Merlyn_LeRoy

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">> Merlyn can correct me if I'm wrong here, but being Atheist does not mean without morals."

Right.

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"It does mean you have no firm basis on what is, and isn't, moral. Without something outside your own frame of reference, anything can go if you decide it is ok."

While those who are religious, such as the Sept. 11 terrorists, have such a firm basis on what's right and what's wrong that they're willing to kill themselves and thousands of people if they think that's what god wants.

Religion only gives you the illusion of an outside frame of reference. Tell me, is polygamy moral? Some religions say it is, some say it isn't. Whose god is right, whose is wrong?

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"I would so enjoy to have you respond to my previous post. Please tell me where the ACLU was when it should have been doing this. The post is copied below for your convenience.

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Still, I think the ACLU has more important things to do with its time. In my area, a public school invited a group of Tibetian monks to talk about Buddhism at a school assembly. I didn't hear so much as a peep from the ACLU.

Our public university distributes funds that the students are required to pay to groups that students do not believe in, such as homosexual activist groups and atheist groups. Several students went to court to stop this; where was the ACLU then?"

What did the ACLU say when you talked to them about this? They aren't omniscient; they need to be informed by people of possible rights violations. I assume that you, being concerned with possible civil rights violations, informed them immediately, right?

That's the best way to determine the ACLU's position on an issue, you know.

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"What about public schools who have bible study groups along side of gay rights groups & Wiccans?"

Those aren't being RUN BY THE SCHOOL.

I'm talking about a youth group RUN BY THE SCHOOL ITSELF.

If the SCHOOL is the chartering partner, they are responsible for approving the pack/troop leadership; the BSA expects the chartering partner to exclude atheists, and a public school can't discriminate on the basis of religion.

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"Atheists and others will argue that morals are relative. After all, without the major faiths of world, who's to say what is right or wrong."

WITH the major faiths, the problem is actually worse; for example, is polygamy right or wrong? Some religions allow it, some prohibit it; some even require it under certain circumstances. How do you say what is right or wrong then? No matter what you decide, you'll be going against some religion, and the followers of that religion won't ever change their views, because doing so would be admitting their god is either wrong or doesn't exist.

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"By not letting a religios group, regardless of the religion, meet in a public school is prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Letting a group use a facility isn't endorsing the group."

This whole topic is about public schools CHARTERING Scout units, which (as I made clear waaay back when I started this topic) is not at all the same as Scout units meeting in schools on the same basis as other community groups. When you have a school running a "no atheists" youth group, that violates the establishment clause.

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"You will notice the 1st ammendment also has "freedom of religion" in it."

No, it doesn't:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The concept of "freedom of religion" is there, but not the exact phrase.

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"Nowhere in the entire constitution do you see "separation of church & state." "

Just like "freedom of religion", the concept is there, but not the exact phrase.

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"What you do see is the state is not allowed to demand a religious belief nor are they allowed to hinder a religious belief."

The state is also not allowed to promote belief over non-belief; see Everson v. Board of Education or Torcaso v. Watkins.

Let me ask you: do you think it would be legal for a public school to run a youth group that excluded Jews? I'm not asking if you think it would be good, or likely to happen, just legal.

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"Religious beliefs, or lack of them, are values that can change in each of us. Boy Scouting picking its values is no different than other groups picking their values: the Sierra Club would certainly not accept its leaders if they advocated strip mining or clear cutting, and the NRA would not accept its leaders supporting gun banning. Beliefs such as religion should not be factors where views are irrelevant, such as in most employment and housing cases. But values-based organizations, whether the Boy Scouts, Sierra Club or the NRA, etc., should be able to set its values, and not be yelled at as being prejudiced."

I'll criticize the Boy Scouts just as I would a youth group that admitted all boys except for Jews; I would especially criticize such a group that said only non-Jews can be "the best kinds of citizens". It wasn't so long ago that "no Jews" organizations were common enough to have their own euphemism: Restricted clubs.

If you want to be part of a discriminatory organization, you'll have to learn to live with criticism of those policies.

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"I just spoke to a friend who is a Scoutmaster and a government lawyer. When I told him about the charters to public schools he could not believe that any council could be that foolish to let this happen."

I'd say EVERY council has done this; by the BSA's own figures, there are about 10,000 chartered to public schools or other gov't agencies (like fire depts).

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"You state that Exploring has removed duty to God, I don't have any knowledge about Exploring so I will ask about that."

The BSA split & moved Exploring into Learning for Life and renamed the other part "Venturing" (which still excludes gays & atheists) back in 1998 or so. There is no 'duty to god' requirement to join Explorers any more.

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"From what you've said the only thing you don't associate with is the word God. I always thought that a person had to believe in something."

I *believe* things; gods aren't among them.

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"Now the fact that each atheist believes something different is what seperates it from a religion?"

No; atheism isn't a religion, just as "theism" or "trinitarianism" aren't religions. They may be creeds of particular religions, but they aren't religions in themselves.

Some religions don't require belief in gods (e.g. some forms of Buddhism), so you can be an atheist and be a member of these religions.

Oh, I think you were asking about the Scout requirement about the pledge, not schools. I think the requirement is to 'know' the pledge, not actually 'take' the pledge, since non-US citizens can belong to a Scout troop and it wouldn't make sense to require them to pledge allegiance to the US, as they aren't US citizens, and some countries might even consider their citizens taking such a pledge to the US to be illegal.

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"Can you show me in the Constitution where it states that if a school sponsors a religious group, that's illegal?"

The 1st and 14th amendments, assuming you're talking about schools run by the state government. The 1st amendment prohibits the federal government from establishing religion, and the 14th extends this prohibition to state governments, so public (state-run) schools can't sponsor religious groups.

Why would anyone WANT a public school to run a religious group, anyway? Is this something you would like? Some schools run "no atheists" youth groups, some run "no Jews" youth groups, some run "no Muslims" youth groups, some run "Christians only" youth groups, some run "Southern Baptists only" youth groups, some run "the-same-church-as-the-school-principal only" youth groups, etc. Do you really think this would be a GOOD idea? I think it would be horrible.

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"If you remove God from the requirements and Scout oath, are you going to remove the requirement for saying the Pledge of Allegience?"

It's already illegal to require children to say the pledge of allegiance; see West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette, which was way back in 1943 (even before it had 'under god' in it).

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"Merlyn -- serious question because I'm curious, how does the atheist handle the saying of the Pledge of Allegience?"

Different ways. I just omitted the 'under god' bit.

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"One more question -- should Girl Scouts be allowed to recruit during school hours? They also have "god" in their promise and they do not allow boys to join (men can be co-leaders and hold other positions). I do not know if they let atheists join and say something other than the promise."

I don't think ANY group should be allowed to recruit during school hours, as that isn't what school is for. The GSUSA allows members to substitute different words for 'god' in their promise and allows atheists; this change was made in 1993.

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"I have been a scout leader for many years, and do not believe that we propagate prejudice, as at no time do I or others I deal with in scouting state that athiests or gays are evil or wrong, but that the conducts or beliefs are not consistent with the organization."

I disagree, since the DRP (which all BSA leaders must subscribe to) states that only theists can be "the best kinds of citizens"; that directly implies that atheists CAN'T be the best kinds of citizens. I'd say that's teaching prejudice.

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"Some day, the lad might become enlightened (or maybe his mom will get a clue) and develop a belief in a higher being (which nobody is trying to define for him or rank order by desirability), at which time he's welcome to join Scouting."

You really have no idea how arrogant this sounds, do you?

If the BSA excluded Jews, you could make the same "argument" on how Jews aren't wanted until they "become enlightened" or their Jewish parents "get a clue" and become good & proper Christians, and then the formerly despised Jewish boy would be welcomed. Oh, how nice.

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"Even though my idea of what a spiritual being is may differ greatly from what others believe, I still feel that whatever you believe in would fall under the definition of a God."

Well, I don't.

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"Now for another question. You say that you were a Scout, are you a Scouter now? Are you involved with the Scouts in any way?"

No.

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"Having been associated with the Scouts do you feel it is a good organization for youth?"

No; I feel it propagates prejudice against atheists and gays, and is a thoroughly dishonest organization, as shown by its government charters.

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"Do you think it would serve more if the "God" requirement was removed?"

Yes. There are WOSM Scouting organizations (such as Switzerland and the Netherlands) where the god references are optional, and atheists are freely admitted.

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"Don't everybody go crazy just yet! This is just a very interesting discussion. I'm quite sure the BSA would stand to lose a large portion of it's membership if it did drop the duty to God, so I don't think it could happen."

What if it were optional?

The BSA dropped 'duty to god' with regards to Exploring (by moving it into Learning for Life), and I haven't noticed a drop in Explorer membership due to that.

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"Am I right in believeing that an atheist does not believe in any supreme being?"

Correct; the simplest definition is "an atheist is not a theist".

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"And in that case am I right to believe that an atheist considers the scientific answers to all the questions of the universe?"

No. An atheist is just someone who isn't a theist. An atheist could be completely ignorant of science, or believe in any number of unscientific crackpot ideas.

You can't make any other assumptions from a person's atheism; some atheists believe in ghosts, some believe in reincarnation, etc. While these positions aren't common among atheists, you can't assume it. For example, an atheist from India might be more inclined to believe in reincarnation because that's a common belief in India, and it doesn't neccessarily require belief in god(s).

Part of the misunderstanding is a common theist assumption that:

1) my god is responsible for X

2) this person doesn't believe my god exists

3) therefore, this person must not believe X

..when, in fact, someone who doesn't believe in your god may believe X due to other reasons. An atheist can believe in reincarnation, just as long as it doesn't involve gods.

If you met someone who believed elves created rainbows, and you said you didn't believe in elves, they might assume you also don't believe in rainbows, even though the connection is only due to THEIR assumptions. THEIR assumptions don't apply to you, just as a theist's assumptions don't apply to an atheist.

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"I think the ACLU has some much bigger battles they could be fighting instead of this. I've been discriminated against because I'm female. I was raised in a family where discrimination is a way of life --- based on race, color, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc. I've seen both sides."

The ACLU is battling religious discrimination by government agencies; when a public school becomes a chartering partner with the BSA, they are running a "no atheists" youth group, which is unconstitutional. If schools can run "no atheists" groups, they can run "no Jews" youth groups, too.

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"I do not think that BSA recruiting or being chartered by public schools is a problem. BSA is being attacked because they publicly state their policies. This is very sad. Our school also allows church services in the cafeteria every Sunday morning. I have to meet certain requirements to go to "belong" to that church. And it is more "discriminatory" than BSA."

The school isn't RUNNING the church services, they are ALLOWING the church to meet on the same basis as any other group, and would have to allow an atheist group to meet also. Find an example where the public SCHOOL is conducting religious services.

If the school CHARTERS a BSA group, the SCHOOL is running the group, and is discriminating on the basis of religion.

My interest in this is as an atheist (and former scout) who is not going to allow government agencies to discriminate against atheists by chartering thousands of BSA units that exclude atheists.

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"Schools in my area run FCA groups, fellowship of christian atheletes. This is run at the school by school advisors."

If the school actually RUNS the group, that's illegal; but it's probably just allowing it to use school facilities on the same basis as any other group, and would have to allow a fellowship of atheist athletes if people wanted to start one.

Having physical requirements for sports doesn't violate the constitution; if schools recruited for sports and said "by the way, Jews can't join", then you'd have a problem.

The BSA's religious discrimination is the problem, and I certainly don't agree that they've done more than, say, the ACLU the hinder discrimination, as the BSA has gone to court to practice discrimination.

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"But I don't think that the Powells should have sued either. She could have handled it far better than saying to her son "They don't want our kind."

Well, her statement was true, and the judge found that the school actually violated Remington's civil rights. And civil rights are certainly worth litigating in my opinion; you're essentially saying the Powells should have accept this violation of their civil rights.

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" I believe that the ACLU, if it cares about civil liberties, should support the Boy Scouts in their right of association, even on public property, as a fundamental civil liberty."

It DOES. This was about a public school allowing a religiously discriminatory organization special access to recruit during school hours to a captive audience of 6-year-olds who could not be expected to distinguish between school officials and scouting officials inviting them to join a fun club advertised as being open to "all boys" and then finding out their religious views were unacceptable.

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Merlyn LeRoy

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"Merlyn, you have sidestepped my question."

No, I ignored it, because I already answered the same question when oldgreyeagle asked a similar one.

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"I was very specific, inquiring whether Boy Scouts should be able to recruit IF other groups, such as athletic leagues, get to."

Boy Scouts should be able to recruit on the same basis as any other outside religiously discriminatory group; it doesn't sound like the groups are the same, since you could be talking about a school athletic program (which obviously can NOT discriminate on the basis of religion, and which might be able recruit on school time if it's a school program).

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"So I will ask again: IF other groups get to recruit during school hours, would not prohibiting the Boy Scouts from the SAME ACCESS be discriminatory."

If your comparing apples to apples, yes.

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"I live in Portland, and know this case pretty well. I also experience the way the Portland Public Schools treats scouting at this time. I formerly handled the school recruiting for a Cub Scout pack in a school near the one in question. My kids would bring many flyers home, for all kinds of school and after school activities. Yet when I asked to have flyers given out for our Cub Scout recruiting night, many of the teachers would fail to distribute them. The teachers were making a choice that should be left to the families. And in case you are wondering, our use of the school in the evening for recruiting and meetings is done the same as any other group, and we pay the same. Equal treatment, not special."

So sue. Powell had to; it's taken nearly five years, and it isn't even over yet.

Of course, you realize that all organizations, even ones like the Klan Youth Corps (which does exist) will get the same access.

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Merlyn LeRoy

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"I can't figure out what I said that led you to believe that. I said THEY WOULD be discriminated against, but quietly."

It was the way you stated it without indicating that you were against it; after all, you've been arguing in favor of public schools discriminating against atheists.

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"I agree with Bob Russell, just been having hard time putting it in words. If BSA is denied access because of it's belief in God, isn't that discrimination?"

The BSA isn't being denied access, they're being denied SPECIAL TREATMENT. The BSA has been getting special treatment so long, losing it looks "unfair" to BSA supporters.

Recruiting during school hours is NOT something all other groups get access to.

Free use of school facilities when other similar organizations have to pay is NOT equal treatment.

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"Also rereading the definition of discrimination then the organization of Parents Without Partners is discriminatory -- you can't be married to join."

And as soon as public schools allow them to recruit during school hours, you'd have a point. Even if they did, it wouldn't mean the BSA would get to keep their recruiting, it would mean both organizations would lose it.

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"And I still hold that any school or government function held on Friday evening or Saturday is not right according this logic because there are recognized religious groups who call this time "Sabbath" and believe you should be praying, not partying, playing, etc."

Only if the government is deliberately scheduling these events in order to discriminate.

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Merlyn LeRoy

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"Notice the word "unreasonably". Forcing a child to stand in the hall while everyone else says the morning prayer, forcing someone to participate in a prayer they do not believe in, making fun of someone because of their religion, those are "unreasonable". Did anyone bad mouth this child or his mother because he didn't join Cub Scouts?"

So, you think it's legal for a public school to practice religious discrimination?

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"Our school do allow BSA to meet in the school building. Our pack is chartered by the local school"

Well, that's unlawful. Your Pack will lose its charter eventually, because public schools can't support religious discrimination.

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"But I bet you that a specifically non-Christian group (such as Wicca) would be turned away if they wanted to use school property. Maybe not being told why, but there would be some "reason" why not."

And if they got sued, the school would lose.

You seem to be in favor of Wiccans being discriminated against by your public school; do you want them to exclude Jews, too?

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Merlyn LeRoy

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"This just goes to demonstrate how far we have strayed from our founding fathers' true intentions and vision for our country. It's another example of how political correctness is corrupting our institutions."

Would you prefer that the US military have a list of "acceptable" and "unacceptable" religions, or religious views? I think that would be a complete disaster.

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"However, the Constitution does not explicitly state or imply that the government cannot endorse religion or the existing of God in general."

If the government has the power to endorse a belief in god, it also has the power to endorse the opposite.

And you might want to read Everson v. Board of Education:

""The `establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance."

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Merlyn LeRoy

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"IF the schools allow public access to ALL groups, and the scouting recruitment is done at night, when school is not in session, would the atheist presentation followed by the scout recuitment be ok? "

Sure. The public schools have to treat everyone equally.

There's more info on the Powell case at:

http://www.aclu-or.org/powellmain.htm

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Merlyn LeRoy

..."Some battles are worth fighting, even ones that may not seem winnable. Personally, I don't see it as a losing battle. I don't buy your interpretation of our Constitution. An Atheist who screams religious discrimination is paramount to a vegetarian complaining about the menu options at a steakhouse. If you want vegetables, don't go to a steakhouse."

Your analogy doesn't work; a steakhouse isn't run by the government. A vegetarian can open a vegetarian restaurant.

A PRIVATE school can allow Boy Scout recruiting during school hours.

I don't buy your interpretation of our Constitution. It's paramount to a Scout recruiter complaining about not being able to recruit at a public school. If you want discrimination, don't go to a public school.

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Merlyn LeRoy