to talk to.

So, I can't tell you yet where this is going, but expect I may see a completely different vision for the scouts of my units and not just this specific firearm issue.

One idea makes use of the fact we have access to freezer space @ the CO (or a parents house) and we have some dads/uncles in the unit that like to hunt deer. There are certain individuals that are going to hunt and donate the meat to a local butcher. Instead we have them invite some of the older scouts to help grind the meet into 1# packages. Our basic costs are the wrapping paper/plastic and tape for the meat. We then have a freezer full of venison and the boys plan their meals using ground meat; taco, burritos, spaghetti, add spices to make sausage, chilli, burgershire soup, hamburgers, etc. The costs of the protein is very inexpensive on a per pound basis. A side benefit is the meat is very lean, so any issues with grease are non-existant.

The adults are going to hunt anyway and buy the tags, so that is really not part of the cost. NOTE: We tend not to announce to the boys they are eating venison, some have an issue with it. But after a year of eating it, what are they going to say?

From the boy scout perspective, we are Protestant.

They claim to be part of Evangelical Free Church of America (EFCA) http://www.efca.org/

I completely agree if the CO said no guns on property, I would go elsewhere for training. I was completely prepared to do that (and to some degree expected that as the response). The laws in Missouri are require written authority to bring firearms on to church or school grounds; that makes sense. HOWEVER, the email response to me was crystal clear; there was to be NO training whatsoever on or OFF property. So going to a gun club or elsewhere is not an option as things stand right now.

To that end, I will be having a heart to heart discussion with the staff on Wednesday to "plead my case". I was able to speak with Mark Belli of the NRA Youth Programs Department on Friday and he provided some ideas on how to move forward. One of the tips he provided to me was the group known as Royal Rangers is church based and has shooting as a large part of their program. Does anyone know of any web site that provides some details on their program, I am looking to refer to their program as part of my examples?

Meeting is in 3 days, summer camp is in 13 days.

I met with the IH this evening to fully understand what the concerns are. Basically it boils down to not understanding basic facts of the program. The directive actually came down from the IH's supervisor (executive director of a large church).

Their argument boils down to "If we teach the youth to do a skill, and they use this skill to do 'something' inappropriate, it will get back to the fact they are part of Boy Scouts and chartered by this CO. If it gets back to the CO, then it's our fault". If they carry this forward, I guess they will request we not teach the boys knife skills, or sleep in the woods with bugs.

The executive director (not the IH) was unaware shooting firearms is commonly part of the summer programs attended by the youth. He did not realize the broadness in scope of his statement. However, the IH is still requesting I hold to that decision. He also suggested I put a presentation together to be given to both of them next week to explain this part of the program to see if I can persuade him to change his decision. But as of now, it stands. I have a large number of youth signed up for shooting merit badges at summer camp in 3 weeks. They are not going to be very happy if the decision stands.

Thanks for all your responses. To answer training question, yes I am COR trained, as well as committee, ASM, cub master, wood badge etc trained. Based on comments by the DE, I am definitely the most active COR in the district.

I have a very good relationship with my IH. I meet with him regularly and his boss upon occasion.

To beavahs question, yes this is firearms directed issue. I completely agree they have a right to not allow firearms on premises. It was a letter of permission as a certified NRA instructor to allow me to bring shotguns into the building to execute training that exacted the response I received. And yes they specified ON and OFF premises. Now what really floored me was the fact I am in the final stages of putting a shooting sports crew together. They have been made aware of what I was going to do over the spring and summer to prep for this.

What I still need to understand is the issue our unit executing the training OR the youth using firearms at all. I am waiting to hear how the unit needs to move forward.

Obviously by my Username, I am a COR. I have been a fairly active COR for 3 years for 3 units (Pack, Troop and Crew). I have been with the units for a total of 7 years - the first four in various leadership roles.

I know there are basic things you can't do at some COs. For example, if your CO is a public school, teaching knife safety with real knives is out of the question. Even if I asked them if I could, there are laws against bringing those items into the school. I still can teach knife safety at a scout camp, a scouts house, etc. Just not at the school. There are also activities that would also not be allowed for common sense reasons - for example teaching cub scouts how to build fires (at least I don't think it's illegal at a school). Especially if done in the play ground area, parking lot or gymnasium. Even if I ask, it's probably not considered a good idea. However, I could still teach them fire building at scout camp, or other area considered safe to do such activities.

But what about an activity that has a higher level of risk associated with it that is not illegal? For example, lets say I have 3 very well trained leaders (one being the COR) in the art of repelling and my CO is a 4 story school. Nothing illegal at any level or against the G2SS (perhaps CO policies, but nothing illegal). What if I submitted a letter to my CO asking permission to do this act on the school grounds and received the following response "We are denying your request and furthermore request that you not pursue any training or further participation in this type of activity either ON or OFF our property", and it was signed by the IH (institutional head). I completely understand not being allowed to do this ON the property, but OFF as well?!?!?!

General Questions

1) Does a CO have the right to make this type of statement to a unit about their activities? Can someone please cite the source please.

2) If they believe insurance is an issue, how much skin does the CO have in the game (in terms of insurance) for an activity conducted by a unit off their premises? Doesn't that belong liability to the individuals, the trained leaders and BSA insurance (not necessarily in that order)?

I have already responded asking them for a reason why OFF has been specified and I am waiting for their response. BTW - I am using repelling in this email as an example, this is not the activity that is being halted.

Anyone else had to deal with this type of situation before?

Last 3 bridging ceremonies have been outside in March -

Pack meeting held inside (warmer, dryer, etc). Cub master instructs all in attendance to fold arms and walk outside with the indian (like you would walk from parade field to council ring at summer camp) in silence. The hallway between the gym the outside door has no lights turned on. Instead of smudge pots, we have boy scouts holding candles lined down the hall. Once outside we have smudge pots leading to cross over area. After all the cubs are outside and getting settled down, the indian that lead the cub scouts outside whistles to the rest of the indians used in bridging and the rest of the troop to join him at the fire.

Outside we have traditional wooden bridge. Behind the wooden bridge are 2 larger fires (one each side of the bridge) and 12 smudge pots for the 12 points of the scout law. They are lit with explanations accompanying them. From there it's a fairly traditional bridging ceremony; each boy and parent crossover, the neckerchiefs are swapped and newloops are put on.

I think we have 4 indians used for the ceremony; the specific text used is up to the den leader and pack/troop liason to work out.

I agree the job is exactly what you make it (can you guess my role)? I am a very active in all 3 units I support (pack, troop and crew). Our CO requires the COR to also be the treasurer, so I have a double role w/i each unit. I teach at our pack day camp, go to camporees and summer camp with the troop, attend all the montly committee meetings and just recently completed my wood badge tickets 2 mos ago.

My DE isn't quite sure what to do with me, I am the only COR he actually even knows (we are in a large district). BUT - I don't do much at the district level; my heart and committment is with the youth. I do set the tone for each year's program and groups indulge me by letting me cook dutch oven meals at various functions.

My role allows me to be involved with youth of all ages and experience all facets of the scouting program. I work my one hour a week 11 months of the year. I do take November off every year for myself.

I have made the job mine while meeting the needs of the units.

This is the first year in about 5 years we are not doing it just like the others posts have suggested. The idea was to get fathers involved or some other male role model. The first year one den used cake blanks (this allowed the boys to do it in a den meeting setting, it was only a decorating contest), but the rule was amended the following year - it had to be edible.

We had several categories - most scout like, best of theme, most patriotic... very similar to several of the pinewood derby categories we have. The boys were able to do some judging and the parents were allowed to do some judging.

We did this in lieu of or as our Blue and Gold banquet. We had some issues getting everything organized a couple of years prior and this seemed to eliminate the problems completely. The only reason we are switching back is due to 100 year anniversary and the parents want a change.

We have all returned from our summer breaks and gotten back to more regular meetings and the such. However, I am not seeing much chatter (on this board or others) on what impact on the "memorandum of mutual support" with AHG really means. I had expected this topic to be discussed a bit more once summer was over. So I have two areas of questions I want to throw out for comment.

How many BSA units are chartered at the same place they also have AHG? Are you actively seeking to work with them; or them to work with you? If not, are you planning to? Why or why not?

If you did decide to work with a AHG unit, what types of activities would you consider (or not consider). Would you prefer they work with the troop OR a crew if you have one; would it matter? Has anyone had any input from their council or district on this front?

Baden Powell's Mafeking is one we usually do, especially after a few camping trips with the new scouts. They get to put into practice what they have learned.

The adults set it up during the day and then either run stations at night OR just make sure they are on track and not getting lost in the woods at night.

Our troop mixes it up whether we act as a patrol or not on campouts. But the one thing we do, which I have not seen here is for our Webelos II at their weeklong summer camp. We only have a couple of "free" adults that go to the mess hall with the boys, however, the rest of the dads act as a patrol. This shows and teaches both the boys that will bridge over what it's about AND it also shows the dads what their sons will be doing next year.

We have a duty roster posted, they see various dads doing different jobs. No POR or titles, but they see how things are supposed to work. We also actively talk to the boys about what we are doing and why. The Webelos have their own chuck box, wash buckets, etc. When they hit the troop you get a lot of 'Oh yeah, I remember when....."

We have done cubmobile races a few times and had a blast doing it. I have a handful of recommendations.

Safety, safety, safety. In addition to the clothing you mentioned, we added a safety belt to hold them in the car. You also need to find a good location that is safe and has the slope you are looking for. Easier said then done. Some of the places I found wanted to charge us to use it and some never responded. Our best luck as been using church parking lots. One of the churches we used had their own cub pack, we invited the leaders and who ever to come out with us for the day. You should start looking now if you don't have a place.

We also found a couple of local tire stores that would trailer out used tires for us to line the outside of the track to the cub mobile had some place to crash into. Added to the realism and they were glad to do it. Boys also liked rolling the tires back to the trailer when we were done.

We usually combine a couple of dens to do it. Our dens have about 20 boys each; with 75% showing up we had 30 boys in the races. We also have each boy make their own car. We have been able to get the "kits" down to about $20 each. This includes wood, nuts & bolts, 4 wheels and a hand brake. Because not every parent has the ability to drill out some of the more difficult holes (end of 2x4 to hold 6" lag bolt which is the axle, for example), I precut and predrill all of the kits for the boys. It usually takes me a Saturday to make the 30 - 40 kits I make.

One thing we have added is a "turning govenor", these are a couple of blocks of wood to prevent the front axle from being turned too much and the boys flipping the cars over. I screw these on myself to make sure they are on correctly. Again, safety.

In addition to the double elimination races, we also set up a course to see how quickly the boys can navigate a twisted course laid out with the tires above. Fastest time wins. Since every boy has their own car we also have static awards for fastest looking, best use of stickers, etc.

I do have a few boys in my dens that can not afford the car even @ those prices, so I make a few extra cars and bring them to the race and tell them to show up anyway. They usually come and get a real kick when I give them a car to race that day. I usually do something fancy like put spoilers on the cars. Need an excuse to play in my wood shop sometimes.

We tried the push start, but that has given way to the boys using their hands to push on the ground the first 20' of the race track. This has worked the best. NOTE: Make sure they wear gloves, asphault can get HOT! We keep toying with ramps to roll down from, question is where to store them for the other 364 days a year?

We have also been able to secure some pennents, race banners and other items we use @ pinewood derby. We place these along the track for more realism.

Have spare parts - We have had a couple of cars break. Since I make all the kits, I have spare parts and I can replace a part very quickly. I don't want to have a kid bummed out because of a weak piece of lumber.

My kids still play with their cars out by our house.

I used to be a RAVEN, a Good 'ol RAVEN too...

And now I'm finished RAVENing... I don't I don't know what to do...

I'm growing old and feeble and I can RAVEN no more...

So I am going to work my ticket if I can...

Back to Gilwell.. Happy Land.. I'm going to work my ticket if I can...

Michael

C-03-08 (Week long course)

Not sure where in Missouri your son is attending college, but I have been wanting to bring a couple of younger ASM into the fold (most of my graduates go off to college and it's not convenient for them to be around). If he is interested, have him send me a private message to me so we can talk. I am in the Greater St. Louis Area Council.

I am the COR of a crew as well and I am having the "numbers" problem. I have been trying different things, but many of them "have their own life" and the crew doesn't seem to fall high on their priority list.

That was about the fuel mileage I was guessing at. We typically have at least 50 - 60 people (youth and leaders) going camping and the such. That is usually 8 vehicles which is about $200 in fuel for 100 miles round trip. We think the bus would be about $50. Plus all the boys would be together and we could do things together on the way.

Anyone have any strong opinions on where to obtain a bus, new or used (type of place, not an exact business)? What about leasing a bus instead of buying for just the longer trips and using cars for the shorter trips.

Our unit is toying with the idea of purchasing a bus or people movers for events (both local and far). We know we'll need to do fund raising and the such. My questions are more of a elementary or "how did you do it" nature.

We know that we will need people with CDLs. We already have that covered. Our CO has a couple of buses already, but they always seem to be booked when we want to borrow them (hence our desire to obtain one).

1) Where is the best place to obtain a bus (which also begs the question new or used)? What kind of costs am I looking at to obtain one?

2) What are annual maintenance costs associated with a bus?

3) Has anyone tried to have the CO pay to maintenance for the bus with the right to use it when you are not, but the scouts get first priority. I am aware every CO is different, but I am interested if this relationship can work.

4) What is the size that seems to work best for scouting functions?

5) Should you try and pull a trailer with it or not?

6) Do parents or leaders ever have a problem with the lack of seatbelts that buses sometimes present.

7) Do we remove some of the backseats for gear storage or leave all the seats in and use a trailer

8) With the fuels costs going up like they are, do you find you have more adult volunteers since there isn't wear and tear on their car or fuel costs?

What else do I need to be aware of or consider before moving forward

I am COR of a pack and troop. We are blessed to have 3 trailers each of different sizes for different needs. Some of our older youth are multiply registered with specialized crews that I am not COR for. There is an event coming up where 4 of our boys and one of our ASM will be attending with the other unit they are with. They would like to borrow a trailer (with a few other pieces of gear). We currently have no plans for that gear that weekend, so there is not an issue of us needing it, but I am curious if there is anyone with experience loaning equipment out. Does it work out, build relationships OR does it usually cause problems?