kraut-60

I'm siding with Brent on this discussion. Uniforming adds to the scouting experience...for those who insist it drives away potential scouts...maybe the uniform is doing us a favor then, as I beleive not every boy can or should be a scout...Really! There have been plenty of kids join my troop who were clearly not there to be scouts or have fun, but there to be rambunctious and promote disharmony among their peers.

I'd rather have 5 kids out of a 100 that want to wear the correct and complete uniform than 90 so-called scouts who feel others opinions about what they wear are more important than their own perspective of themselves...uniform awareness is knowing what a uniform can do for the boy, the patrol and the troop...and it starts with us, the adult leaders showing the way by being in full uniform...not close enough-good enough. And can the cost babble...I've given uniforms to families that cant afford them and those scouts wear them more than those who can afford them...I'm smoking what Brents been smoking...some of you turkeys should smoke 'em if you got 'em...........rant over!

mfish23; The SM and ASM insignia correct for 1974-77 would be as follows: green fully embroidered background/universal or"tenderfoot" emblem in full color/ Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster embroidered along patch's bottom in a curve/ Border and lettering for SM in silver grey thread...ASM in golden yellow thread. Trained status indicated by mylar silver border and lettering for SM, mylar gold border and lettering for ASM. A trained patch existed that sourced from the 60's, again fully embroidered red background with white lettering for Boy Scout leaders...a blue background with yellow for Cub leaders and a rarely seen dark green background with brown lettering for Explorer leaders.

The above described SM/ASM insignia were in use from 1973 to 1989...they can still be used on uniforms and I know one older SM who still wears his. Hope this helps.

Buy the "looks close enoughs"? What other parts of the Cub program are being cherry picked for convenience of the parents? Ok, most cubbies could care less about pants (so long as they have a pair on)...but when leaders do the "close enough-good enough for scouts" bit, well...it just goes to show that mediocrity is alive and well in some cub packs. Sports and Scouts are different, yes...but scouts has not(yet) practiced anything like the inflexible mandates that come as a standard part of most youth sports programs.

Buy the right stuff...are the seams only failing on BSA garments...or maybe, just maybe are kids being kids and tearing the snot out of the clothing as cub age boys are wont to do? Yeah, Wally-World stuff is kid proof...right! Its just cheap enough to not be too painful to have to buy again (and again, and again...)

A week ago wednesday, I was along on a training hike with 2 scouts and our ASM. One of the Scouts, a Life scout and OA member, and I were discussing the 8 methods of scouting and in particular...The uniform method. We are training for Philmont this summer and this was a 10 miler, so we had plenty of time to talk as we went.

The Scout was familiar with why we have a uniform method and still had questions as to what it contributed to the other 7 methods.

I answered him that I could see the other 7 methods as parts of a house or building, and that to hold all the parts together and protect them, we need to have siding and a roof. The idea that our uniform method serves the rest as a way to hold together and protect seems to me to be reasonably accurate, and it does seem to be the "glue" that holds the rest in place...the uniform is a visible public image that when seen immediately identifies us for who we are.

Well, for good or bad...thats my take on how I define the uniform method...what say you?

nolesrule; I want to say 8" to maybe 9"...I dont have mine with me here at work.

I doubt I could help "expand" any item refered to as a "yabo" or "yabos". I believe I first heard this term while seeing the movie "Animal House"...it was dialogue in the scene where Otter was explaining to Boon some of the better features of a girl named Marlene.

The term "Jabos" was used by the German armed forces during WW2 as a reference to Allied fighter-bomber type aircraft i.e. Jagd-bomber. hence the term JaBo.( jagd derived from the German word jaeger).

As for the suggestion that girls only get interesting if and when "yabos" are present...cant help you here...when I was a Cub Scout, Brownies were your own or some-one elses sister and were generally annoying and avoided. Brownies that were Betty Crocker or Duncan Hines were always welcome...'specially if they had no nuts!

The original SB's just plain worked...I could care less if they pilled, I bought 'em to use...not pose in and wear to a formal inspection. These pants are what is needed for outdoor wear, and they NEED to have the ankle zippers...sorry if I ruffle a couple of feathers here, but having to hem pants doesnt necessarily mean they had to lose the ankle zippers.

I bought 3 pair at the BOGO sale, and I had to get what I could in the waist size...at the cost of 2" too much in the inseam...bummer right? WRONG! Took said switchbacks to the local seamstress and had her alter the inseam by folding the material under the zip-off (the lowers)and seam it...Presto! 2" less inseam and the FUNCTIONAL ankle zippers are still intact.

Those who feel the ankle zippers are frivilous never had to hike at Philmont and zip-off the leg lowers of pants without the ankle zips, yup...off comes the pack and the boots...time wasted on the trail.

BRING BACK THE ANKLE ZIPPERS...function before fashion! rant ends

They get fed up with sports(of all types)taking precedence over Scouts. They have heard too many times that "Johnny" has a band/orchestra/choir/play committment he MUST be at.

They finally get the message that all other extra-curricular activities trump Scouting...they get tired of beating their head against the wall knowing that Scouting will offer more for a youth than sports or band in helping them become better citizens for their future, while the parents (continue to) insist that the instant gratification from sports will go farther than any Scout related experience in benefiting their son....yeah, Right!

Our Troop presently has: The Flaming Knights...the Rocks...the Godzillas...and our yet to find its name New Scout Patrol.

The Rocks very nearly were "The Hairball Coyotes"...the patrol yell was to be a howling followed immediately by hacking coughs. Why "Rocks' beat this one I'll never know.

We've also had "the Pallidins of the Flame"...whom the then SPL refered to as "people on fire".

I serve both as a Scoutmaster and Boy Scout Roundtable Commissioner.

I always include a copy of the Program theme in my "Roundtable Cribsheet", which is the name for the handouts I collate and print for distributing to attendees at our districts monthly RT.

I ask the Scouters in attendance each month to take the Program theme and give it to their troops PLC so they can decide to use the suggested theme if they(the PLC) chooses to in planning their troops activities.

My own troop uses the Troop Program Features and Troop Program Resources in its PLC monthly meetings...they do tend to pick and choose what they will employ from these pubs, but it is important that the PLC does plan the troops activities and meetings agendas.

I am no genius and havent stayed in a Holiday Inn Express, so I lean heavily towards implementing and continuing to use the Boy Scout program as provided in the publications and materials we are offered by the National Council...see, for me this alleviates re-inventing the wheel on a monthly or weekly basis.

What really makes me wonder is why some leaders deviate from a well prepared and standardized program that works...so long as you work it? I suppose they feel individuality and different ideas will serve our Scouts better somehow?

When Webelos Scouts visit the troop I am SM of, I have the SPL assign a First Class Scout to buddy up with each visiting Webelos Scout. This has been reasonably successful in portraying our troop as being boy lead, because the boys will take the prospective recruit around and interact with him while I and the ASM/CC/COR talk with the Webelos Scouts parents.

We dont pull a "Dog and Pony show" type of staged meeting to impress potential members and their families...we show them a normal troop meeting run by the SPL and PLs...the visitors are allowed to participate in the skills and games. At our most recent meeting, the troop held an SPL election while we had W2 visiting...the W2's thought it was pretty cool that the boys run the troop.

For my part of the meeting, during gathering...I demonstrated how to tie a woggle...then I let the SPL handle his meeting and I did a SM minute to wrap it up. I had the W2's complete attention while showing how to tie a woggle ( I also let it slip that the woggles I was tying were for the crossovers for the coming weekend...and we had 2 new Boy Scouts at the meeting who were presented their neckerchief and one of my hand-tied woggles).

I have all my First Class Scouts and higher ranks serve as instuctors and demonstraters of T-2-1 skills...this keeps it boy lead and taught and keeps the First Class and above ranks proficient in their skills.

The SM has his hands in his pockets, his mouth shut, eyes and ears open...the SPL and PLs are running things,... an absence of hover parents...and they look and act like Scouts.

Lisabob; In order to have a Boy Lead Scout troop, you must have a Scoutmaster who is a practicer and believer of the patrol method and who can develop youth leaders who will lead with confidence.

I support my PLC in planning and seeking activities that the SPL must present to the Troop Committee for approval. Our TC supports the boy lead model as it is the only way I will serve as SM.

During troop meetings,camp-outs and activities, the SPL will ask adults who are talking or interfering with his meeting to kindly remove themselves as they are a distraction.

We get a few raised eye-brows from new parents after cross-over when they notice that the boys are running their meetings and questions like " shouldnt someone be in there leading them?"...my answer is "someone is leading them...the boy they elected their leader". Hover parents are handled by having a veteran troop parent or uniformed adult leader physically prevent their interferance...I have guided my fair share away from "helping" their son.

Becoming boy lead will pose many challenges but it will bring many benefits when the scouts grow and become the leaders they are when simply afforded the place and ways to practice what we preach.

Curbing parental and adult enthusiasm to help in the wrong ways can be overcome by having that zeal re-directed by taking training, as you noted, you are the only WB trained adult in your troop...are the other adults at least FastStart,NLE,SM/ASM,OLS trained? Are the TC members Committee trained?

Having any adult wishing to go along on patrol/troop outdoor activities take the training we as SM/ASM and TCs will go far in shooting down any "hovering" and "hindering" adults. Hope this helps

This thread makes the case for allowing a patrol to hike without adults along...as 1st class to Life scouts, they should be capable of taking on and carrying out a patrol activity without any adults there to "lead", "hover" or get in the way of the BOY LEAD end we should be working towards.

Before any pundits bring up G2SS...patrol activities that are SM approved and dont hinder or conflict with troop activities are indeed allowed and should be strongly encouraged...this is Boy Scouts after all...read the strip embroidered over the right pocket...it does NOT say "Adult Scouts of America"....yet

Anyone who would knowingly adorn his/her uniform with emblems representative of achievments/ranks that he/she had neither been awarded or earned is beneath contempt.

A Scout is trustworthy

An adult leader who misrepresents themselves by laying claim to accomplishments and accolades they are not entitled to should have their membership revoked....they offer nothing that would contribute to furthering the Scouting movement.

This instance that opened this thread clearly illustrates the need for accountability in keeping accurate records of registered Scouters training and awards. Phonies dolled up to try and impress will only fool the folks not yet familiar with Scoutings trappings...but will run afoul of those of us who have been around a campfire or two, therby revealing themselves for what they are...fools and liars.

Ea...you pretty much answered your own question...I would take it that we serve the CO. However, I prefer to see that I serve with other like-minded adults to serve the youth members of our troop.

Our CO is a Methodist church's Mens Brotherhood. we have a good relationship with our CO, but occasionally we hear some minor heartburn from someone in the congregation who isnt any kind of supporter of Scouting...last complaint was for a ripped open sugar packet that was left on a table in the kitchen...I'm sure it wasnt done maliciously, but some of these congregants have lots of time to nit-pick and find stuff to P&M about...this generally seems to be the older ladies domain of complaints.

I had seen the "secret" cooler come out only once in my Scouting experience and it was on the first Pack overnighter I went on with my son when he was a Wolf Cub Scout...I was a bit shocked, I expected better behavior from Scout leaders...the tobacco was prevalent too after the lights out was in effect and the adults stood by the dying fire having a sip and a smoke.

I dont begrudge anyone from responsible use of intoxicants, so long as they're used in the proper venue...and ANY Scouting activity doesnt count for a proper venue at ANY time.

By deanRx's reasoning, one is ok...right? So is one joint ok? This shouldnt even need to be asked...use of ANY substance by an adult accompanying Scouts irregardless of when and who is present or not present, IS PLAIN OUT WRONG!

If any adult cant go without there "fix", be it no more than booze, or worse...well then maybe there is a issue here of dependancy.

I dont care for the line about "being asked to be a leader over a drink"...you needed to get a buzz to make up your mind to serve as a role model and leader to youth?

I dont begrudge anyone from enjoying a drink and feeling the effects. I dont think less of ones who have smoked...but dont do it around kids...by sneaking off, some may feel they have it hidden well enough, but kids are far from stupid...they know what you were doing out by the fire/in the parking lot/taking a walk in the woods/etc...

Hal, after they get the shoreline...send 'em down to the fireroom for a bucket of steam and then over to the engineroom for some relative bearing grease.

I hate to leave a warm sleeping bag as much as the next guy...but I would be real careful to ensure the bag has a diaper in it and not the sandwich or danish for breakfast...Yeah, yeah..I know, no food in tents.

WOW!....I never would have thought my question that launched this thread would incite such a passionate polarization that seems to separate us so severly.

Heres my stab at a Boy Scout solution that may have a chance to have us all be Win/Win if it would be sucessfully implemented and supported by Coaches, Band directors and Scouters.

Athletes/sports team members: Have a patrol where all scouts who participate in sports are members. Contact coaches and let them choose to form their teams as Varsity Scout troops with your support for the Scouting part, while the coaches cover the sport part.

Band/orchestra/jazz/chorus/jazz & marching band members: Allow all band member Scouts to wear "Musician" emblem with Scout uniform (positioned below patrol emblem on right sleeve of uniform). Help all performing arts students to pursue and achieve any and all related Merit Badge(s) that correspond with their given areas of interest and participation. Form a Scout band within your community/district and encourage participation in addition to existing musical commitments with support of area band directors.

I know some parts of my suggestion would bring about more involvement and work, but would be worth the effort and seemingly take Scouts and other worthwhile programs of extra-curricular activities down paralel paths towards mutual solutions to permitting our youth maximum benefit from all areas they seek participation within.

Okay...it says "In God WE trust" We, as in all of us...WE. I'm good with keeping the inscription the same. I trust God and she trusts me...maybe a few coins could say "In Kraut WE Trust"? Nahh, if anything we could add "All Others Pay Cash". Hey theres an idea, personalized money! The mint could make a personalized coin on a custom striking, but you'd have to get a whole roll and the minimum cost would be say...$5 per coin?

Its done with M&Ms and license plates...........(British officer from Monty Python walks in) RIGHT! Enough of this twaddle! Get on with the next spot...Right! You there! Yes you!(kraut slinks off).

Both my mother and sister are breast cancer survivors...survivors because they caught it early before it could get worse...get the mamogram as soon as you can.

We had this come up last fall for two different events during soccer season. The first was a patrol camp-out where we were camping 7 miles out of town. I left it up to the parent to pick-up and return the scout after they finished their game. Had 3 members of the troop take off after breakfast and returned by noon.

The second was a troop day trip to a World War two living history event about 60 miles south of where we live. One scout was playing soccer that morning til 10am...the troop did a service project for 1 hour and visited the local flea market where a lady had a raptor and birds of prey display. We picked up the scout and went and enjoyed the history event.

I was not too wild about delaying the trip...dont get me wrong, I'm glad the scout got to go after his sports obligation. The bit that frosted me was the attitude I got from the boys mom who happens to be a big wheel in the youth soccer program...ie "you have to wait for him, he's playing SOCCER!" Like playing any sport is some holy obligation?

I have made allowances and altered times to suit the scouts who take sports before scouts, and I'm sure I will again...I dont like it one bit though...I'm fed up with scouts taking 2nd to anything else.

I'm really questioning the inflexible attitude regarding participation that permeates most youth sports programs. If I tried to instill the same "cant miss practice or you're cut" and "you're out of uniform, go get it on or you're off the team" attitudes with the troop I serve as SM...the parents would likely ask for my resignation.

I have an excellent SPL, when he is at a meeting or activity that has no conflict with his sports involvement. I have an excellent ASPL that often fills in for the absent SPL, but sometimes is absent as the schools music program schedules its concerts on the same night we hold meetings.

I am considering having any candidate for election to SPL be counseled by myself as SM, that if elected...I expect them to place their position as SPL above sports, band, etc... Way too often I have had a scout or their parents tell me they will be missing meetings while going out for whatever given sport is in season or the music program, whatever.

I am just fed up with everything extracuricular offered by the school trumping Scouting! I dont see where sports offers anything of greater value than what Scouts offers. Music has points that are valuble, but overall, I dont see how being a musician will give a boy better direction for the rest of his life. I know these programs are popular and have inherent value to those who are interested in what they offer, but I just dont get why a parent will have their son miss a camp-out that we DONT have every weekend...so their son can play in a game they have EVERY weekend during the season it runs for.

I was a band member as a youth...I was on the wrestling squad in HS (wasnt a good athlete, but coach needed a manager, I fit the bill), so I can understand how people enjoy what these activities offer...BUT, Outside of the gratification an active player feels as a result of playing and scoring...what is the pay off? I have seen many of the scouts out for a sport where mostly what they did was keep a certain part of the bench warm, while the "talented" athletes got all the time on the field. How would that be gratifying?

Okay, enough of my rant...I'm sure I'll be taking flak soon enough from the band boosters and sports fans, but I believe I have a valid point here...Why does Scouting seem to take a backseat to sports/etc??

Good 'ol staffers they are

Coming from near and far

on the courses last day

they collect up their pay

And head out for a critter-free bar