Lisabob

I'm glad to hear it went well and that your friend/the SM have a common vision of where you think the troop needs to go in order to better serve the boys. Sounds like there could be some real drama along the way, unfortunately. Hopefully, the drama will be dispensed with quickly and you can all get to focusing on having a great program.

Moose, yup. So once again: if the BSA doesn't wish for controversy, then the BSA shouldn't have such controversial policies. Til that time when the BSA recognizes this simple fact, the BSA will continue to reap what it has sown.

rant on/

Calico, Michigan's Republican majority has been bent on fiddling away its efforts and time on many inconsequential things, this apparently being one of them. Keep in mind, we're (um) "blessed" with very, very short term limits in our state legislature and that has resulted in a lot of hyper-oppositional ding bats (both sides!) posturing and spouting off, but not much in the way of good, thoughtful, governance. And heck, since most of them will be term-limited out soon enough, they don't NEED to pay attention to voters, anyway. So nope, I doubt a call to any of the current majority folks would make a bit of difference; they're too busy foaming at the mouth about useless stuff, to pay attention.

rant off/

Brent,

Going back to the source: if the BSA doesn't wish for controversy, then the BSA shouldn't have such controversial policies. And they certainly could have handled the petition differently. Even had their public response been "we got this petition and so now we're clarifying..." that would have been better than "we had this super-secret panel that might or might not have actually existed and done the study we claim it did..." and certainly better than "this is what our members want" without actually asking the members.

Nope, the BSA brought this flurry of discussion and glare of spotlight on itself.

I don't know if I have really strong feelings one way or the other about this, but geez, doesn't Mr. Perez have something IMPORTANT to do? This seems like some rearranging of deck chairs to me.

If pushed to hold an opinion, I guess I'd say that there's some challenge to reflexively assuming that all BSA programs are all about Boy Scouts. Why not adopt the Cub oath for all? After all, many more boys are cubs, than are boy scouts...say that sucker every week for 12 years and you'll remember it just fine. And Mr. Perez's progression argument is silly. He can't be seriously saying that we'll just wait til the boys are done with Boy Scouts to start living the oath. Uh, no.

Still, I can't get all excited or worked up about this.

BSA-87 opines:

"Why are there 8 different Active Threads right now about the gays?

Really, this has gotten absurd."

Well I bet you know this, but here's your answer. Last week, somewhat out of the blue, the BSA publicly renewed its commitment to a membership policy that excludes gays. Their spokesmen then insinuated that this was the result of some sort of polling of the membership or relatively democratic process, yet there is actually very little (any?) evidence to support that.

The fact that there has been a lot of discussion since that public announcement is hardly surprising. If the BSA's top leaders had wanted to cause a tempest in a teapot, they couldn't have done a better job.

If folks don't wish to see this kind of public uproar and discussion, then folks should examine the organization's actions and policies that result in the need for such discussion, in the first place.

Honestly, I can't see what they thought to gain by the timing and nature of this announcement ("nothing new here, oh and by the way, we're still anti-gay!") Was it just a really slow week in Irving last week, or something?

And back to the topic at hand: Sally Ride has always been a person whose life and story I've deeply admired. Nothing's changed there, either. Actually, I'm pleased that the BSA would see fit to name an award after her.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

There's an international jambo going on around here this week, scouts from 17 different countries participating. Interestingly, none of their leaders seemed to be obese. Also interestingly, most of their leaders are in their early 20s.

I can certainly see how that would change a LOT of things about the older scout programs that they can offer.

jblake, FYI: the NAACP has always been open to people of multiple races, was founded by a racially diverse group of people, and in fact did not have a black president until the mid 70s. Probably not the best example for your point.

last I heard, we were now part of the "southern shores" council.

Funny, I thought pretty much all of lower peninsula MI was supposed to be one big old council, yet here I sit in SE MI not that far from Ken, and we're evidently in 2 separate councils, still? And roadkill adds a third? Confusing.

Seattle, that's not an extraneous issue. I would not be part of a unit where adults express their frustration by physically pushing other adults around. And so yes, I would be explaining to the current unit leadership that either they assure me this will be dealt with, or my family will do its scouting elsewhere. I also happen to think that when a family is serious about leaving, they ought to do a courtesy of explaining why to the unit's owners and key leaders. If the problem can be corrected, then that's great for all concerned. If not, then at least the family has given a head's up to the unit's owners and leaders, in hope that the problem might be handled in the future.

This isn't to say I think dennism's particular approach was 100% fantastic, but regardless, there's no excuse for this other fellow to be shoving people around. We might expect to deal with that sort of garbage occasionally from the boys; not from the adults.

Seattle, I agree that the leadership recruitment method I outlined isn't "ideal." Yet, it happens a lot. Don't tell me you've never seen a cub pack tell a group of brand new parents "hey, one of you needs to be DL or you won't have a den!" Heck, that's standard for Tiger dens practically everywhere.

But suppose I check references and get to know Johnny's mom. When I check her references, should I be asking them what kind of sex she prefers? As I get to know her via cub den meetings, at what point might I reasonably inquire whether she's a lesbian? Supposing it is Johnny's dad we're talking about, when exactly should I ask if he's married to another dude? Is the fact that I might not have met their significant other enough to raise suspicion? Do you have a standard hetero check form that I could use?

Barry says: "I dont see how this troop will retain 50 percent of its new scouts in six months. A couple more campouts like this and I would be looking for something more fun like sleeping late on Saturday morning. "

Well I do agree with that. And the food safety thing is no joke and did need to be addressed. The SM may not be fully aware of how poorly those left in charge oversaw their young scouts and delivered the program, in his absence. Dean should certainly have that discussion with the SM.

On the other hand, I don't think that parents of new scouts are well positioned to intervene with PLs on advancement issues or general program stuff. While again, I think Dean's observations are relevant, I don't think him stepping in and telling the young PL of his son's patrol what to do is a good way to go. This indicates that more training of the PLs could be in order, but it isn't Dean's job to do that training for his son's PL so that his son can get sign offs.

Recollection of being a new parent:

My son's first PL was a really nice kid who is about 2 years older than my son. The kid's scout skills were weak. So were his leadership skills. Turns out (I found this out much later), part of the reason he was assigned as PL of the NSP was to encourage him to up his game and give him a confidence boost. As a parent of a new scout under his care though, I was initially more concerned with my kid having a decent experience than with the growth of his PL. That was a difficult thing to watch.

By the way, it seemed to work for the PL. A couple years later, he served well as ASPL and then as a troop instructor, and I was very pleased to sit on his Eagle BOR later on. I did enjoy watching him grow over the years.

Several years down the road, my own son served as SPL for a year and I got to see things from another side. The younger/new scouts followed him around like puppies on a string and he came to understand how important his actions were, in their eyes. He did many things well, but he flubbed a few things, too. And some things were flubbed by others, but seemed like they were his doing because he was SPL.

When things got flubbed, it was most helpful for adults to have a behind the scenes conversation with him and to work through the SM to guide him. It was least helpful for random parents to be descending on him in the middle of things with (often contradictory or wrong or unreasonable) demands or 'advice.' And yet, by virtue of being adults, plenty of parents opted to do exactly that. Even when they were right, it was often not helpful because of the way they chose to do it.

So safety issues aside, I think we need to curb our own instincts to step in and tell youth leaders what to do, especially as new parents who might not have the credibility or see the full story yet. That doesn't mean we never say anything; it does mean we work with and through the SM and others when possible.

"I guess that I feel there is never a reason for any adult leader or scout to get physical with another in any way, shape or form. And I was looking for input on who I should talk to about this issue to help the troop move forward as this is an on-going problem. "

This is the kicker for me.

I would be talking with the SM, CC, and COR to explain to them that my kid isn't going to be in a program where adults solve their problems or vent their frustrations by shoving each other around (literally or figuratively).

Peregrinator, are you familiar with how most cub scout recruiting nights go? Here's my experience.

1. Flyers go out through the local school, local civic groups, local churches, etc. Ads in local paper/radio/whatever. Recruiting booths set up at back to school night, movie in the park night, and so on.

2. Round Up night takes place, often in the local school cafeteria or gym. Hordes of folks, many unknown to you, show up with a boy in tow who wants to be a CUB SCOUT!!!! (excitement!!!)

3. Boys go play some games while parents/grandparents/uncles/somebody fill out paperwork, turn in money, find out about uniforms, books, den meetings, upcoming pack events, etc.

4. Everybody comes back together, new cubs are welcomed a silly song or something is sung, and folks part ways til the next meeting.

Oh, and it may be that if one age group is large, the parents/whoever for that age group are all huddled together and told " you need to select a leader from among your numbers so that your boys can have a den. Let us know who you pick and we'll help you get started."

That's how it tends to go. Where, in there, should I check for the type of sex people like to engage in? At what point ought I to ask whether people's significant others have the opposite genitalia?

Now go down the road a little ways. The kids had a great year in their Tiger den. Lots of fun. A parent seems like the natural choice for Wolf den leader. Is this the point at which I should inquire about the parent's sexual preferences?

Because, I assure you, a great many parents neither know nor particularly care for the minutia of BSA policy, unless the pack has been trumpeting it from the rooftops - and most pack leaders I know would rather talk about just about anything else, except that, with their unit's parents. And as a den or pack leader, typically the last worry on my mind is who the kids' parents are sleeping with at night.

Edited to add: I've never attended a cub round up, or seen a recruiting flyer, that indicated "no homos allowed." Have you? In this day and age, it is actually the default assumption in most places that sexual orientation is not a bar to entry anymore. So yeah, it really is possible that LGBT parents and other leaders might not think twice about their sexual orientation before joining, or volunteering.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

Dean, I'm glad your son had a good time.

Couple of things.

1. You have identified some items that are definite concerns, and I agree you should have a good talk with the SM/friend about this.

2. but you might also want to seriously consider backing away for a bit. I do not want to make light of the issues you raise, but when you (as a parent, unregistered, and new to the troop) are telling a 12 year old PL to sign off on something for your son, you are probably too involved. This doesn't mean you're wrong, but there are other ways to address this that don't include new unregistered parents directing PLs around on advancement issues.

Talk to the SM. Share your observations. You have valid points. But next camp out, stay home unless you have a specific role to play at the camp out, other than parent.

I live in MI, where the local councils have been replaced by a nearly-statewide mega council. Since the new council doesn't yet have shoulder patches, the "old" council patches are still out there. My question: do those/will those old council patches be of much value, once the new council patches appear on the scene? Just curious mostly - I don't really trade, but my son does, occasionally, and he might want to stock up now, if folks think it's worth it.

So Peregrinator, are you suggesting that at recruiting night, pack leaders inquire into the sexual orientations of each parent who shows up with a boy who is eager to join the pack? Umm, no, I'm not going there.

Or are we supposed to somehow divine by looking at them, that this one might be gay while that one is definitely straight? My gaydar really isn't that well tuned.

Or do only boys who show up with both mother and father present (with matching wedding bands and the same home address?) to join?

Or....well you get the picture.

Maybe this is another reason to back away from the frequently-lampooned and shallow use of Native American lore as the basis for a scouting honor society. (I know this will upset Eagle92, but in truth a lot of folks in a lot of places just do this really poorly anyway.)

Hi Snug,

Better than letting the kids' moms know - let the KIDS know. Have the SM explain to them about the BSA's desire not to be used as a lure for other fundraisers. 14 year olds might say "well that's dumb" but they also ought to be able to understand, or at a minimum recognize the need to comply. And I do hope that by age 14, their mothers aren't still dressing them.

In this case, I'd say, let the boy run with it. This is how your troop has been handling the service hour requirements and it doesn't make sense to do an abrupt change right now without laying some ground work, first.

But for future, it sounds like the kind of thing where the SM and PLC ought to talk about what the intent of the service hours requirements are, and why your troop isn't doing some routine service projects a few times a year, anyway. After all, a Scout is Helpful.

If the PLC were to agree to add to its schedule a few regular service projects, or if it were to agree to do an hour of service of some sort at each camp out (I like that notion - leave it better than you found it!), then your problem with fake service, or insufficient service opportunities, would disappear. And as you said, you have a bunch of 1st Cl/Star scouts coming up through the ranks, so soon enough, Eagle projects will abound, too.

But this may be the work of several months, not an abrupt change right now.

Like anything, this could be done well, or done poorly. But let me give an example of why I think it could be helpful for non-profits and public entities to have a wish list, and to get some frequent (annual?) communication from the local BSA council about what an Eagle project entails.

A boy recently approached a camp that serves special needs children, asking if he might do his Eagle project for them. This boy knows the camp well, because some of his siblings have attended over the years. He knows the camp needs help on a variety of fronts, but of course he wanted to work WITH the sponsoring org to pick an appropriate project focus rather than simply telling them "I want to do X".

The camp hemmed and hawed. First, they weren't sure it was ok to have youth working on site. Then, they suggested to the boy that he maybe do some maintenance work (not project-worthy). Then the went the other direction and suggested that he re-roof all of the buildings (too much, really). The boy was doing his best to try to help them understand what the nature of Eagle projects might be, but they weren't getting it.

They were near the point of telling him that they couldn't accommodate his desire to help them. Then they had one of their semi-annual planning meetings, at which a Scout Leader who knew the boy happened to be present. They started in on discussing the long list of projects that needed doing and lo and behold, MOST of them were the sorts of things Eagle candidates might be able to do! The Scout Leader pointed this out to them.

The light bulb apparently got lit, because the boy ended up taking on one of those projects. I expect he'll do a great job. He is very happy to have found a way to help this camp.

It was really only serendipity that the Scout Leader happened to be at that meeting, and happened to know the back story. Otherwise, this fine camp wouldn't be gaining 6 new sand box areas for their kids to play in, and the Scout wouldn't have been doing his project for them, despite his desire to do so.

As for the planning aspect, the camp simply said "we need some sand box areas" and the boy is taking it over from there. There is plenty of opportunity for leadership to be demonstrated. It isn't like they handed him the plans, hired a crew foreman, bought the supplies, and told the boy to come out on Saturday to join the work party.

I'll split the difference and call it 12.

Honestly, Trev, I don't know if I could present the diversity segment in the WB curriculum, because I am not convinced that the BSA actually means it, based on current actions.

One thing that might help is if somebody from council would approach local non-profits with an explanation (in writing, but simple - one or two pages, max) of what an Eagle project might look like. We have many non-profits who know next to nothing about scouting, but who could benefit from an Eagle candidate's attention. Maybe a letter, going out once a year to local non-profit camps, for example, highlighting a few projects done by past Eagles, would grease the wheels? That way, when a Life Scout contacts a group, it would not be the first time that group thinks about what Scouts might do for them.

I am curious why you agreed to be SM of this bunch? And why you want to stay, if in fact you do want that?

Do you have the backing of your CO? If the CO is not involved, what circumstances led to you agreeing to be SM? (who supports you?)

Frankly, the things you are describing would cause me to find the nearest exit and look for a troop that welcomed my involvement. Unless there's some overwhelming reason for you to stay, I think you should find a happier place to contribute to scouting.

ETA: Ohhhh, wait a minute. Are you SM'ing because it is one of your WB tickets? Keep in mind the various admonitions not to set ticket items that require the active support or behavior of others, who are outside of your control. Sure sounds like that would be a challenge, here.

(This message has been edited by lisabob)

Hang on, if I'm SM in this troop I am not sure I want the parents of new scouts accosting PLs with "advice." Especially not the younger PLs, who might not have much savvy in deflecting well-meaning but over-zealous adults (not saying Dean is one of those, but we all see them from time to time).

I'd far rather that the parents of new scouts come to ME or some designated ADULT leader with their concerns, questions, and observations, than going to their son's PL. Let the PL do his job and lead his patrol - let adults deal with the parents.

But, Dean, your SON might double check with his PL on this.

Something to keep in mind: just because YOUR boy doesn't know the answers to those questions, doesn't mean the questions have not been answered within the patrol. It may be that because HE isn't the one buying the food, he didn't pay attention to who will buy it. It happens.

About the tents, it could be that this is being taken care of by the patrol or troop Quartermaster, or by the PL. While we might see a different way of handling it, it might be that the troop has a process in place for ensuring that there are enough tents. And who tents with whom is easy to figure out on the spot, if necessary. So unless they're backpacking and need to break up the gear so as not to overload any one scout, I wouldn't worry a whole lot about the tent assignments.

Ask yourself, what's the worst that can happen, and can you live with that?

(Here, the worst case scenario is that nobody buys food and they bring no tents.)

Well, ok. It is pretty unlikely that they'll go hungry all weekend. Either they'll be the mealtime guests of other patrols for the weekend, or some adult leader on the trip will take a couple of them on an unplanned food run to the nearest grocery store, or they'll get to eat PB & J for a couple of days, or...something. For tents, either they'll get an early start on learning to sleep w/o a tent (might become a hallmark of their patrol, who knows!), or some other patrols will triple up and free up a couple of tents for these new guys to use. And they'll have a bit of a laugh and learn for next time.