kd7kip

Our pack wears uniforms, no class B stuff. Boys can wear dark blue jeans or dockers with their uniform shirts, but after I bought my son the official switchbacks for his b-day, a couple other kids started wearing them.

I think one of the hardest things to get over with the official field uniform (at least for some people) is the psychological desire to treat it like a holy relic, keeping it pristine. But once you get it a bit dirty, wash it a few times, re-stitch a couple loose patches and such, I think it takes on the nice worn appearance which bespeaks of outdoor adventure.

-Scott

Basementdweller-

I agree. Funny, related incident that occurred just yesterday to me. Two of my daughters (9 & 11) finished their season of playing basketball in a community league. They had a lot of fun, but never once won a game. Nevertheless, home they came with very nice trophies, one each, and not the cheap gold plated plastic kind, but really nice engraved stuff. "What are those for?" I naively asked. "Playing basketball" they naively replied.

Scouter earlier quoted "The Incredibles" which jogged my memory of an old Gilbert & Sullivan lyric: "When everybody's somebody, then nobody's anybody."

As for the Millennial generation: I've been a manufacturing supervisor for the past 17 years, and can confidently tell you (having just completed annual performance reviews) that its not just the youngsters who expect a high rating and fat raise for performing to expectations. (To be fair, there are some very fine young employees as well-- must have been Scouts!)

-Scott

I was reviewing the Scout Leader Uniform Inspection sheet (like a good patch policeman) and I noticed this line: "Cub Scout leaders and female leaders wearing the official uniform shirt or blouse may wear one temporary insignia centered above the Boy Scouts of America strip." (Right Pocket, Temporary Insignia).

I assume this is since CS leaders don't wear Jambo patches?

-Scott

I really hate to hear of this sort of thing.

Recent case in point: We were aiming to get my Tiger den their rank by the B&G dinner this year, but due to very wet weather we couldn't complete our hike in time. One of the parents suggested "Can't we just walk around the block and call it a hike?"

No. No we can't.

Last weekend the cubs completed their hike, had a ball, and they'll get their rank at the April pack meeting. Hopefully they learned: A-Rank has to be earned (even for Tigers), B-Scouting is fun, C-"Do you Best" applies to den leaders and parents, too.

I firmly believe when leaders half-a** Scouting, we shouldn't be surprised when we get a bunch of half-a**ed Scouts.

-Scott

This is really appalling. I too was a victim of "Improved Scouting", crossing over from Webelos in 1975. The Scout Troop had no adult supervision and severely declining numbers-- I never went beyond Tenderfoot.

My Dad and older brothers had the manuals by GBB. My favorites are still the Scout Masters Hand Book (1967 printing) and the "Fieldbook for Boys and Men" (also 1967)-- I still read them. So much valuable, useful information! Though I never went beyond Tenderfoot in an organized troop, I pored over those old manuals and practiced the skills for years as a kid. (Having a Dad who was a forester helped, too).

My old "Improved Scouting" manual got tossed years ago...

-Scott

Twocubdad-

I agree. I feel Scoutstuff.org bears a fair amount of blame. They're always coming out with new stuff-- patches, t-shirts, hats and numerous trinkets. I think it risks creating an unhealthy sense of consumerism among Scouts. What does it mean when we say a Scout is Thrifty?

Also, I think it works against the Uniform Method when you have kids with all the bling, and those who can't afford it don't have it.

Alassa-

That's a running joke in our pack too: "I washed my hands!" "There's a patch for that!"

As I mentioned in another thread, my Tiger cubs don't bother to wear the Immediate Gratification things-- they have them, but after the first couple meetings, they stopped wearing them. (At least if they're going to issue them, they could make them smaller and less ugly!)

-Scott(This message has been edited by kd7kip)

Eagle-

Yes, after my previous post I did a little research on the web and see that you are correct. I also found that the Cub knots are of relatively recent vintage (80s or so).

It will be interesting to see Cub Leaders with keys & training awards. As I said earlier, I'm all for reducing the variety of knots, but certainly support people wearing them (within good taste).

-Scott(This message has been edited by kd7kip)

"As I recall, we had activities and projects all the time but you never got a patch or bead. You just did it and was happy to have done it. "

Yes, the activity-- the fun, the satisfaction-- was the reward! One of the reasons I hate the Immediate Recognition things (aside from the fact that they're cheap, huge and ugly) is they don't help develop a sense of delayed gratification in the boys. Besides, when you're handing out bling every meeting, a rank badge becomes just another badge.

-Scott

This is an old thread, but I can't help but add a few things:

-An official jacket for Cub Scouts (something inexpensive but uniform)

-Plain green uniform pants (no zip offs, no cargo pockets) but not the dress wool ones-- cotton is fine

-Official BSA Sheath-knife (like the old ones)

-Modern remakes of some of the old, official BSA gear (such as a modernized "Centennial Yucca Pack" in tan like the old ones but with modern fabric & features), official canteens, mess-kits, etc. Official gear like that fits with the uniform method, I feel.

How about fewer:

-Patches for everything under the sun.

-Branded merchandise for Philmont, Bechtel, etc.

-"Apparel" which is non-uniform wear. Do we really need all those t-shirts, hats, etc. A little is fine, but they seem to go overboard sometimes.

-Scott

I agree completely that the activities need to fun. To me, that is the absolute essence of Scouting, and is in often marked contrast to the pressures put upon children these days to "succeed" in school and competitive sports. I remember very well when I was a Scout how much I looked forward to each meeting-- it was always the high-point of my week (still is!).

I can't really say why the loops/pins are not more popular in our pack. They get promoted in our monthly newsletter, and the parents can easily access the info online. I bring the manual to our den meetings, and make it available to any interested parents.

My focus has been to make the advancement activities as fun as possible, and the boys really seem to enjoy them. Also, time is short and the advancement & elective activities provide a very full spectrum of opportunities for "fun with a purpose". Of course, that's part of the genius of the Scouting program: it can be tailored to the needs of the pack, den and individual boys. Supplemental programs, like Academics & Sports or the Cub Scout Family program, provide additional options.

-Scott

"That is too bad, many of the belt loops and pin criteria are are being completed while doing the rank and electives."

Exactly, so why the redundancy?

-Scott

keimel-

Thanks for posting the link to that pdf.

I'm a little disappointed, I must admit, that they're going to be using the Scouter's Key for CMs, and Scouter's Training Award for Cub trainers, etc. I have always associated the Green knots with Boy Scout programs, and blue/yellow knots with Cub Scouts. I do like the fact that they're consolidating all the Den Leader awards. All in all, I think its a move in the right direction.

-Scott

At the risk of opening a can of worms...

I was looking at my old Cub Scout uniform from the mid-70s recently, and showed it to my Tiger Cub son. One thing we both noticed was how few patches (in comparison to current uniforms) it had on it. Aside from American Flag, Community Strip, Pack number, Webelos colors and a council patch on the left pocket, there was rank and AoL, and nothing else. I never had a patch vest for overflow, because I didn't have any extra patches!

So my question is: When did Scouting become infatuated with patches? Is it a good thing or not? Do you think it excessive? I have my own ideas (expressed elsewhere) but I'd like to hear other's opinions.

-Scott

Interesting. Haven't seen this one awarded, but very few loops/pins are awarded in our pack (maybe 5 total since September in a pack of 45 boys).

The don't seem very popular-- the boys focus on rank and electives.

-Scott

Scouter-

Sorry to divert your original thread-- I started by considering knots, but veered off on uniform clutter in general.

I was reading through my old "Scoutmaster's Handbook" (1967 edition, the one my dad used to use when my older brothers were Scouts). It indicated that Scouters were not to wear more than five medals or knots on the uniform at a time-- their choice. I wonder when it became permissible to wear more? (Not that I'm against knots, just clutter).

-Scott

I agree with your suggestions. A couple more (as a Tiger leader):

-Get rid of the Immediate Recognition things for the Cubs. They're big, cheap, awkward and ridiculous looking. I mentioned to my Tigers, when I handed them out last Fall, that they were optional-- after a den meeting or two I haven't seen them.

-Get rid of the metal belt loops and pins. If they want, incorporate those activities into rank advancements or electives for arrow points, not more gew-gaws to clutter the uniform

I wonder if we streamlined the uniform, if Scouts would be more likely to wear them on hikes or other outings? Personally, I try to keep my shirt ready to toss in the washer as soon as I get home (though I do have a magnetic name tag on order for when I go to camp this Summer).

When I read my old scout manuals from the 50s and 60s, I see a far less cluttered uniform for Scouts and Scouters alike, yet there was recognition for what mattered: rank, POR, special achievements (knots and medals).

-Scott(This message has been edited by kd7kip)

I was thinking of this the other day-- how to un-clutter the uniform. Some ideas off the cuff:

-Get rid of "trained" patch. When one is trained up for a position, one is awarded the POR patch to wear, not before.

-Jambo patches go in the temporary location (right pocket). Never more than one temp badge, ever.

-For those councils (like mine) that use district patches, stop it.

-Get rid of the bellows pockets on all the shirts (and pants)-- they look sloppy. 5.11 tactical pants have central pleats which expand as needed. I aim for a "high speed, low drag" approach to clothing & gear; bellows pockets violate that approach.

-No more of the rings in the future (like the centennial ring) to go around the World Scouter patch

-Get rid of the Unit Award patches. Find an alternative if needed, such as (dare I say it) a knot.

-Get rid of the epaulettes-- are they essential?

-Lose the collar (in my dreams!)

-No more pins, like the Emergency Preparedness pin.

-Scott(This message has been edited by kd7kip)

This Knot business is an interesting topic. Since I've only recently become active as an adult leader in Scouting, I've noticed its a contentious issue for some. I have mixed opinions on this.

I agree with reducing the variety of knots. I don't really care for all the clutter I've seen on a few of the adult uniforms I've encountered. It seems to go against the uniform regs: "Members should make every effort to keep their uniforms neat and uncluttered". On the other hand, I firmly believe a leader who has done good work deserves to be recognized, and a few knots are not too obtrusive (especially compared to the proliferation of Jambo patches, OofA patches, Quality unit patches, trained patches, etc.)

I must admit I'm proud of my AoL knot as it represents many fond memories, and will proudly wear a dean leaders knot when/if I earn one.

Anyway, just some thoughts...

-Scott

Yeah, I saw the email, too. I guess that will influence my choice, and my wife can hardly argue the point! (Since she often uses the BOGO free defense).

-Scott

Good information.

I'm leaning toward Nylon, since it sounds like its going to be a cooler option when chasing down Tigers at camp.

-Scott

Greetings!

My name is Scott-- I'm happy husband and father of 6 (going on 7) kids-- two boys. My oldest is an Eagle, my youngest a Tiger Cub. I'm his den leader and I'm having a ball.

I come from a Scouting family: I was a Cub, earning AoL. My three older brothers were all Scouts and my dad was a leader back in the 60s. My father-in-law was a leader and Vigil OoA member, and two brothers-in-law were scouts, racking up many 50 and 100 mile hikes with their dad.

Interesting to see what's different and what's the same in Scouting since I was a cub, but that's another post...

-Scott

I'm just getting back into scouting after a few years hiatus (I was a Cub, my oldest boy is an Eagle, my youngest is now a Tiger and I'm his den leader).

I have the long sleeve poly microfiber shirt. It's not bad, but I'd like to pick up a short sleeve shirt for this Summer when I take the to Tigers to day camp (I'll be there all week).

Should I go Nylon Supplex or "Cotton Rich" poplin? Any thoughts appreciated...

-Scott

Jim-

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought the epaulets were in an odd spot-- at first I thought I might have purchased a women's shirt as the cut seemed a bit off. The Velcro for the vent seems useless as well. Nevertheless, not a bad shirt.

I'm please with the pants-- I bought the cotton ones and they seem fine (though they make everyone look kind of sloppy).

-Scott