johnponz

BP,

I agree with your sentiment. However in this case a question was asked about wearing the sash properly. Where else are we to get the correct answer but by using the available resources that BSA provides? It is clear by these resources that wearing the sash on the belt is not proper. Question asked and answered.

If someone chooses to wear the sash on the belt, it is not the end of the world, and more than likely I would not personally confront them as I have more important things to do. However when asked the question, if it is improper to wear the sash on the belt, the answer is and until it is changed will be it is not proper.

As far as youth leadership, I agree that the National Organization of the OA should have more youth representation, and adults should have no vote in policy formation similar to the lodge. However it is not set up that way currently so since a Scout is obedient, we have to live within the framework that we have.

You know if we knew each other personally and we talked, you would probably find out our views are not that much different, the tactics we use are assuredly different though.

Personal attacks that clearly violate the Scout Law should not occur on these boards. If you notice, I work hard to avoid any personal or inconsiderate attack. The closest that I came to doing that on this subject was calling someone's use of a picture "silly." I want to clarify that I was not calling the poster "silly", but rather his use of the picture to try to bolster his argument. We can all agree that an Arrow pointed down and a sash worn as a bandolier with the MB sash is silly I would think. As an aside, I was not even going to comment on this picture, but the OP brought it up again, and wondered why no one commented on it.

I will continue to try to change things by following the current rules, and hopefully climbing the ladder until I am in a position to facilitate changes.

Your tactics of blatantly calling people out, and making personal attacks does not work so well in my opinion. As the saying goes, you attract more flys with honey then with vinegar.

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BadenP,

Your post is very sad and undeserving of a response.

On the way to work I was thinking about the comment that I must not have too much fun and that I was hard on myself because I like to drive the speed limit, and in general follow the rules. Actually looking around at other drivers this AM, I seemed to be having more fun. They all had rather tense looks on their face, and many of them were probably already working as they were on their cell phones. Many of them were driving very fast only to have me catch up at the stop light. The other drivers really did not appear to be having that much "fun" just because they were speeding and on their cell phones. These people seemed more focused on the destination than on the journey.

Me on the other hand, drove the speed limit (45 in this case), listened to music on my XM radio, and pretty much took in the scenery around me including smiling at some of the other drivers at the stop signs. Nobody really smiles back. If my cell phone rings, I do not answer it but wait until I get to the office. Nothing is so important that it can't wait 20 minutes or so, or even all day if I am on a long trip. I actually enjoy these little trips, and live in the moment. Others do not appear to be doing so.

With regard to the Scout program for me it is about having fun on the journey. I do not wear knots I did not earn because I do not care about the knot too much. If I happen to earn an award I will wear the knot proudly to be an outward sign of how much I enjoy the journey. As an example, I am a ADC for my district. I do my job and enjoy the job while I do it. It just so happens that while doing my job I earned the Arrowhead honor. I wasn't really trying to earn this award, but did so in the course of my journey. It was not too hard to submit the paperwork and receive the award. I will now wear it to help remember the fun I had on the way.

I do not see any fun whatsoever in wearing any badge or knot that I did not earn. Some may, but I guess I am wired differently. I want the badges to remind me of what I have done to earn them. This is why I am not into patch trading (even as a youth). I want to look through my patch box with my son, and be able to say, I remember that camp-out. I had a really good time with my friends.

Other people can really do what they want, and I do not care too much. If I am asked a question, I will try to steer them in what I believe to be the right direction. I guess sometimes this is seen as being a "uniform cop" or some such other derogatory term. I don't think so. I just think I am answering their question. I do tend to have a matter of fact style, and can be rather blunt sometimes, but I do not "bury my head in the sand" and I confront problems when they occur. Because of my real job, I am a pretty good mediator, and can usually find common ground in a dispute. This trait has served me well in my commissioner role.

The Scouter who said that I do not seem to have fun really gave me the opportunity to look at myself, and to say after doing so that I respectfully disagree with him.

Life is a journey and the awards and patches we wear should be mile posts on that journey. Why wear something that indicates a journey one did not take? I have never sought out awards (except Eagle-that one had to be planned for), but they seem to come because I live my life in the moment and strive to do my best to help others and do my daily good turn. What is wrong with that?

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I am going to suprise some people, but I actually like the idea of a homemade cord. Just try to keep it as close in style and color to the official item. Sometimes a homemade item like this will mean more to a Scout than the store bought one.

Maybe the troop could buy the supplies and the Scouts could make their own cords similiar to the way some troops make their own neckerchief woggles.(This message has been edited by johnponz)

double post(This message has been edited by johnponz)

Actually I have lots of fun, and enjoy Scouting a lot. I do not go around telling other people that something on their uniform is incorrect, but I wear mine properly hoping that the good example will catch on. You can have fun without breaking the rules though. Hard on myself, maybe, but I like to challenge myself, and try to provide the best service that I can.

To each their own is really my motto. However, I will get the right answer to questions if I am asked and do have a matter of fact style when it comes to answering them. My fun really is oin ther journey. I like to slow down, go camping and enjoy life when I am Scouting and participating in my other hobbies.

Not that it really matters, but I do not break the speed limit often. I decided a long time ago that the best way to avoid getting any tickets was to not break the limit. I also STOP at stop signs where others seem to roll through. I do not have a stack of traffic tickets as was stated that we ALL must have (I do not remember the last time I got a ticket but it was years ago). Again speeding and knots are apples and oranges and really should not be used in any discussion regarding one or the other.

The recognition awards are just that recognition from the District, Council, Area, Region or national that you have done outstanding work. By calling the various geographies of Scouting an "ole boys club" you are downgrading the significance of the award.

The District Award of Merit can be awarded to any Scouter in the district and is not awarded for service to the district (per se). The award is for outstanding service given to youth within or outside of Scouting. The only reference to the district is that cooperation within the district is required.

Knots should be awarded for major accomplishments. I believe getting one of the recognitions is a major accomplishment. I am ok with the training awards as well if they are earned.

It was not my idea to do away with them. I just agreed that I could live with that for the training awards but believe the recognition awards should remain if such a decision is made.

Let's keep all the knots, but earn the ones that we wear so we can wear them proudly.

Personally, I would be ashamed to wear a knot that I did not earn, and really would see no purpose in wearing it. I learned when I earned my Eagle many years ago that anything worth wearing is worth really earning, and to use an often quoted phrase...It is the journey not the destination. If you wear a knot or any award that you have not earned, you have arrived at the destination without the benefit of the journey. What good is that?

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There is really no hard feelings on my part. I am just taking part in a discussion.

As far as getting rid of adult knots, I would be for that with regard to the "training knots." However, the adult recognition awards such as District Award of Merit, Silver Beaver, Silver Antelope, etc. deserve some sort of uniform insignia (in my opinion), and of course Eagle and AOL deserve some sort of recognition on the uniform (again in my opinion).

I would 100% agree with disposing of the training awards (if it were my call-which it is not). However, let's keep the recognition type of insignia.

The answer here is simple. A question was asked and answered 7 pages ago. This is not a case of a Scouter pointing out that another Scouter is improperly wearing the uniform. Someone asked if it is proper. When such a question is asked, what is the proper reference? The insignia guide of course. This is a simple question with a simple answer. The guide clearly says do not wear the sash on the belt. If you choose to do so fine, but it is not proper. End of story. A silly picture of some politician wearing the Arrow pointing down does not change the guide, and it is silly to point out such a picture in an argument.

Question was asked and answered 7 pages ago. If you want to break the rules go ahead. Your choice.

Another logical fallacy this one is called apples and oranges. Speed limits and knots are 2 different things.

I will agree if a leader has attended 3 meetings instead of 4 and has a legitimate reason, this may call for an exception and I have no problem with that. That is way different in giving out a knot when someone attended 0 roundtables when a certain number is required. It is not about being a tin god or any of those other things. It is about building character which is important and teaching the Scouts to do things the right way.

As you say knots are not that important. Why should Scouters get upset when they do not get an unearned one?

What one person thinks of another does not really stregthen an argument. I am sure West did not like Seton very much either.

My point was that there are many who like to quote BP, but it took more people than just BP to start the Scouting movement. West was very importasnt in making the BSA what it is today. His organizational skills are really what shaped the US movement, and Scouting as an organized organization in the US probably would not exsist without his executive skills. His contributions were very important to the movement.

The bottom line with the knot issue is that adults should demonstrate good character and not wear knots that they did not earn, and should try to follow the rules and wear the uniform properly. Scouting is supposed to be fun, but played within the rules of the game. We are not all free to make our own rules.(This message has been edited by johnponz)

One of my favorite uniform quotes comes from one of US Scouting's fonders and our 1st Chief Scout Executive James West, "We are anxious to have the co-operation of every Scout and Scout Official in making effective the regulations covering the Official Uniform, Insignia and Badges. To tolerate a conscious disregard for requirements, even in simple matters, breeds disrespect for law and order. When I have found boys wearing the neckerchief under instead of over the shirt collar, it developed that invariably the Scouts, and indeed their own Scoutmaster, did not understand the correct way of wearing the neckerchief. I am anxious that every Scout and Scout Official study the diagram, wear the neckerchief in the right way, and that he invite the attention of other fellows to the right way when he finds them wearing it wrong."

He is speaking of neckerchiefs in particular but his point carries through to all aspects of uniforming.

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One of the purposes you mention are "the ideals." Included in these ideals is the Scout Law including Trustworthy and Obedient. Are you really setting a good example to the youth by wearing awards you did not earn? What are you teaching?

The message is it is ok to cut corners if it is fun. You are forgetting the purpose and only concentrating on the fun.(This message has been edited by johnponz)

The politician is obviously not in a proper uniform. How does a picture of someone so obviously out of uniform bolster your position. That is just silly.

Wow did this thread go off topic. The topic was wearing the OA sash properly and we ended up talking about shoulder loops.

I go back to my point. Why is SP asking a bunch of people on a furum what he should do? He should be asking his DC or ADC.

Where is the ADC or DC in this? SP did you ask them if they thought this was a good idea before agreeing to it? This is definitely a question where their involvement is called for.

You could have easily told the CC that you would be glad to do this, but the DC did not think it was a good idea. That would have taken any pressure you felt off of you. This is what bosses ar for in the real world and in the BSA.

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This not knowing the rules is a red herring argument. I already posted the link to the "Official Order of the Arrow Website" that clearly defines the rules.(This message has been edited by johnponz)

BadenP

You are one of the most unscoutlike people I have run across on this forum. I could care less that you used to be a DE which you like to throw around a lot on these forums, and I do not care about your name dropping either (i.e., I used to work for the CSE). Your personal attacks are not necessary or appreciated. You can disagree with someone without being disagreeable. By the way what does the OA stand for if it does not stand for humble cheerful service done with your fellow Arrowmen?

If it matters, I am a district level Scouter that is well respected within the district. I am an Eagle Scout as well as a Vigil Honor member of the OA (1983-I would not have even brought this up but for BPowells disrespectful and unneeded posting). I am going to choose to ignore any further comment by him because obviously he chooses to ignore the Scout Law (friendly, courteous and kind).

Some choose to think that marketing and PR is more important than the ideals of the order. To paraphrase E. Urner Goodman, OA is a thing of the Spirit.

Just, follow the attached link from the official OA website. It will tell you when the wearing of the sash is appropriate. As I said this has not changed since at least the '80s. I cannot speak of before that.

http://www.oabsa.org/features/chairman/answer9.htm

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Sorry, the practice of wearing the sash on the belt was not allowed in the '80s either. There are always a few rogue lodges that continue to practice "traditions" that are not allowed under the rules. I know that it was not allowed because I attended the National Leadership Seminar in 1981, and it was specifically mentioned that the sash is only allowed to be worn over the right should and is not allowed on the belt. Guess what, the same rules regarding when to wear the sash was also in effect. It was to be worn only when providing service as an arrowman or at OA events.

Now for opinion, OA membership is not something that one should "brag" or "show off." Those around you should know you are a member not because of some outward sign, but because of the cheerful service that you give. This is a good lesson for the Scouts who are in the OA. The sash does not matter, it is your attitude while providing service.

If the OA dies, but does so while the members are trying to live up to its ideals so be it. Better to have a dead OA than one that is a shell with no adherence to it ideals.

Members of the OA have a tradition of giving quiet cheerful service in the background, and that is the way it should continue. What we are trying to teach is that there is value and good feelings that come with providing the service. This requires no outward sign. All who see you should recognize your membership based on your actions.

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Shortridge-Sorry sometimes the sense of sarcasm is lost in the "virtual world."

Shortridge,

This is the exact reason that adults should not form committees. That kid "who'll just screw it up and then quit or graduate" is in charge at the OA function, and not the adults. It is up to the "kid" to delegate the tasks and get it done and the adults should serve as advisers only.

That is the program. We (as adults) are here to develop the kid's leadership skills so in the future he does not "screw it up." I enjoyed being in charge when I was in the OA as a youth (many years ago), but being in charge is not my role as an adult.

This committee is specifically disallowed as all Committee Chairmen must be youth members of the OA.

Eagle92 is closer to the policy as written by the BSA. However, "Assistants" shopuld be included in the general term "Unit Leader" per the following:

The Commissioner Administration of Unit Service Publication http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Commissioners/Manuals/34128.aspx

Here on page 3 it states, "In Cub Scouting, the unit leader is the Cubmaster,

who shares the responsibility with den leaders; in

Boy Scouting, it is the Scoutmaster and assistants.

In Venturing, it is the Advisor and associates." So you can see in the Commissioner context the Unit Leader position really refers to the entire Unit Leadership team not the specific unit leader. This is further corroborated by the fact that the publications specifically state that a Commissioner can be a Committee Member. This implies that they cannot be in another direct leadership position such as ASM.

I am really only pointing this out so that everyone understasnds what the actual policy is. I have given up on trying to convince people that they need to be following it

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