johnsned

Thank you SagerScout and Eamonn,

I really appreciate your comments. I think you have looked at this issue fairly, I understand you don't agree with me but you understand my intentions. Like I said in my (many) comments, I know that people disagree with this policy; I can understand their point of view. I would never ask anybody to modify their activity to suit my particular needs.

This is only practiced in one of the three council Wood Badge courses, and this course was created for those that want separate sleeping areas.

I appreciate the contributions of women in scouting my wife is a Scouter too. I feel that a women place is anywhere she wants it to be.

Hello Mr. White,

I wrote you a private message to trying to explain my point of view, but I got no response so I felt that I should post this message. I can tell by your message that you were offended by what I have written on this topic, although I dont think that you read all of my postings on this. I am sorry I made you feel that so angry, I think you just misunderstand my point of view on this.

There are many religious groups that have express charge that married persons cannot attend an overnight trips/training course with persons of the opposite sex without their spouse. BSA National working with those groups wanting to make a way for those groups to be able to attend Wood Badge suggested said that a council could interpret separate sleeping facilities as separate campsites for their Wood Badge Courses. BSA policy calls for separate facilities when for coed camping with the sole exception of Family Camps. Is a tent a facility? Is a campsite a facility? Since there is no agreement on that, National and my Council came up with this option.

If for the first weekend if you were in a dormitory setting, would you have men and women share a dorm room? I think the comparison is valid, a dorm room isnt too much smaller than a camp site, and then the only difference is two sheet on nylon tent material, could you string up a sheet?

I too have been on Wood Badge staff many times. I am also working on a course that is not the one with separate sleeping areas. Since I am the odd man out so to speak, I, when it is time to sleep excuse my self and sleep in a separate area. I dont make a big deal about it and unless people ask me about it I dont think I need to make mention of it.

I have tried to explain why we have separate sleeping areas, not based on the value of women it is based on a moral code we chose to follow. I understand you can disagree with the our standards or our interpretation of morality but I hope you can understand that it comes from a pure place, a desire to be true to God and follow his wishes and not from some need to or desire to treat women like second class citizens. On the contrary it is our reverence for women specifically for our wives (or husbands, we have women on this course with the same belief) and that this is a way we show respect and reverence for our marriages. We believe that God has set specific boundaries for us that we should not cross. These boundaries are there to protect us, granted if one or two of these guidelines are ignored no big deal, the sky wont fall and the world wont end. But for me it sets a pattern that I dont wish to follow.

One thing I wish to make clear is that this rule isn't implemented because people don't trust themselves, or they feel weak in their convictions, or they feel that if women sleep in a tent within close proximity they will lose control. None of this is the case, and to say so offends the people who feel it important to follow this practice. Many of the groups that observe this practice of separate sleeping areas do so because of their religious practice or their faith in God and willingness to follow what they believe to be the principles of God and not the values of contemporary society. I dont understand how thinking that means that I want women to be second-class citizens.

I respect those how have different opinions, I dont look down on them or think they have less faith in God, and I didnt imply that, people simply observe their faith differently. I can see how some would make the argument that this is oppressive to some. Perhaps that has to do with the way the issue is handled. I guess there are conflicting values and if either side gets their way the other can claim to be discriminated against. What is the right answer? I think that what ever the decision is it will be questioned and criticized, and someone can argue foul. I think we should take advantage of this forum to understand why this practice occurs and understand the differing points of view as opposed accusing others of being weak minded, bigots or chauvinist.

We all uphold the scout oath, which states that we promise to do our duty to God. Some groups believe that this is part of their duty. It might appear to be trivial, old fashioned or discriminatory, that is because you dont understand why we believe this way you I feel that you prefer to make personal attacks rather than try to understand another point of view.. I believe that this is my duty to God, as I see it and I should be true to that. I dont pretend to think that I am going to convince you that I am right I just hope that you can see the motive is faith not discrimination.

I know this is going to be picked apart and criticized, and I believe it is futile to try and persuade you that there is another side to this question but I am a glutton for abuse and punishment.

(This message has been edited by johnsned)

Hello 4 the Boys,

My District went through the same thing; I just started on the District committee, in the meetings the topic of Roundtable attendance came up. I thought this might be a good angle to approach my concerns about Roundtable.

If the Roundtable is a waste of time usually attendance is low, consisting of a few core unit leaders who feel obligated to attend, some of what I call the good old boys, those who have been in scouting for a long time and come to Roundtable for more social reasons then to learn how to implement the scouting program.

People vote with their feet - If you dont offer much to the attendees they wont come back. You need to have consistent high quality meetings.

Target - So I asked who do we most want to come. I think that new leaders and struggling units should be the priority. So we need to focus content on them.

Here are my ideas that were implemented and seem to be meeting with much success.

Preopening Activities These really help to get the meetings started on time, and it is a great opportunity for commissioners and district leaders to get to know newcomers and scouters from struggling troops. I get the commissioners to help lead the preopening activities and help attendees.

Opening We should have meaningful but short opening ceremonies. It is a great way to teach ideas for openings without the lesson Great source of ideas for new scouters. I limit announcements to 1 minute each, and they must have a flyer. I have seen roundtables often spend 45 minutes on announcements that might pertain to 10% of those attending. Quick announcement and they explain how you can get more information later.

Speakers or Group instruction Often this is the entire meeting, I think is should be one part, important but only part, and should specifically explain how to incorporate the theme in your meetings. Ideas, demonstrations and sample activities are great, I dont prefer a Scouter to stand up and give an hour slide show of his last hike, or give a speech. I think roundtable should be a sample unit meeting.

Roundtable I think it is valuable to sit down in a group setting and have a lead discussion on the theme and how to implement it. We divide the groups into groups, like Fundamentals, where we talk about the basics of implementing a program. Advanced, for scouters with a lot of experience so they can discuss things according to their experience level.

In conclusion, if you always do what youve always done youll always get what youve always got.

These are my thought and how we had success revitalizing our Roundtable meetings; we have dramatically increased attendance so I guess we are doing something right.

Please excuse the lengthy post.(This message has been edited by johnsned)

The is no longer any minum time required to finish your ticket

The Powder Horn course is designed to introduce and expose Venturing and Boy Scouting adult unit leaders to the activities and resources necessary to operate a successful outdoor/high adventure unit-level program. It is based on the eight core and eighteen electives found in the Venturing Ranger program. It is intended to help adult leaders get out of the box in finding and using resources and in the way they lead their unit-level high adventure programs. No high adventure skills are taught in this course. It is designed to have some disciplines introduced with a hands-on segment. Example: For scuba if a pool is available, it is suggested to do a Discover Scuba (PADI) session where participants get into a shallow pool and wear scuba gear. It is not scuba certification. Participants will not learn how to rock climb or shoot a skeet course, but will learn where to go to find those who can teach these skills to Boy Scouts and Venturers.

This is from http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=va

As for Woodbadge, their used to be a Cub Scout Woodbadge, Boy Scout Wood Badge, Varsity Woodbadge and ELI - Explorer Leadership Institute. Now 21st Century Woodbadge is for all BSA leaders, National asks that ALL leaders take Woodbadge within their first two years as an adult leader.

This is probably too much information, but I hope it helps to answer your question.

(This message has been edited by johnsned)

THE FOLLOWING WAS SENT TO ME VIA MY COUNCIL

From the National Council:

Criminal background checks to be part of new BSA leader registration process

Since Scouting's inception, we have made every effort to have the highest quality of volunteers as role models and mentors for youth. Our main priority is the safety of our youth members and participants, and we continually seek new ways to improve our youth protection procedures.

New information technologies have greatly improved the ability of nonprofit organizations to accurately and reliably conduct criminal history record checks on applicants based upon their Social Security number. This offers a practical way to limit the possibility of individuals with a history of criminal acts against children being granted positions in the Boy Scouts of America.

When used in conjunction with other youth protection strategies, criminal history record checks are valuable tools that discourage ineligible volunteers from seeking positions in the BSA and help to identify and screen out those who do apply.

Implementing a new system

BSA National President Roy S. Roberts has announced that, after in-depth study and testing, the National Council has contracted with ChoicePoint Volunteer Select* to conduct criminal background checks for adult volunteer leaders nationwide.

Effective April 1, 2003, local councils throughout the nation will implement this new system, or a similar system, for conducting criminal background checks on volunteers.

This process will supplement the current application process, including the reference checks and the ineligible volunteer screening process. The Internet-based process will be conducted for all new adult volunteers in the traditional programs. If a registration form is completed, a background check must be done.

A new adult volunteer application will be available in the fall of 2003. The application will now (1) clearly advise applicants that a criminal background screening will be conducted; (2) require written consent to conduct the background check; (3) certify permission to use resulting reports; and (4) require a Social Security number.

The new application includes the following statement:

"By submitting this application you are authorizing a criminal background check of yourself. This check will be made from public record sources. You will have an opportunity to review and challenge any adverse information disclosed by the check."

What does this mean to you?

The primary impact will be one of feeling more secure in knowing that anyone with a history of criminal conduct with a child will be far less likely to become a volunteer in your pack, troop, team, or crew, thereby making your children safer.

It also means that a new adult application cannot be processed without a Social Security number and consent to conduct the background check (the application can only be signed by the applicant). Current leaders should make sure the required information is included on all adult applications before submitting them to the council service center.

We believe that the critical importance of protecting our youth from abuse or violence will be recognized by alland that parents, leaders, and staff will take comfort and pride in the steps we are taking.

* ChoicePoint is a public company based in the Atlanta area. It evolved out of the background checking systems in Equifax, which has a long history in this field of information expertise and has many Fortune 500 companies as clients.

Frequently Asked Questions About Adult Screening

WHY DOES THE BSA NEED VOLUNTEER SCREENING?

For the safety and protection of our youth members and participants

To insure the quality of our leadership

For the protection of the Boy Scouts of America

CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECKS

All NEW adult volunteers in BSAs traditional programs will require a criminal background check effective April 1, 2003

The criminal background checking process will supplement the current application process, reference checks, and ineligible volunteer checking process already in place.

Who will be checked?

New applicants for ANY volunteer position with the Boy Scouts of America will be checked Effective April 1, 2003, (this will include Merit Badge Counselors).

Will a Social Security number be required?

YES. One of the Checks the system makes is to ensure the applicant has a valid Social Security Number, which insures accurate identification.

If individuals decline to provide their Social Security number, they cannot register with the Boys Scouts of America.

Does a potential volunteer have to give permission for the background check?

Yes. The BSAs adult volunteer application includes authorization for conducting a criminal background check. The BSA Adult application has been changed to provide prominent notice to the applicant on the front page of the applications; be sure this page is still attached when giving the application to a prospective volunteer.

Have there been any changes in procedures?

YES. Any adult application, including those for change of position, adult transfers, and multiple registrations must complete the application in its entirety, securing all appropriate unit signatures, etc. Only the Council Copy will show the SS # the others will be blacked out so the council MUST now receive the Council Copy - be sure your Committee Chairman and Charter Representative/Institutional Head sign Council Copy.

How will people know if they have been disqualified from serving as a volunteer?

As in the past, the council will communicate notice of disqualification to potential volunteers.

Can the person being checked see the results?

Yes. Individuals will be given the opportunity to review any information found on their record. The Select system will generate and send a letter to individuals notifying them a record has been found and communicated to the council. Individuals will have the opportunity to view a copy of that information.

Will a persons name, address, and Social Security number be sent to any outside databases?

NO.

How can volunteer applicants be assured that no on will be given access to their personal information, especially their Social Security number?

As has always been the BSA policy, membership information is never sold, or offered to outside parties for use other than that directly approved for supporting BSA national and local council operations. Only the Council Copy will show the SS # the others are blacked out.

Is this screening process the only one to be used for potential volunteers?

NO. The criminal background checking process will supplement the current application process, reference checks and ineligible volunteer checking process already in place.

What happens if an application is not signed?

Applicants must personally sign the adult application giving informed consent to conduct a background check. If the required information is missing, the application will be returned to the unit for completion.

Can my unit continue to use up the older adult applications we have in our possession?

NO! Applications must be the most current version available so that the correct notification to the applicant, etc is present. This means that after April 1, 2003 only applications with the version along the front edge must say 28-501V -ADULT REGISTRATION APPLICATION -1.140MM1002 (or newer). If an older application is submitted by a unit after April 1, 2003 it will be returned to the unit along with the appropriate version of the adult application. It must be completely filled out including obtaining the signatures of the CC and CR/IH so it is in the best interest of the units and the council to submit the correct application the first time.

How can I quickly tell if I have the new application?

There is a box in red on the front of the new adult applications that states: By submitting this application you are authorizing a criminal background check of yourself. This check will be made from public record sources. You will have an opportunity to review and challenge any adverse information disclosed by the check.

The Social Security Number now says it is required, rather than optional as on previous versions of applications.

Packsaddle, yes there was a generic release for the BSA to do a background check, but now the Adult Volunteer Application has the following written in bold red letters in on the front cover.

"By submitting this application you are authorizing a criminal background check of yourself. This check will be made from public record sources. You will have an opportunity to review and challenge any adverse information disclosed by the check."

I guess the emphases is that before the check could be performed and now it will be.

From what I am told by our Council Exec, starting April all new registered adult volunteers with have to consent to allow the BSA to get a background check.

Ed,

Thank you for the update, I'd like to help out anyway I can. Any word on his condition?

- John

Ed,

Thank you for the update, I'd like to help out anyway I can. Any word on his condition?

- John

ASM, I had a question, you said as a CEO you interviewed both ChoicePoint and VolunteerSelect, both organizations had the same right wing leanings? Both companies made you feel as they would invade the privacy of your employees or overstep the boundries of a routine background check? and do something with political leanings. If so I can understand your concern since you had personal dealings with both groups and I have not.

Rooster7, couldn't have said it better myself.

le Voyageur,

I also believe that on many fronts we are involuntarily losing many personal freedoms such as privacy. But in this case the BSA won't run a "Criminal" background check unless you give them express permission to do so, hence no rights violated.

I was told that the only response the BSA will receive from ChoicePoint is a positive query response to the criminal database (a conviction), and I think that is appropriate, they should not be getting another information such as; credit history, political affiliations, nothing of this sort.

I am not sure I understand why you believe this is all about money, could you explain?

OldGrayEagle, I agree if they use the cloths because of the functionality and durablity great, we just don't want to look like a paramilitary group.

You can get BDU cheap and they are the most durable around.

I am not sure why you think ChoicePoint is a right wing organization; they are a leading company for background checks. They are used to screen potential employees, renters, and volunteers. They are contracted to do a criminal background search, yes they can access public records and find out what political party you belong to. But I don't very much that you are going to be kicked out of the BSA because you are not a "Right Wing Christian Republican". Anybody with the information you put on your Adult Volunteer Application could get that same information.

The reason the BSA is contracting this work with ChoicePoint is; If Joe Public requested a background screening of a potential applicant (having permission to do so) it would cost between $20 and $40. Most law enforcement agencies don't have the ability to accommodate bulk-screening requests. The law enforcement agencies also have difficulty supporting the data communication interface; they can't accept requests from varying data systems.

ChoicePoint and companies like that are able to take the data from diverse systems and interface with the law enforcement databases, also since they pay an annual license fee to use the databases, they charge much less per request than a direct request to a law enforcement agency.

I really dont think we should read more into this than the BSA trying to take a proactive approach to child safety.

I am with OldGrayEagle, I would like to hear your experience, why you think the BSA is making an aggressive effort to proselytize Christianity or Rightwing politics. I am like OGE, I may have a hard time spotting the public religious or political pressure. Could you also clarify the Hitler Youth doctrine and give examples of some of this.

ChoicePoint is not a Data Mining company, data mining is a computer process that systematically scans websites collecting phone numbers, email addresses and is used by business competitors to extract all product pricing data, i.e. .Get all the prices from JCPennys . Website to compare to your prices, search all Boy Scout related sites collecting email addresses to send camping equipment advertisements.

Evmori,

Thanks for keeping us informed on the condition of our friend. I see scouters as a big family, I mentioned our friend at my roundtable, asking for their prayers.

Many Scouters here in Los Angeles would like to send a card and best wishes. Either way let him know that Scouters all across the country are praying for him and his family.(This message has been edited by johnsned)

I use the camelback too I think they are great. Very convenient, my water filter screws right onto the mouth of the balder for easy filtering. I enjoy having the hose fasten to the sternum strap on my pack for easy access, this way it is easy to drink when I want.

I think the camelbacks have the best bite values, they also have a manual switch to eliminate leaks, also as I mentioned the mouth fits my filter.

-John

I think EagleDad makes a good point, that this appears to be a good boy lead troop. I also agree that if you are going to have restrictions the exclude certain boys you need to have a seperate program for them. If this is isolated then I wouldn't think it is a big deal, but if the boys feel left out to often. like Dan said boys may lose interest.

I don't think winter camping is too hard for younger scouts, I take my 6 year old son, he has been twice and loves it.

Just my two cents!

John

I was in our Council's Commissioners Conference when they covered this. Our council has indicated that no new leaders will be accepted without a background check and they have the goal to complete the checks on current members by the end of the year.

There are different categories for background check results, Category one is a automatic rejection to be a volunteer in the BSA, this includes such convictions for Rape, Murder, Manslaughter, Sexual Abuse, Sexual Assault, other crimes of a sexual nature, Misc types of assault and domestic violence.

I am told if a person fails the background check they will be contacted directly by the council exec, and given the explanation. There is an appeal process, then the chartered organization will be notified that the applicant cannot be accepted due to the results from the background check, but the type of offence and details will be confidential between the council exec and the applicant.

I too believe this is a great step toward child protection.

Evmori, it is a local application, for a council course.

OldGrayEagle this is a local policy, supported by National.

It is a very difficulty transition to move from an Adult run and lead to a boy lead and conducted. It takes a long time for the boys to trust that what they want really matters, and that they will be taken seriously. Often times they'll test the authority we say we give them, to see if we are sincere in giving up a portion of control.

This could be a great opportunity to get closer to the boys to coach and mentor them. When they arent performing dont revert to adult lead, or threaten to take the authority away from the boys, remember they are expecting that sooner or later theyll lose it anyway, they are testing, take this opportunity to sit with them council them and develop leaders.

This stage you are at is part of the process, it is one of the stages of team building. Once they believe that they have a say in the matter they will feel invested in the program and it will start to matter to them.

Anyway... just my two cents.

Hello Packsaddle;

I am a Scoutmaster for an inner city Hispanic troop. We have several boys whose families can't afford many of the scouting activities. I have to be very creative in planning our program; most of the activities are between $5 and $10 per boy. I have worked a lot with the boys teaching them about money. How to save, earn and budget. I have work to motivate them to come up with their own money to buy equipment and pay for summer camp. I first encouraged them to wash the leaders cars, organize their own garage sales and pick up odd jobs. I also frequently go equipment hunting in yard sales and the classifieds. I have found a lot of good equipment that way. I then either give it to the boys or help them earn it.

When I started with the troop I saw this as a huge problem, now I see it as an opportunity to help the boys and grow closer to them.

In many other countries, especially in Latin America Scouting is strictly for the rich, and that is really unfortunate. I am glad to see you looking out for those that it is difficult to keep up with the costs of Scouting.

One last thing. I have given in private a gift of a sleeping bag, backpack or I have called a boy to tell them that I was going to take care of the costs for an upcoming event. I have found instead of feeling embarrassed they are very thankful and appreciative.

Good luck!

Our prayers are with your friend and his family. Please do keep us posted. We are all brothers in scouting.

As I mentioned in a previous post our council offers three Wood Badge Courses per year. The one I attended then worked on staff for observes separate sleeping facilities for men and women. We interpret facilities as campsites. Yes this is due to our religious beliefs. The vast majority of participants to the particular course require this accommodation to attend Wood Badge. This course was started to serve those groups with this specific needs and also not to camp on Sundays. This is clearly stated in the application/brochure. In fact the following statement is printed on the application were in applicant signs;

I understand that attendance at all sessions is expected and required for certification. I have completed Adult Leader Basic Training appropriate to my current Scouting position. I understand that men and women will have separate sleeping areas. I also understand the $50.00 non-refundable deposit will hold my place on the course.

I understand that we all have different opinions about this, I began to participate in this forum to increase my understanding about this issue and to gain a better appreciation for those who have a different opinion.

I agree with you that if I were the only participant that needed special arrangements, I would certainly go and excuse myself to sleep and not impose on the group. In the course I was on staff for 3/4 or more of the participants required those special arrangements. So if everyone requiring separate sleeping area left the patrol site it is likely that the patrol site would be empty, or if there was a female participant that wanted to sleep and the patrol site, she may very well find herself alone. This course was created for those people specifically for those scouters requiring this. So maybe my experience is different.

I certainly understand bmchughs point of view, and I would probably be upset if I was in her place and asked to leave. I guess I started my posts on this subject trying to defend my side when all I really wanted is to explain why this regulation exists and share my perspective.

I know I have gained more understanding and insight on this issue. I appreciate the interchange of opinions.