jkhny

Cleaning things up one step at a time -

THIS is why some of us STAY involved.

Challenged on numbers last Spring, the Exec Board appointed a volunteer to audit numbers last Spring. He "could not" or "would not" do so. All through 2005 there were endless recruitment pushes.

BSA Region came in and did a LIMITED examination and said they could find no evidence that procedures and policies on membership reporting were not being followed. Nice double negative. NO specific numbers were mentioned.

Guidestar now has 12/31/05 numbers up

"Serves 7700 youth"

NOTHING NEAR the "over 10,000" claimed for 12/31/2004

EITHER THE COUNCIL WAS OVERSTATING BY 30% IN 2004 OR ENROLLMENTS DROPPED BY 23% IN ONE YEAR

NEITHER IS GOOD

AND contributions dropped by 35% in two years despite a doubling of fundraising expenditures.

ALL signs of SERIOUS problems.....

OH, and the dismissed volunteer filed suit in court this week too.

And the volunteers in Chicago are continuing to make progress ousting their leadership. New COURT ORDERED elections are coming up.

At least two $400,000 awards have been made over all this - and more cases remain in the courts. While National media have ignored this, it has spurred a change in Idaho State laws on child abuse statutes of limitations and laws on reporting child abuse. When failures are so very clear and the wrong so very obvious, why does BSA simply refuse to hold its professionals responsible for their failures? It is hard to claim any "moral high ground" when such things happen. BSA repeatedly states that it has "rules and procedures" about all this. So, why aren't there consequences for professionals that FAIL to follow them, especially when children ARE hurt?

Speaks for itself......

From the Idaho State Journal

After variously claiming 21,000 or 15,000 or 10,000 participants in a program for "disadvantaged youth" the audit commissioned by BSA Atlanta found just over 5000 - with only 3400 or so "active."

So... all those previous claims - made in soliciting funds, were NOT "lies"? It wasn't his job to make sure claims were accurate? It is according to BSA.

And even after all this, when challenged to muster 1000 boys by a local Civil Rights leader, BSA was unwilling to do so. Many still have questions about REAL enrollments.

If there WERE 1000 boys in this program, hold an event. If there are 5000 registered, it shouldn't be too hard to get 1000 to show up.

But as another stated, the powers that be in Atlanta are far happier to have all of this die down. It was an embarassment. So.... "investigate", claim the problem's fixed and "move on."

And maybe, possibly, in Atlanta it IS fixed. If so, great. But don't go claiming that the process was open and transparent and that many people aren't left with legitimate questions.

It seems like you're employing the ususal semantic techniques at evasion..... The SE didn't lie. Well, please exaplain the gross discrepancies in numbers.

"It wasn't the SE, he wasn't lying...." "the DE that said HE was pressured to lie about numbers was actually the one lying"..... "the numbers ARE right it just depends on who you define as disadvantaged..." And about that new Council HQ? No bids? Maybe the guy cut the Council a deal but without competitive bids who'll ever know how much he saved (or cost) the Council?

I am never disappointed by the failure of BSA to be open and forthright on ANYTHING and never disappointed at the lengths BSA will go to hide and obfuscate.

If there's nothing to hide, why NOT let independent outsiders audit things - numbers AND money.

You have yet to show that ANYTHING I have stated is in error.

I challenge you - explain how this guy is still in BSA after lying twice about enrollments - overstating membership by 40% at Circle Ten in Dallas and by 40% in Greater Alabama. In BOTH cases the numbers were reduced by 40%. THis guy has refused to let anyone audit his past claims, and says "missing units" were caused by the ACLU. The volunteer board member that raised these concerns internally was threatened and told to shut up. After his charges were proven, he was thrown out. THIS is one of the more egregious examples of all that is wrong with BSA. One of the "clique" who bragged that "they'd never find anything wrong" when investigating him..... he remains in his job making well over $200,000 a year in an area wher median income is $40,000. He has bragged that he will be taking over as CSE after Williams.

Is THIS a shining example of what Scouting is all about?

You cannot say - straightforward and without reservation or qualification - that BSA is doing all it can to live up to its stated values and expects its paid professionals to do so.

There is too much evidence to the contrary.

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

The SM behind boyscoutsfor truth was pretty clear in stating that he still believed that Council had overstated claims for "disadvantaged youth" He - like many others - came to a compromise "working within the system". If you want to stay in Scouting, you are told to shut up. In this case, I believe that is exactly what happened. He is committed to the boys he leads and wants to remain involved.

Of note, Atlanta variously claimed 21,000 or was it 15,000 or was it the finally found (by the auditor chosen by BSA itself) 5,000 (with only 3,400 "active") - Atlanta NEVER mustered the 1000 boys that civil rights leaders challenged them to produce in public.

And like so many other enrollment frauds, the DE's got the blame - though at least the SE there was honorable enough to quit. Now about the multimillion dollar Council offices built without a bid by a Board member. May be fine but it looks bad. Again, transparency shouldn't be feared if there's nothing to hide.

Sorry.... there are more than enough people that believe things - once again - got swept under the carpet in Atlanta like Dallas, Alabama and more.....

BSA has NEVER allowed independent audits of membership numbers ANYWHERE. What's to hide?

And if you want a BETTER source for BSA scandals you can go to the BSA anti-discrimination sites. Their documentation is pretty good - with links to the media. But - they're enemies of Boy Scouts. Horrors. But I have yet to catch a factual error in bsadiscrimination, Looks like the links in the Daily Kos piece are valid as well.... so it's not like any of these places are making stuff up. Spend some time with Google. Astounding what you can find..... way too many abuse cases compared to other groups too... but that was covered in the past.

It seems like the standard response is at work here.

1)ANY criticism of BSA is painted as an attack. It can't be true, it's lies.

2)The critic is wrong, they hate BSA. They're out to get BSA. A critic can't possibly be trying to act nobly and hold BSA to its own values.

Critics are supposed to

1) Shut up

or

2) LEAVE

It's BSA's way or the highway. Never mind if the criticisms are valid.

so if something is WRONG, a good Scout is supposed to ignore it.

No point in getting into the same old arguments but blind obedience is complicity in wrongdoing. If you fail to demand transparency and the BEST behavior from those in charge, you are complicit in any wrongdoing that occurs.

BSA has managed to push out some very good leaders, some very moral and ethical people..... and it tolerates some pretty intolerant and immoral ones. I'll agree that 90% of those involved are great - so why should we be tainted by the remaining 10%? And why should that 10% be allowed to take over BSA and drive good people out?

No point in relisting all that's been listed in the past.

But even the Wall Street Journal is covering the property sales uproars on the front page.

Atlanta was more than covered in the media last spring but - as BSA counts on - they eventually lose interest. boyscoutsfortruth was the web page for the group involved.

Here, well, I HAVEN'T walked away - unlike the 3 or 400 volunteers that HAVE simply given up after banging their head against the wall for 3 years. And THAT is EXACTLY what BSA wants - people to walk away. No problems here.... no dissent.... no complaints.... move along..... and after they're all gone, BSA will dissolve a Council, merge it into another and decide where the assets go..... and NOBODY with any long term memory is left around to complain, say this is wrong or point out that this breaks every promise ever made to volunteers there. Like the pone that the LAST Camp sale would be the end of it.

Others earlier up in the thread have mentioned enough of the cases I referred to.... THEY sure managed to find them.... so.... maybe it's just easier to see things you don't want to see....

But as noted, BSA National ALLOWS all this to happen. They REFUSE to allow outside audits when challenged on enrollment numbers and then come out with their own whitewash. Even when paid professionals are caught dead to rights in lying - like Greater Alabama - there are no consequences.

And for those that are so happy....request our SE by name.... we'd be glad to get rid of him, just like Flint River was. "BigEd" had a whole series of posts on him from 1996 through 2002. You can look them up in the archives.

No more from me on this. Made my point. Even when clear and complete documentation is provided, when a few hundred volunteers protest, it doesn't matter. Nobody here's masochistic to fund a court case like Chicago - and given how well that's working out, why bother? Even when you win, BSA still doesn't give in.

Regarding "good" and "bad" professionals -

BSA National sure doesn't seem to care if someone makes a mess - and it seems like they've "run out of desks in the Supply Division" to park the real screw-ups. A Council sure can't get a realistic evaluation of a professional when they're looking at resumes - there are too many loose in Councils.

And it seems to be IMPOSSIBLE to EVER get rid of a paid professional - unless they're caught dead to rights by the FBI with kiddie porn.

The group in Atlanta - and others - have called for a VOLUNTEER run "registry" where people can post their eveluations of paid staffers - something like the student run evaluations of professors in college or even the online "Rate my teacher". You will get a range of opinions but the truth is generally pretty clear. But that prospect scares the hell out of some BSA professionals. You think that they'd be proud of their accomplishments and have nothing to hide, right? Well, it seems like far too many have pretty bad track records and WE as volunteers pay the price. BSA and the KIDS we serve pay the price.

In our Council's case, one volunteer found a LONG and DETAILED thread relating to our Scout Executive's performance in his former Council here in SCOUTER archives. They're printed out and cached, so scrubbing won't help. This guy has been complained about vehemently BEFORE - by accomplished and long serving Scouters - volunteer AND paid. In fact the SE himself was reamed pretty well for attacking one of his critics by name on this forum. The subject of his wrath was defended as a great guy - and further doubt cast on this SE.

ALL that was posted here was confirmed in direct communications with personnel in his former Council. Given his history, ANY other employer would have fired him years ago. Not BSA. And interestingly, people in his former Council seem to be under the impression that he was an Eagle Scout.....yet he made a point of saying he was NOT here.... makes you wonder if he got caught on THAT and warned......

Again.... why won't BSA National hold its own paid professionals to the standards they CLAIM to represent?

It's THAT simple.

A paid professional that lies should be fired.

A paid professional that breaks the law should be fired.

Instead you have GOOD people thrown out of BSA by paid professionals looking to cover up their own screw-ups.....

lies about enrollments and fundraising (LOTS of examples)

professionals that have bought alcohol for underage boys (GA)

coverups of child/sex abuse (Idaho and CA)

NONE of this is excusable. ANYONE that tries to get BSA to follow their own rules and standards is slandered and threatened, thrown out if they push it. How appalling is that? This should not occur ANYWHERE in BSA.... but too many, even here are more than willing to say "its only a few instances.... only a few Councils...." they paint me and any other Scouter raising these issues as malcontents and dissidents and tell us to leave. Instead tehy should live up to the Scout Law and DEMAND all others do the same.

NO EXCUSES It shouldn't happen ANYWHERE in BSA

There is too much convoluted justification being used to excuse what is UNEXCUSABLE.

When YOU are an Eagle Scout complaining about a DE buying beer for kids and YOU are thrown out.... when YOU as a long serving BOARD member complain that the units listed have NO trained volunteers, when you find out those units do not exist and membership is overstated by 40% and YOU are thrown out..... when a 15 year old girl in Venturing and her Cubmaster mother are thrown out after complaining that a 20 year old staffer is sexually propositioning her (a FELONY in CA).... when YOU as a 215 year old boy are threatened after going to your SE to complain about being sexually abused by a camp staffer..... ALL of this is documented and confirmed.

this is pretty appalling stuff - and BSA does its utmost to sweep it under the carpet and silence anyone that utters a peep.

If BSA has been true to the Scout Law, why are they hiding so much? why do they refuse to discuss so much? why do they refuse ANY independent investigations of wrongdoing?

And btw.....

BSA National is sitting on $500,000,000 in LIQUID assets - not to mention all the property NATIONAL owns and the funds and property LOCAL Councils own......

What is all that money getting used for? It sure isn't being used to "support Scouting" in any TANGIBLE and MEANINGFUL way - like keeping up properties. Build it and they will come...... instead we sell everything off and wonder why nobody's interested.....

Where does the money go? BSA National has a lot of HIGHLY paid people in National and Regional doing WHAT again? Funny how BSA is NOT very transparent in its financial reporting providing details. And despite all those people, numbers just keep going down.... How long do you keep a FAILING leadership in place?

One might be forgiven if you think that BSA is now just one more corporate entity that exists MAINLY to pay its executives nice fat salaries and benefits....... Irving has some VERY well paid BSA execs.

and most LOCAL SE's are VERY well paid compared to other non-profit positions.... If BSA really cared about their "program" they might pay DE's - the "footsoldiers" - more.

We've seen the same pattern over and over again in corporations.... they fake results to hide ongoing failures.... smoke and mirrors. TRY to get detailed information on finances and "numbers"...... Accounting methods are employed that make things look better than they are.

Whistleblowers get punished - thrown out - even when their claims are proven true. Executives that are caught lying - not just once - are "protected" by higher ups. They brag that internal audits won't find a thing - and make sure outside audits never occur.

BSA claims to stand for "values" and "character". Should a REAL Scout stand by while others hijack Scouting for their own benefit? Should a REAL Scout remain silent in face of clear wrongdoing? NOt according to the Scout Law.

It seems like many TRY to do the right thing and - facing a real battle - either quit completely or "give up" and restrict their involvement to a local unit "for the boys" - as their Council gets worse and worse. Some believe "obedience" should take precedence over all else - even when they know things are not right. But hypocrisy shows.....

BSA has had scandal after scandal over enrollment fraud - with only a fraction of cases becoming pubilc. BSA National could end this if it wanted. Why isn't there a ZERO tolerance policy and an OPEN BOOKS policy allowing INDEPENDENT audits? Instead we get cover up after cover up......

Council property sales are too often murky and questionable.... going for less than expected to connected buyers.....

BSA should have an IMPECCABLE record - ABSOLUTE TRANSPARENCY in EVERYTHING. Instead it hidse behind closed doors and stonewalla ANY inquiries. WHAT IS BSA HIDING? WHY is BSA SO AFRAID when its volunteers ask reasonable questions like"

How many boys are actively enrolled and participating in Scouting?

Where does your Council's money get spent? Where does National's?

Just ask how much your SE is paid and see the reaction. In too many Councils, they will REFUSE to answer the question, but HE WORKS FOR YOU.

Look at BSA's annual report and compare it to Girl Scouts. BSA is astounding in the LACK of information provided.

BSA is being POORLY run by VERY WELL PAID executives. Yet NOBODY seems to be accountable for failures or even outright fraud. WHY?

We've seen professional staff turnover and dissatisfaction, volunteer alienation, failure to meet FOS goals and membership goals, drops in adult membership and a startling drop in the number of volunteers fillig District and Council positions. ALL this occurred in Flint River. HOW IS THIS GUY STILL WORKING FOR BSA? He was despised there and is despised here..... literally.... long serving leaders refuse to shake his hand. HUNDREDS of volunteers have shown up at Board Meetings to express their discontent. We TRIED organizing COR's and found out why THAT doesn't work 90% of the time....

Of note, membership fees in his previous Council(a direct reflection of membership numbers) were static under his leadership until the whole DE staff seemed to change. The number then went up. DEs here have reported intense pressure to up numbers and increase fundraising (one was pressured to fraudulently claim Quality Status but refused) BUT as soon as he left his previous Council, the numbers went BACK DOWN to what they'd been before he arrived. This occurs when a new SE is unwilling to sign off on inflated membership claims.

As far as MY Council.... Westchester-Putnam - it's been mentioned before. And ALL the issues I raise about our SE - Some Guy - were raised at his PREVIOUS Council, Flint River in GA. The Neighboring Council there had ITS SE "promoted" to Regional after the IRS found fraudulent bookkeeping.... Look up NEGA's 990's - none filed since when? Why is that?

Let's be blunt. LOUSY leadership is pretty self evident - especially when National gets slews of complaints about a professional. But the "good old boys" are more concerned with protecting a fellow executive...... this is all like SO many other corporate scandals.....

And think about how hard it is to get anyone to take action in a corporate scandal...... BSA is a volunteer organization.... most volunteers DO simply give up - and THAT is why this mess keeps growing.... In only a few Councils have EFFECTIVE efforts been made to fight back....

BSA National does NOTHING because they're covering the professional's tails. "It's not our problem" Yes it is. When a Council is refusing to follow bylaws, when a majority of the volunteers register complaints, there IS a problem. But BSA doesn't even look into complaints. They don't want to know and remain uninvolved. Even when a professional has broken the law and ignored BSA's own child protection regulations, there are no consequences. Look at Idaho.

If BSA National wanted all this to end, it would end. THE only way it WILL end is for Scouts to take back control of Scouting and DEMAND accountability. THAT is what I am doing - demanding accountability. If there's nothing wrong, what is there to fear?

Since when is it wrong to demand that BSA and its own paid professionals follow its own Scout Law? (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

We've lost a few hundred adults who have groen tired of trying to fight the good fight over the past 3 years. BSA has deliberately structured its bylaws to give volunteers that do the work of Scouting AS LITTLE say as possible in how BSA is run. TRY to oust a Council's hand-picked (by the PAID SE who they are supposed to oversee) Executive Board. CAC voted DOWN the same old handpicked slate chosen by a handpicked nominating committee TWICE and had to go to court to get them to hold another election with NEW candidates. TRY to organize COR's....... you can barely get enough volunteers to do the basics in some areas and when confronted with autocratic and incompetent leadership, volunteers DO quit.

BSA - excluding the contrived "Learning for Life" and inactive scouts "on the roster" but not seen since last spring (or since the first few meetings) probably has closer to 2.5 million kids - NOT the 4.2 or 4.8 or whatever the current number claimed is......

The more BSA focuses on faking numbers and covering up problems, the worse the problems get. Williams is one of the HIGEST paid non-profit CEO's in the country - and he's presided over an organization that has continually LOST membership under his "leadership" - while scandals continue to erupt...... Why the fear of outside oversight and auditing? Is it even WORSE than claimed?

Our Council Leadership was challenged on enrollment claims last spring. NOBODY believes the claims made for overall enrollment - even one of the DE's quietly stated he would not be part of fraud. Seems like we have a lot of NEW staff - and vacancies in the paid ranks now.

Official numbers do NOT match claims and an analysis of numbers shows a HUGE level of "churn" - sign-ups that do not remain active. We are LOSING long term members while signing up boys that do NOT remain for more than a few meetings. Yet this suits our SE fine. The total count is all that matters - even if active participation has dropped precipitously. Our "inner city" units are a joke - with a handful of kids - being run by a paid staffer, hardly the raging success claimed previously.

It was clear that at least one of the Districts claiming Quality status was using bogus numbers. There were VISIBLE alterations on the worksheet copy passed out at the District Meeting and the numbers on the sheet did NOT come close to any of those on official Council printouts. Official Council printouts listed dead units and had numbers for some units that were clearly unsupported by reality. Needless to say, nobody has seen Quality worksheets or official printouts since then.... After realizing that people READ reports, they stopped issuing them.

Of note, our Scout Executive has alienated the volunteer base here since his arrival, been adament about pushing throught the sale of valuable property over the objections of volunteers (who fought it in court). Prices have tanked in the real estate market nad it seems they are selling this for HALF the projected price - LESS than earlier REJECTED offers.

He has NOT met his goals in membership or fundraising. He has managed to remove critics from most District and Council positions and changed the composition of the Executive Board, removing the District Chairs who used to have Board seats. The current Board is handpicked by the SE but he is running things through an even smaller "Executive Committee". All of this fits a pattern of fraud seen in other Councils where increasing secrecy is used to hide failures to perform.

Despite claiming success in meeting FOS goals for last year and closing out the campaign early, he has come up far short in collecting money and had to ask to withdraw funds from trust funds TWICE - over $100,000. Of note the Council 990 filing has been delayed far longer than usual - the 2004 filing is STILL not available on Guidestar - another bad sign.

A long serving volunteer was appointed to examine the membership numbers. He "could not" - or WOULD not certify the current claims. Didn't BSA implement a policy of REQUIRING a key volunteer to certify membership numbers?

Northeast Region was called in and examined ONLY the overall membership claim number - certifying that it was fine. Region REFUSED to examine other specific allegations of fraud saying they all came under the larger issue of total enrollment.

Adult participation is dropping off dramatically as long serving volunteers are simply walking away. Roundtables are empty, as are District Meetings and Roundtables. THe general concensus seems to be "Why bother? - we have no say in anything anyway."

Positions remain unfilled or filled in name only. Our Assistant District Commissioner lives in Maine most of the year (he retired years ago)- the Council is in NY.

Why does BSA continue to hide the incompetence of paid professionals and excuse the worst behavior?

Is BSA TRYING to kill off Scouting?

Many here believe there is a deliberate attempt to drive out all long serving volunteers so they can kill this Council off and take its assets - National has had its eye on our camp in the Adirondacks. This is NOT the only case where BSA is turning a blind eye to the horrid behavior of a SE - and is even complicit in the destruction of a Council.

National is quoted as having "no policy" on property sales in the recent (and NOT complimentary article on property sales). National CLAIMS to have a "no fraud" policy on membership but REFUSES outside audits and clearly in this case IGNORED clear evidence of fraud. The whole "Trustworthy" issue is wearing thin.

But meanwhile our SE made $60,000 more than his Girl Scout Counterpart, while overseeng maybe HALF the number of kids in Scouting.

What does it take to get BSA to do the RIGHT thing?

Of note CAC is STILL fighting to get their Council leadership to hold new elections after being voted down TWICE. And this after a COURT ORDER to hold new elections with new candidates. EVEN when BSA loses in Court, they won't simply do what's right.

And we TRIED organizing COR's here to vote out the Board - all the Chartering Organizations got phone calls telling them ther was "no need" to participate in any votes, and they fought efforts to register COR's to put in opponents who WOULD vote for change. It also seems a dismisse volunteer will be filing in court soon as well. One more case where a SE throws out a critic instead of answering valid questions. Some of the volunteers in CAC that brought suit there had THEIR registrations revoked, as did the whistleblower in Alabama (he's still in court). When you can't defend against valid claims, you throw the accusers out to silence them? How un-American.

We lost over 200 adult volunteers from 03-04 and probably the same from 04-05. These are the ACTIVE people - not the paper leaders. Many remain involved ONLY at the Troop level, REFUSING any involvement in District or Council. Many units are REFUSING FOS support - amd Districts show $0 under leadership contributions.

So..... when is this fraud of "representative democracy" going to finally follow its own rules? National numbers continue to decline, scandals smolder - while BSA hopes Americans have short attention spans..... CDC reamed BSA on Jamboree....

BSA is getting embarassing.....it hides behind rhetoric about "values" while overpaid staffers show anything BUT "values"

... but when you've got that Congressional charter..... that's a pretty valuable monopoly.

When the volunteers in a Council have to take that COuncil to court because the Council leadership REFUSES to follow corporate bylaws, something is very wrong.

CORS and other voting reps deliberately and consciously did NOT "approve" the two slates of candidates the CAC put up for a vote. THe only choice they are given was to vote "for" or "Against" the WHOLE slate of handpicked candidates. The duly chosen reps and COR's voted AGAINST - twice. The Executive Board refused to allow other candidates - candidates that the reps and COR's WANTED to vote for - to be chosen by their hand-picked "nominating committee."

ONLY by going to court were the members of CAC able to get BSA CAC to do what they SHOULD have done all along. THis case points out the absurd claims made that BSA Councils "represent" their volunteers and are responsive to them. When volunteers have to go to court to make this point, it is a sad day for Scouting. The hypocrisy of BSA claims to "represent" their volunteers couldn't be clearer.

BSA will be facing a number of court actions in the upcoming year which will further make this point.

Maybe not.... CAC volunteers took Council Leadership to court and won. Court ruled that CAC leadership had NOT followed their own Corporate bylaws and agreed with the volunteers bringing suit. Looks like voluneteers are finally going to be able to vote for a leadership slate THEY want - after REFUSING to approve the current leadership slate in TWO votes. Look for wholesale changes in CAC.

But why should it take court action for volunteers to be heard by their own Council leadership? Why should volunteers have to take BSA to court so they can elect representatives and a Board THEY want? This case showed howw much of a sham the "democratic" representation of volunteers really is.

Look for real fallout from this. CAC isn't the only Council having these problems. Up until now, BSA has said "tough luck" when volunteers disagreed with the SE and his hand-picked board. Well, court found this unacceptable.

Alabama is in court still and word is a few others will be headed there.

BSA National has a HIGHLY paid cadre of "professionals" - Williams compensation package was over $900,000 in 2003 - cause for negative comment in the non-profit world. He is one of the HIGHEST paid non-profit CEO's in the country. This was expounded on previously. National has a slew of VERY well paid "professionals."

SE's tend to be FAR better paid than their GSA counterparts. Here the SE makes $60,000 more than the GSA head (same exact geographical area and GSA has twice the number of kids enrolled).

There's a whole cadre of "professionals" making obscenee and UNDESERVED salaries. Look at Holmes in Alabama - at over $240,000 a year - caught faking enrollments for the second time in 5 years.

THe standing joke here is that the ONLY thing "professionals" do in this Council is raise money to pay their own salaries.

Of note, Baden Powell had real doubts about having ANY paid professionals in Scouting. Look at your Council's 990 and see where most of the money goes.

Reality check. Look at this for what it is. An attempt by out of touch National leaders to get more kids into Scouting.

BUT it's NOT going to work and is going to HURT.

Like it or not, Scouting is NOT "cool". It's down there with Marching Band and Chess Club on the "coolenss scale." And - like it or not - for kids in Middle School (the age group for 1st class, 7th or 8th grade seems typical), "fitting in" and being "cool" is a MAJOR focus in their lives.

We have a successful Troop - over 40 kids many having NO Cub Scout experience. We run a great High Adventure program. BUT Scouting is NOT cool. We cannot get boys to show up in uniform for the Memorial Day parade - the youngest may show up and the oldest Eagles, but not those in the middle.

You are NOT going to get some Middle School boys to voluntarliy admit to being in Boy Scouts much less talk to their friends about it. This requirement is going to be ignored or fudged.

The fact that this was even proposed shows the detachment shown by those in Texas and the "old-timers" in general. It's NOT 1950 anymore. It's NOY some Disney film with kids and adults clamoring to join BSA. It's NOT because people haven't been asked to join - as BSA so regularly touts. The answer is another topic.

Frankly, I and other leaders at Roundtable found this unconscionable - making it a "requirement" in any way shape or form. You have a Recruiter" strip for those that do so voluntarily. And the real gung-ho "Boy Scout" scouts are a bit of an embarrassment to the others - even higher on the "geek" scale.... and reality is, at least around here, those younger kids SO into Boy Scouts early on seem to outgrow that and don't last

BSA should be MORE worried about getting GOOD ADULT leaders into Scouting. GOOD Leaders running a GOOD program result in kids that WANT to join. And NOBODY here feels like BSA gives a damn about the volunteer leaders, no matter how long their tenure or how accomplished they are. Problem is, some of the really GOOD ones we already have are leaving and others who would have been interested in the past are really put off by all BSA is now associated with. The politicization of BSA and it's increasing conservative/religious slant is hurting among adults AND kids. I won't get into all the (deservedly) bad press. I had two parents in Cub Scouts confront me DIRECTLY during our first meeting and one GOOD Den Leader is having real reservations - on principle.

You should not be forcing kids to do this. It's adding to the "Amway" mentality where BSA is all about adding new members and selling popcorn. And THAT is all you'd think Scouting is about going by OUR Council.

BSA has sent out a notice to SE's that the rewuirement for First CLass will be changing with the addition of a requirement.

Boys must talk to another former Scout or some other boy about the benefits of Scouting, and bring them to a meeting, outing or some other activity.

National seems to be a bit desperate in trying to drag boys in BUT this is NOT going to work and will actually HURT.

More than a few boys are embarrassed enough at being Scouts. Scouting is definitely NOT ANYWHERE above the mean on any "coolenss" scale. I expect it's down near the bottom with "Chess Club" and "Marching Band". Probably below both.

Like it or not, that's the way the boys see it. We've got a successful Troop with 40+ boys and a full high adventure schedule. We have boys with NO Scouting experience coming in voluntarily. BUT you can't get more than a dozen to appear publicly in uniform.

REQUIRING these kids - especially those in Middle School, the most pressured "conform" to the norm time in their lives, to go out talking about Scouting to "publicly" admit that THEY are Scouts. You're going to see a lot more kids who'll never make First Class unless this requirement is widely ignored at the Unit level.

Just another example of how out of touch National is - and how desperate they are to boost "numbers".

And BTW, it strikes me and ALL of our local leaders that the reference to "Friends of Scouting" in the revised Cub Scout manuals is completely INAPPROPRIATE in a book for kids. It's bad enough that BSA is trying to force FOS presentations on Units (it's now a REQUIREMENT for units), but this is over the line.

Food for thought......on many levels

I am NOT saying that BSA is Fascist but there are disturbing similarities noted in CAPITAL LETTERS as addendums to the original.

The fact that one can even make such a comparison should be DEEPLY disturbing.

"Characteristics of Fascism

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

PRETTY CLEAR PARALLEL

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

REPHRASE AS "IGNORING INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS IN SUPRESSING DISSENT AND QUESTIONING" - FREE SPEECH SEEMS NOT TO BE A RIGHT IN BSA. YOU CAN BE THROWN OUT FOR EXPRESSING DISSENT.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

IT'S THE LIBERALS, THE ACLU, GAY RIGHTS GROUPS, DECLINING "VALUES"

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

BSA VIEWS THE US MILITARY AS A STRONG PARTNER - AND VICE-VERSA

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

ONLY RECENTLY HAS BSA LOOSENED THEIR ATTITUDES TOWARDS WOMEN AND GIRLS (ISN'T THAT THE WHOLE REASON FOR VENTURING?)

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

THERE IS A CLEAR "IMAGE" PRESENTED BY BSA AND BSA DOES USE "INFLUENCE" TO TRY TO PRESENT THE MOST POSITIVE IMAGE POSSIBLE AND KEEP NEGATIVE NEWS SUPRESSED. EVER READ SOME OF THE BSA LITERATURE ON "PUBLIC RELATIONS?"

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

ANY QUESTIONING OF BSA IS REPOSITIONED AS AN "ATTACK"

8. Religion and Government are intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

BSA HAS STRONG RELIGIOUS UNDERTONES "OFFICIALLY" - AND TOUTS IT REGULARLY

9. Corporate Power is protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

THOSE IN POWER IN BSA PROTECT THEIR POWER

10. Labor Power is suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

REPHRASE AS "THE POWER OF VOLUNTEER MEMBERS - THE 'WORKERS' - IS SEVERELY LIMITED" THOSE THAT DO THE WORK HAVE LITTLE SAY IN HOW THINGS ARE RUN.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

NOT DIRECTLY APPLICABLE

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

EVER READ "PROCEDURES FOR MAINTAINING STANDARDS OF MEMBERSHIP?" - IT DOES NOT READ LIKE AN AMERICAN TEXT - NO 'RIGHTS' FOR 'THE ACCUSED'

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

THE CRONYISM IS CLEAR ENOUGH TO BE COMMENTED ON BY OTHERS AND THERE ARE CLEAR SIGNS OF CORRUPTION. BSA HAS VERY WELL PAID LEADERSHIP AND ISSUES WITH FAKED PERFORMANCE AND QUESTIONABLE CIRCUMSTANCES BEHIND MANY PROPERTY SALES RAISE QUESTIONS.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

BSA TIGHTLY CONTROLs WHO IS 'ELECTED' AS 'REPRESENTATIVES' HANDPICKING CANDIDATES AND ALLOWING ONLY VOTES FOR OR AGAINST WHOLE SLATES

(Source: The Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism, Dr. Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003, Free Inquiry)

And again the focus on LOYAL and OBEDIENT.

Hence my comparisons to totalitarian organizations. And a small amount of time Googling the organizations I mentioned would reveal quotes that are almost identical to arguments made here. NOT pointing out such behavior and mindsets is "unAmerican" and would be "disrespectful" to those that suffered the results of those showing unquestioning obedience and loyalty.

We should be "glad" that BSA is merely throwing out "dissidents" -slandering them in the process. They should be happy I suppose that they are not jailed or worse....lol. And this despite assurances that BSA listens to its members and has mechanisms in place for registering their concerns.......

Again, the fact that the arguments being made here to support BSA so closely echo statements made by organizations that are SO "un-American" should raise grave concerns from other supporters of Scouting.

Why do SO many people - even here - fear expressing sentiments that question BSA policy? Because they can be thrown out and ARE thrown out for doing so.

Is this right?

SHOULD this happen in Scouting?

According to some, it should.

We should ALL be horrified at that mindset.

BSA claims to be about character, values - ethics and morals.....there's a big difference between standing up for what's ethical and moral - which BSA claims to teach boys - and unquestioning obedience.

Again - "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

Nothing is said about being being loyal and obeying......ETHICAL and MORAL choices are the focus.

The Scout Law (which lists TRUSTWORTHY first) is the "guide" for making decisions ethically and morally - and THAT is where Mr. White's arguments fall flat.

Ethical and moral choices are SUPPOSED to be the primary focus in Scouting. "Loyalty and obedience are but supplementary parts of the Scout Law which is to GUIDE Scouts in making ethical and moral choices - NOT "dictate" what should be done.

In contrast "Loyalty and Obedience" are the primary focus of the Komosol and other totalitarian youth organizations.

ANY organization that puts "Loyalty" first should be cause for concern in ANY democratic and free society.

"No one with half an oncde of civility in them buys into your tripe of comparing an organizations ability to expect its volunteers members to speak well of the group to that of nazi Germany. That is just sick. "

What's "sick" are the arguments that a few have made to defend the clearly indefensible..... some of the arguments offered by BSA supporters are almost VERBATUM to those offered by Fascists and Communists and SHOULD be appalling to ANYONE in Scouting.

"Loyalty" and "Obedience" do NOT trump "Truthfulness."

"Shut up and do your duty, obey your superiors" (paraphrasing) is an oft repeated retort when FACTS cannot be refuted. Mindless defense of clear wrongdoing is NOT a value that Scouting should teach.

American values embrace discourse and dissent - we do NOT stifle them....though apparently BSA does. An autocracy is an autocracy - the tactic and words change little from one to another.

I smell a troll - BSA Atlanta finally realize others are talking about this?

"Sloppy record keeping" does not account for the VAST discrepancies in counts here. From even 15,000 to 5,000???? C'mon. And NOBODY saw this......nobody noticed THOSE kids weren't at Council events?

Even the current situation shows a 30% overstatement between "enrolled" and "active" USING BSA'S OWN AUDIT NUMBERS.

BSA shows plenty of "diversity" in its literature. If only reality matched the marketing. If you had something to be proud of you can be sure BSA would track thise statistics. Again, the LACK of hard numbers ANYWHERE in BSA's annual reports is too typical of an organization "playing games" in ALL areas. BSA is NOT open or transparent. Why?

Again, TRANSPARENCY would end this and all the other concerns expressed about BSA.

But BSA REFUSES outside audits and REFUSES to open up its books - even to its own members.

Sure seems like there's alot that needs hiding.....all the other symptoms of corporate fraud and failure are here..... faked results, whistleblowers punished or slandered, overpaid executives focused on holding onto their jobs, NOT doing them.....

A house of cards can only stand for so long.......

Will "Scouting" here survive a collapse?

IF BSA has nothing to hide in Atlanta, why not shut up the critics and publicly muster even the 1000 scouts Beasley challenged them to?

So, WHY NOT allow an independent adit of membership? Analyze race AND income. Other groups do so.

Again, openness and transparency are not to be feared when there is nothing to hide.

Funny, but Girl Scouts keeps track of race. So do other groups - in detail. BSA seems to deliberately AVOID doing so - perhaps because (as many say) they have done such a poor job in serving minority youth.

BSA claimed variously to serve 23,000, 15,000 or 10,000 "disadvantaged" youth in Atlanta.

THEIR OWN AUDIT showed just over 5,000 youth enrolled - with 3,400 "active."

THAT is from BSA's HANDPICKED auditors. Others claim that number is overstated.

If the argument is made that race does NOT define "disadvantaged" then why did BSA itslef so regularly focus on the black boys in the few real inner city units when talking about this program - they felt themselves to be regularly marched out for photo-ops but otherwise ignored.

Frankly, those behind BSFT made a point of not wanting to be confrontational about this and have been trying to resolve this OUT of the media.

Like it or not, there seems to be more than enough to support their claims. United Way is still witholding funds.

And given BSA's history in dealing with disadvantaged youth in my Council, I have no real evidence to show that any of these efforts are anything but pr - lacking real substance.

BSA's history has too many cases of DE's pressured to lie about numbers and SE's more than willing to fire those that did NOT do so - instead of punishing those that did lie (well as long as nobody found out).

It is clear that there were MAJOR problems in Atlanta. Are they over? Has the truth come out?

Given the current closed mouth atmosphere, skepticism is warranted. Again, transparency and openness - an independent audit - would defuse this situation completely. Why WON'T BSA allow this?

Pretty simple solution.

"As I have observed in other threads, for BSA the freedom of association seems to trump the freedom of speech (so much for using THEIR example for the citizenship badges). Anyway, I decided to focus on the boys and the local unit and to try not to sweat the stuff I clearly do not control.

It is for this reason that I AM careful to control access to my identity when voicing my opinions, here and elsewhere, and keep everything I do along those lines way below the radar. "

And how sad - or appalling - is that? and back to the basic question - HOW is real change or reform possible in BSA when those pushing for change have to fear expulsion?

BSA seems to have adopted a philosophy more appropriate for the Comosol or Hitler Youth in this respect and some are far too willing to defend this position.

Obey or leave. Do not question ANYTHING. If you do not keep quiet or leave willingly, we will make you leave.

"Hypothetically, for a leader who has no other membership transgressions, what would it take in the form of public criticism to get the ax?"

It seems like "not much" - and you can get thrown out even when you're right. Just WHY were you "warned"? What happened to "free speech?"

Willis was thrown out after questioning enrollment numbers.

Here a leader was thrown out over protesting property sales and the removal of long serving volunteers from District and Council positions who had done the same.

In NE GA, a scout and their parent were thrown out for complaining about a DE buying beer for counselors at camp (but were later reinstated when the DE was caught DUI and the SE caught in an IRS investigation).

I personally know of cases where the VICTIMS of "wrongdoing" were thrown out to "keep them quiet" and protect the reputations of professionals. I will not go into details because these cases are still in appeal.

BSA has recently shown a disturbing trend in throwing out critics with VALID criticisms - or even arbitrarily because a local SE wants to get rid of someone they don't like.

And these abuses continue and are INCREASING because BSA takes the "corporate stance" and figures that with attorneys on retainer they can outspend anyone. BSA will throw out questioners before admitting wrongdoing by paid staff.

THIS should be a VERY DISTURBING trend to ANYONE in Scouting.

BSA claims it "listens" to its members and respects their opinions.

Dave Rice has a record rarely matched in Scouting yet he was thrown out for daring to question the "radioactive" issue of "membership criteria."

Having survived THAT storm, BSA now seems to feel that it's far easier to simply throw people when confronted with ANY questions they cannot answer.

This threat has surfaced regularly (and been carried out) in too many cases of enrollment fraud.....The whistleblower (volunteer or paid) is thrown out.

THIS is another warning sign of a corrupt organization in trouble....threaten and throw out those raising valid questions that you can't answer.....

Knaul is but one case. And interestingly, his Troop and CO continues to support his involvement. BSA has "warned" the CO but done nothing else - afraid, it seems of bringing more publicity to this case. The local Council there has gotten regular and increasing criticism for the inept leadership of its SE and hand-picked Board. Many Scouters there believe their small Council exists ONLY to provide a paid position for the SE.

Another thread elsewhere supports a volunteer leader who has a past criminal record but shown no problems in recent years. Yet BSA is throwing out long serving leaders who oppose "unethical" actions by their Scout Executive and/or Council Leadership. Tom Willis in Greater Alabama was thrown out of BSA the same day his charges of fraudulent overstatement were proven true. Ronnie Holmes - the SE there was caught inflating counts for the second time in 5 years. Mr. Willis is in court right now. Mr. Knaul cannot afford to go that route - something BSA counts on.

Four questions:

Why are these revocations occurring?

Why is BSA throwing out critics instead of responding to their challenges?

Why are volunteers FORCED to take BSA to court - an expensive and time consuming endeavor which few can afford - simply to be treated fairly?

Is this removal "ethical or moral"?

Note that BSA's own procedures do NOT support such removals. There had to be grounds or cause for legal action, misrepresentation or immoral acts for Mr. Knaul to have his membership revoked under "Procedures for Maintaining Standards of Membership" Lacking those grounds BSA regulations state a Unit Scouter can ONLY Be removed by his Chartering Organization. The Chartering Organization for his Troop opposes his removal as do a number of Scout leaders in his and other Councils.

Note: Mr. Knaul's revocation was upheld (well over a YEAR later) despite letters of support from a wide range of community members. His Council's overstated membership counts have shown substantial "decreases" since recent enrollment scandals have broken.

Mr. Knaul was finally told that his registration was revoked for being one of 23 signatures on a letter to a local paper questioning why his SMALL Council was spending $500,000 on unneeded new offices instead of on boys. Yet he was removed unjustly under procedures drawn up to "protect boys" in violation of procedures that are supposed to apply to a UNIT Scouter.

Provided since I keep getting accused of "making things up"

BW can find more on a simple Google Search "Knaul Boy Scouts". I've persoanlly talked to Mr. Knaul. Nice guy, dedicated to Scouting - still. Another case where an incompetent professional is making a mess of a Council. Of note, the SE there lied about meeting fundraising goals for those new offices and continued colledcting donations after meeting his goal. The trustees who made the matching payments publicly questioned why funds were STILL being solicited after they provided the funds needed.

"WEDNESDAY SEPTEMBER 14, 2005 Last modified: Saturday, January 31, 2004 11:28 PM EST

Knaul awaits decision on ban

By Rob Varley / Staff Writer

With his future in the Boy Scouts of America resting on a decision from the organization's national headquarters in Irving, Texas, local scoutmaster Richard Knaul is publicly defending his record.

Knaul had his membership revoked by the local Cayuga County Boy Scouts Council in September, and is facing a lifetime ban from the organization. A decision is expected from the national office in May.

The 66-year-old Owasco man, a decorated scoutmaster with nearly 35 years of service, contends he is being pushed out of scouts for publicly opposing the county council's proposal for a $500,000 service center.

"I've never been a patch collector," Knaul said. "I enjoy teaching the kids the ways of Scouting. I enjoy seeing them grow up."

In January 2003, Knaul wrote a letter to The Citizen, urging people not to support a proposed BSA service center. He argued that more programs, not a new center, were needed in the area.

He believes the original letter led to the some officials wanting to "kick him out."

Since September, Knaul's Troop 21 is being run by Mark Rogers. But Knaul still attends the weekly meetings at Sacred Heart Church, along with the troop's 22 scouts. He has also joined the group on camping trips helping to maintain what he calls a "two-deep leadership," and continues to wear his scoutmaster uniform.

"A lot of people at the church and parents say, 'Stick with it. Glad to see you wearing a uniform. Glad to see you here,'" he said.

Council President Donald Simpson, who once awarded Knaul with the "Wood Badge ticket" marking the highest level of scoutmaster training, sent him a revocation letter.

"In the letter, it was stated he has to disassociate himself with the program immediately. That's pretty clear," said Simpson. But he's not surprised to hear Knaul is still actively involved with Troop 21.

"I'm sure there's long-time friendships there. You just don't walk away from your friends," he said.

Simpson said The Citizen letter was not the entire basis for Knaul's dismissal. "It was a part of it. Simply a part of it," he said.

"It was not a decision made radically, quickly or anything else of that nature. It finally came down to the fact that he shouldn't be part of the operation of the council. No one disputes the fact he gave a lot of time and effort to his troop. He's delivered a satisfactory program. That's not what the issue was."

He wouldn't elaborate on other reasons behind Knaul's dismissal. He said the approximately 18-member executive committee made the decision.

Knaul, a former electrician and BOCES instructor, joined the Boy Scouts in 1948 as a child. While he served in the Navy in Bainbridge, Md., he was an assistant scoutmaster.

"I was active until I went to sea," he said. "Pretty hard to do it out there."

When he returned from duty, Knaul got involved with the Sea Scout unit, Ship 25, in Auburn.

"When my kids came along, I dropped out until they were old enough to join the Boy Scouts," he said.

Scouting became a family affair for the Knauls. His sons, David, 30, and John, 28, were Eagle Scouts. His wife, Barbara, was a Girl Scout leader. His daughter, Kate, 28, was a Girl Scout.

Knaul said there are council board members who support him. "They're going to tell you the whole executive board made the decision. I'm sure they will tell you that," Knaul said, adding other board members who agree with him would be reluctant to come forward.

He believes Simpson and Scout Executive Don Grillo made the decision.

In his letter, Knaul wrote that proposing $500,000 for a center and a scout executive position when membership was seriously declining was not "ethical."

"He would be wrong," said Simpson bluntly.

Simpson said the executive board had weekly meetings regarding the service center for approximately six months. Renting, leasing, and buying were all discussed. The local council and supportive community leaders wanted the BSA chapter to have an autonomous presence in the area.

"It's not going to be a Taj Mahal. It's not going to be spartan, but a relatively modest building. I don't think that's excessive," Simpson said.

He pointed out that only $250,000 went toward building costs. The other money was dedicated to operation costs. The building would house a training center, administrative offices and a scout shop. He said owning the service center gives them an asset if they have to consolidate.

When the case went before the regional BSA headquarters in New Jersey, Knaul said they sided with the local chapter but it was "not a unanimous decision."

Knaul considered his case unique.

"As I have told the region, I feel they definitely have to do something about this council," he said. "I don't know of any other cases like mine."

For Knaul, the solution may be going back to basics - building character, fostering citizenship, and developing fitness.

"I'm influenced a lot by the whole Boy Scout organization. I have nothing against the Boy Scout organization at all," he said.

When Sacred Heart Church sets up for their Chef's Night on Thursday, Knaul will be there with his troop assisting for their community service project. He will continue to make as many expeditions as he can.

Boy Scouts of America national spokesman Greg Shields did not return repeated phone calls asking for comment on the Knaul case.

Would the local council accept Knaul's official return?

"I guess we would have to," Simpson said. "Although if he truly is as bitter as he is making out and is against the council, I don't know why he would be part of it in the first place."

Knaul said he just wants to help the young scouts. "I will continue to do whatever I can for the troop," Knaul said. "I have a lot of money invested in uniforms if (the council) wants to buy them."

"To recap, for those not familiar with the situation in the Atlanta Area Council: For several years, DE's in the city districts have overstated troop and individual numbers. It is unfortunate, but it is a fact. This came to light last spring. An auditing firm was asked to review numbers, and confirmed this. The scout executive was asked to resign, which he did. An interim executive was brought in over the summer. The Atlanta Area Council hired a new executive in August, and his first day on the job is today.

The council recognized the problem, the head of the organization resigned ( it happened on his watch ) and new leadership has been brought in to complete the reorganization.

Atlanta, like other large metropolitan areas, struggles with ways to effectively bring scouting to innercity youth. Simply put, there is a lack of adult involvement. Many of the scoutmasters are paid professionals. While scouting is 'boy lead' it requires dedicated adults to deliver an effective program"

The ISSUE is that the LOCAL UNIT LEADERS involved in this program openly dispute even the GREATLY reduced claims of 5000 "enrolled members" - saying THEY - from first-hand knowledge - see more like 500 (five HUNDRED) boys in this program. The LOCAL BSA leaders see an UNWILLINGNESS to look closer to determine REAL numbers, a CLEAR attempt to deflect BLAME to low level paid staff and a continunace of "business as usual". Those questioning the numbers have been EXCLUDED from efforts to "fix" the problem. Why exclude the MOST familiar and knowledgeable leaders if you really want a SUCCESSFUL program? Why EXCLUDE those that ARE successful? This make sense only of you want the cover-up to continue and are unable to refute their claims of EVEN LOWER numbers.

Again, the whole issue has shown BSA being less than open and transparent in the original FRAUDULENT overstatement, the "investigation" and the "committment" to "improving and FIXING the problem. THOSE on the FRONT LINES in Atlanta are the ones saying this, not me. I'm simply reporting THEIR words. Feel free to contact those involved - their web site welcomes comments and questions. I've spent a fair amount of time correspionding woith them via e-mail and on the phone trying to fully understand what has happened there. Has anyone here done the same?

As far others go, despite their protestations, I doubt they will ever "get" it.

If your organization claims to teach moral and ethical "decision making" and makes "character" its core value, you should show those "values." It is hypocritical to say "these problems only happen in a small number of cases" and make excuses for the INACTION of NATIONAL leadership that allows these incidents to continue - without ANY consequences for those breaking both the Scout Law and US Law. THAT is the crux of it all.

Spin away, excuse away.....what is wrong is wrong.

If you simply want to "obey" mindlessly and could care less about the "values" being espoused there are many organizations that are far more open about their goals and consistent about achieving them - showing no hypocrisy at all.......

"Bringing up issues is one things, MAKING them up is another.

jhnky's arguments are exaggerations of the actual situations. He has repeatedly fictionalized the reports and the magnitude of the issues. He has also failed to show any measurable effect the he claims has resulted from this exaggerated events.

It is rumor mongering at it lowest. The BSA is no more or less transparent than any other corporation of its type. Jhnky just doesn't like windows, He gets far more enjoyment from his own imagination. He thinks the BSA is clandestine when actully he has just never been interested in learning about it. The council he lives in is selling a piece of land they own and jhnky is distraught that an entire council doesn't stop and do what he and a few of his friends want them to do.

This whole uproar he is hosting over Smith, and membership falsification that was found in about 1% of council charters over several years, is a personal campaign because he thinks it was his camp to do with as he wants.

He is not "bringing up issues, he is having a temper tantrum. "

When you can't refute the facts, attack the person bringing them up.

This may be one of the reasons few people even bother to try to speak out......those that raise issues are attacked and driven out of BSA.....

So again, the response is If you don't like it, leave.

Unfortunately THAT is precisely what IS happening in BSA. Adults (and boys) ARE leaving.

Older volunteers are dying off and NOT being replaced. Anyone else a bit embarrassed at the average age of Disrtict and Council level volunteers? Maybe they aren't quitting, they're simply DYING.

BSA is FAILING as an organization - by whatever standards you use to measure "success." Yet when people TRY to address the NUMEROUS issues and problems in BSA they are "silenced", "punished" and even thrown out of BSA. This is hardly in compliance with the guiding principles BSA itself quotes.

But, it IS far easier to throw out critics than respond to them.

Why stay? First of all my SONS have little interest in Girl Scouts. Second, MY family has been involved in and supported Scouting HERE, in THIS Council for DECADES - over 70 years. I'll be damned if I'll walk away and let some 5 year contract professional kill Scouting here. Besides, "A scout is brave - they speak up for what they believe in." And isn't is better to try and FIX problems than let them fester and destroy an organization.