Merlyn_LeRoy

Question to everyone pretending there's no problem: what happens when an atheist wants to join the CGAUX's official youth group?

The BSA has always said that atheists can't be members, period.  They get their membership revoked.

So what happens?

1 hour ago, mashmaster said:

I am confident that all the proper rules are being followed.  I personally know the National Commodore and Sea Scout program director.

Techincally in the charter bylaws that are signed by congress from many years ago as the official charter org of National Scouting the wording is there that allows for religious discrimination.

...

 

The BSA's rules and even 36 U.S. Code Chapter 309 (which doesn't mention religion at all) cannot conflict with the US constitution, which does not permit a part of the US government to have an official youth group that excludes people on the basis of religious belief.

This is the same situation where the BSA had to drop all public school charters for packs and troops.

No, the base problem is an organization of the government is using a "no atheists allowed" youth group as its official youth group and sponsoring their units.  It doesn't matter if that agrees with the BSA's guidelines or not.

Use Maritime Exploring Clubs, they're under Exploring/LFL and don't have religious requirements for membership.

No, it's a sure loser in court.  I've already notified the FFRF and the AHA, both of which file lawsuits to protect the rights of atheists.

The BSA simply can't be trusted.

Even the BSA's own documents on chartering organizations says the USCG AUX can't charter units:

https://scoutingwire.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Chartered-Organization-Resource-Guide_522-925_wb.pdf

In the section titled "Chartered Organization Code List" starting on page 125, it lists codes for various chartering organizations, and EVERY government organization has an asterisk, which is at the end of the list meaning "* Available to Learning for Life only"

Note this entry on page 126:

What six are ahead of atheists?  They no longer exclude gays, transexuals, girls, etc.

2. Reviewing every element of our programs to ensure diversity and inclusion are engrained at every level for participants and volunteers by applying a standard that promotes racial equality and denounces racism, discrimination*, inequality and injustice.

3. Requiring diversity and inclusion* training for all BSA employees starting July 1 and taking immediate action toward introducing a version for volunteers in the coming months.

(*atheists not included)

"Feel free to tell that to the units that have already been chartered over the last few months."

I'm sure the Freedom From Religion Foundation legal department and the Appignani Humanist Legal Center will be contacting the Sea Scouts and the CGAUX instead of individual units.

"I know this on actual fact, let me know if you would like to the National Commodore, I have his info."

I would, thanks.

"Any Sea Scout from any ship can join the CGAUX even if they are not in a Ship that is not sponsored by the Auxillary."

That's not what I'm talking about at all.

The CGAUX can't charter any Sea Scout Ships.  They can't have the Sea Scout program as their official youth program.

"Explorer Posts are part of the Learning for Life program on the BSA and can be sponsored by the Auxillary, Police, Fire, and others."

That's because Explorers don't exclude atheists.  The Explorer program USED to, but when the ACLU sued, the BSA split it into Exploring and Venturing (with Exploring being under L4L and Venturing still excluding atheists).

The Sea Scouts still exclude atheists.

9 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

Merlyn:  What the information you have means is that if the unit wants to call itself a "Sea Scout ship", the declaration of Religious Principals does apply.  If they want to call themselves an "Maritime Explorer Post", the declaration of Religious Principles does not apply.  An Auxiliary Flotilla can actually offer both registration status at the same time.  The Exploring program is a career-oriented subsidiary/membership category of the BSA that has no religious membership standard.  One of the reasons it was established was because of complaints of persons such as yourself, that government should not require a young person to recognize any religious principal in order to participate in programming.  So, a young adult who wants to be active with the youth program offered by a Coast Guard Auxiliary Flotilla can resister as either a "Sea Scout" or an "Explorer" and do the same things.  I might also mention that although Scouting had a "don't-ask-don't-tell" policy for about 20 years (eliminated movement wide-about 5 years ago), that never applied to Exploring either.  I was a Sea Scout and we never had religious content in our program, and I think that is typical.  If you have a young adult that wants to take advantage of our maritime programs, you can do so knowing she will be welcomed and will not have to recognize any religious principles.  

"An Auxiliary Flotilla can actually offer both registration status at the same time."

No, it can't.  The US CG AUX is part of the government and can't discriminate on the basis of religion by chartering any BSA unit that does not allow atheists.

"So, a young adult who wants to be active with the youth program offered by a Coast Guard Auxiliary Flotilla can resister as either a "Sea Scout" or an "Explorer" and do the same things."

But this is advertised as being only GCAUX and Sea Scouts as its official youth program.  Anyone looking into the Sea Scouts will see that you have to follow the DRP, and the government can't require that to join their youth program.

16 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

Funny, I looked at your posts and there is a common theme about being against anyone that is an Atheist. Sea Scouts still has the same chartering requirements as other BSA units. We are also respectful of the youth and others in the program to ensure all are welcome in the most difficult age of their life. We do hold interfaith services if that answers your question. But I do not require them to participate in the service. 

Teenagers already have a lot to deal with now.  I do not have them declare a religious doctrine when they join. 

The BSA requires that every Sea Scout Ship excludes atheists, which is not something the US Coast Guard Auxiliary can do.

-------------

Here was my message to the Sea Scouts:

Can you please tell me if Sea Scout units chartered through the US Coast Guard Auxiliary admit atheists as members and/or leaders?

Thank you.

This was the reply:

Fine with me, since UK SA was opened to atheists just a few years after he became Chief Scout.

So, I assume the Sea Scouts are allowing atheist members now, right?

On 2/19/2020 at 5:18 AM, Protoclete said:

Thanks - but, when did that change? Or is it that the charter is with the PTA instead of the public school per se, and they simply use the space? I've been overseas for over a decade, but it seems like most of the packs we had were at public schools.

The main change was back in 2005, when the Illinois ACLU pointed out to the BSA that public schools couldn't legally charter units that excluded atheists.  At the time, roughly 10% of all Packs were chartered by public schools (in Texas, it was 25%) -- this figure does not include PTAs/PTOs or private schools.  PTAs/PTOs can charter units and can meet in public schools on the same basis as other groups.

To get back to Protoclete's question instead of the usual bickering of theists lying about how atheists can't have morals...

On 1/30/2020 at 12:08 PM, Protoclete said:

I've never had a problem with a public school or an international school before.

You can't legally charter a traditional BSA unit (pack, troop, etc) to a public school in the US; as your initial post points out, that requires the school to exclude atheists, something a public school can't do.

It looks like some international schools in the US are private, and some are attached to a public school system; only the ones that are private would be able to charter a unit.

OK, when Tahawk or another member accuses me of deriding all religious beliefs with a vengeance in the messaging function, I'll reply that way.  When he accuses me in public, I'll respond in public, otherwise only one side is ever heard.

Quote

What some take as your humble attempt to free us from our folly, others take as vindictive. Same sermon, different interpretation, go figure.

No, if Tahawk wants to quote something I've actually written where I "deriding all religious beliefs with a vengeance", he needs to.

Otherwise, he's just lying about me.

Quote

Our resident atheist , of the non-religious variety, has not been here lately.  He takes care of deriding all religious beliefs with a vengeance.

Where have I done that, Tahawk?  Or are you just projecting how you deride atheists and Humanists?

I assume this is a public school -- maybe they don't want the school newspaper promoting a group that discriminates on the basis of religion.

4 hours ago, dkurtenbach said:

The Exploring career education program is part of Learning for Life, an affiliate of the Boy Scouts of America.

Now it is, yes.  It used to have the same "no gays, no atheists" requirements as the Scouting program, until it was pointed out (via lawsuits) that police departments, fire departments, etc. couldn't legally do that.

What is moral/ethical?   By whose example do you judge?  Atheists are certainly  prone to this.

Sure, but trying to say something like "I get my morals from my god, therefor atheists, who don't have a god, don't have morals, either" isn't valid reasoning, and is shown to be false by the existence of moral atheists.

with the possible exception of the Ba 'Hai ? and Buddhism?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence

I think a good first pass to find violence by religious view X is to look for where they are in power -- I don't think Bahá'í have been numerous enough to be in charge anywhere, and I don't see much organized violence by them, either.

Atheism points to Humanity as it's authority

While that's common, atheism per se doesn't assign any particular authority.

Try

https://www.atheistalliance.org/about-atheism/can-atheists-moral/

https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/ethics-without-gods/

https://www.thoughtco.com/atheists-have-no-basis-for-morality-248301

I'll just add this:

Can there be moral absolutes if there is no Giver of moral law in the first place?

Since people don't agree on what gods exist or even (if they agree on the same god) exactly what that god wants, "god-based" morals are also, essentially, subjective, because the god you end up following is a subjective decision.  And it's even worse, because so many people think they end up with objective morals, and they get at loggerheads with other people with different, objective morals.  The phrase "different, objective morals" is, of course, impossible if both of you really have objective morals, so this is a big hint that at least one of you is wrong.

Atheist Edge Youtube video from October 9, 2018

5 hours ago, fred johnson said:

You are so so so ignorant and not knowing what you are really saying. 

Typical BSA member insulting an atheist yet again.  It's possible I don't know what YOU are really saying, but I'd put that down to your incoherence.