JerseyJohn

Here is more detailed information

Click here for the full CoL camping committee report - 11 page PDF

John

I forwarded my comments to CoL Council. Given Philadelphia's history, perhaps someone who works for or on behalf of the council has knowledge iof historical preservation. The issue is keeping TI open and exploring paths to do so. Let's not muddy the thread by debating what camp was open when.

I am from the southern NJ council and we are going to TI this Friday. Out of council folks should be able to voice their opinion since we all use each other's facilities. There may be a trail to saving Treasure Island.

There may be people involved at Cradle of Liberty (Philadelphia) who are far more familiar with this designation than I.

National Historic Landmark Status

A National Historic Landmark (NHL) is a building, site, structure, object, or district, that is officially recognized by the United States government for its historical significance. All NHLs are listed in the National Register of Historic Places. Out of more than 80,000 U.S.-listed historic places, however, only about 2,430 are NHLs. It may include contributing properties that have buildings, structures, sites or objects, and it may include non-contributing properties.

Criteria

NHLs are designated by the United States Secretary of the Interior because they are:

* Sites where events of national historical significance occurred;

* Places where prominent persons lived or worked;

* Icons of ideals that shaped the nation;

* Outstanding examples of design or construction;

* Places characterizing a way of life; or

* Archeological sites able to yield information.

Given the history of TI and the national impact of the Scouting Program and the Order of the Arrow on conservation, service, a way of life, America's first Scout Camp, et al, National Historic Landmark status (if applicable) would open the door to federal funding (maintenance) and relieve CoL council of a percentage of the financial burden.

CoL, please explore all options.

Regards,

John

Here is what I did and it worked like a charm

We used to pile 3, 4, or 5 scout patrols and the leaders into ONE campsite. I started renting two or three site at BSA council camps at weekend outings. They are inexpensive and well worth spending the extra 15.00 per weekend (you going to pay the $1 per boy regardless, so you are only renting extra sites. That will only run the boys one more dollar for the trip....

Split the patrols between two campsites and the adults take the third site and walla....you become out of sight - out of mind.

BP said kepe the patrols 150 to 300 feet away from each other! How many SM's actually do that?

They want independence and freedom - then give it to them and watch them perform.

John

FWIW

My Troop of 55 registered / 40 actives had six Eagles in calendar year 2007

3 - 16 yo

1 - 17.3 yo

1 - 17.9 yo

John

My troop did a weekend out of Henson called survivor. Canoe trip thru the Blackwater Wildlife Refuge, MRE's, tarp shelter. Pictures are here. http://www.troop184.com/PictureShow.aspx?dir=2434&img=40294 Run out of Del Mar Va council

John

55 scouts - six patrols - SPL 17 year old Life

Green Bar replaces one monthly meeting. SPL, 2 ASPL, 6 PL's, Scribe, Instructor, and Quartermaster, myself and one ASM.

They take 75 to 90 minutes. They are held on the last Wed of the month and are used to plan the upcoming month. All troop meeting plans are established - skills session instructors, service patrol (set up and tear down) Game patrol.

They review past month activities, plan next month, make all troop meeting agendas for the next month, old and new business. Pretty straight forward.

I could not imagine doing a 30 minute Green Bar before or after a meeting.....

YIS,

SM John

We institued a new meeting feature at the request of the senior scouts. First a little background

65 scouts of which troop meetings average 35 to 40 scouts, mostly junior scouts. I have 2 patrols of crossovers (14 boys) and 2 patrols of last years crossovers (16)

The senior scouts have been griping about "camping with the little kids" and "been there, done that" so I called their bluff.

We meet on Wed. nights, so, the first Wednesday of every month the senior scouts get a room to themselves to plan their own high adventure / extra curricular activity. Scouts must be 14 and 1st class to participate. They have their session during skills sessions and then during the patrol sessions, an ASM or I meet with them and "review" what they have been discussing and provide guidance as needed or asked.

All participants must bring ideas to the table, develop, plan and execute their plans. Some ideas so far have been a 21 mile two night trip on the Applachian Trail, a trip to a TV and radio station, a guest speaker on finding a job and interview skills, a guest speaker on obtaining a drivers license, and a summer camp week at ranger school in Georgia for summer 2008 .

There are several upsides to this

1. It is a carrot for the younger scouts

2. Senior scouts have 100% ownership of their program in which they will sink or swim on their own accord.

3. I am seeing more older scouts at meetings.

Time will tell.....

YIS,

John

Lisabob,

My scenario in the Patrol Realignment thread is similar.

My SPL, the PL and I talked and it was decided to give them until the end of this year to get their act together. Knock of the bickering, everyone do their duty, no whining, no more BS at campouts, etc. The troop will not allow negative interactions of the few, to take away from the positive learning experiences and interactions of the many.

Should it come down to it, the two patrol's in question (both crossed last year) are going to be divided by rank, ability, and skill. This will provide for more stratified patrols.

It has been my experience that boys that no one else wants in their patrols are generally the one's who do not participate. Do you have enough of them to form their own patrol. Call them the Part Time Patrol - if you will. This would force one of them to take charge and step up.

If a 3 of 8 has no interest in advancing, carry on, and generally are in scouts for camping I would make it clearly known to the few that that is not what the BSA is about. If they just want to go camping, tell them to ask their parents to take them. If they want to become better men today, tomorrow and next year, tell them to get with the program and stop wasting your time.

This can also be addressed during Scout Spirit review. Not signing off on that once, twice, or three times will make them open their eye's.

My two cents.

YIS,

John

ASM915,

I forgot to elaborate on the other questions you had....

How large of a town and what kind of traffic flow are we talking about, small town, mid-size city?

Pretty much your standard, suburban township.

How many vehicles per hour?

No clue but not extremely heavy traffic and not light either.

Any drinks or just Hoagies? - Just hoagies

Same meat or different kinds? All Italian. Never order them with oil because the rolls get soggy pretty fast. Be sure they are individually wrapped.

How many scouts?

Every location had a Field Leader or Cmte member and a parent but the intersection had four adults, one per corner.

Ice cream place - 4 scouts

Church - 5 scouts

School parking lot 1 - 5 scouts

School parking lot 2 - 4 scouts

School parking lot 3 - 6 scouts

Supermarket - 4 scouts

Town Intersection - 8 scouts

WHO MADE 900 HOAGIES FOR YOU ON SAT. MORNING?

A local deli - they certainly are friendly, courteous and kind. I'm sure you could google and / or call around and find a similar deal in your neck of the woods.

I am the SM and Fundraiser guy + I do sales and marketing for a living, so I get a little creative. The name of this event is called "Hoagie Mania". Give an event a name with "flair" and the boys just can't stay away.

YIS,

John

ASM915,

They are made by a local deli. I don't know what time they get to work but it is probably the time the average scout falls asleep on a Friday night :-)

Is your July festival during 4th of July festivities? Perhaps a craft booth tailored to patriotic items. Maybe run a woodworking MB in April / May and make Uncle Sam items, etc. Then have the scouts staff the booth and sell them. Just a thought.

A race could be tough because I believe you have to pay for security, pay for police to block roads, etc

I run a golf tournament in April for our troop. I call it St. George's Cup. In three weeks we will have our second one. Last year we had 78 golfers and 15 diners and we made over four grand.

YIS,

John(This message has been edited by JerseyJohn)

Steve,

We tried a sit down once and it went over like a box of rocks. Lot's of prep work, many hours and about 800 net. For my troop anyway, they seem to require lot's of time.

We do the hoagies because it is

1. Make a phone call to order X hoagies

2. Pick them up

3. Sell them

4. 4 hours - done

We may try another sit down though - especially with the place mat idea ala longhaul

Longhaul,

I love the place mat idea......very creative

Eagle90,

Does your rummage sale basically go like this....

Hear ye, hear ye, bring out your dusty, good for nothing, stored away, unwrapped, never looked at again gifts and misc. products and donate them to the troop.

The troop then sells all the goods and keeps 100% of the profit????

YIS,

John

Just sharing what we did and how we did it in case you may want to emulate.

I scouted out multiple locations in our township that allowed for a drive thru hoagie sale. They were primarily school and church parking lots, plus an ice cream shop, and an ACME supermarket. I received permission from the onwner of each location.

We had signs printed (a scout Dad is a printer) and laminated them for future use. The signs were mounted to "election sign" metal frames.

We posted the signs like the 1950's barbasol signs that were read as drivers came up to road toward the "drive thru's"

In order of appearance to the drivers the signs read

Boy Scout

Hoagie Sale

Ten Inch Hoagies

Drive Thru

EZ On / EZ Out

$4.00 / Thank You

The boys were in position at 10:15am and all were back at 13:30. We bought 900 hoagies for 2.50 and sold out.

Worked for us.

YIS,

John

Since we are off the original topic, I will chime in on the new one....

Patrols are autonomous but they do, and must report to h igher authority. Not necessarily for direction, but for advice and guidance.

Analogies - SURE

Military

A patrol may operate independently, in a manner they deem fit to get the mission done, given the mission they accepted or were tasked to do. THe SPL is the General, the SM is the Chaimrman of the joint chiefs, and the ASM's are the Chief of Staff

Business unit

A patrol operates to get the job done in manner they seem fit but are held accountable for their sucess or failure. The SPL may be the PResident or owner of the business, but he must fill in the Board (SM and ASM's)

One need not get into all the details to lead, only see that the mission is accomplished.

YIS,

John

I would add the following two merit badges to Eagle Required

Entrepreneurship

With this MB as a prerequisite to American Business

American Business

Alter Req #5 to be organizing and running a troop fundraiser

________________

We expect them to contribute and pay their way. This provides a tool to do so. It also take the mysticism and magic out of business. Young men (and adults)see business as a lucky break, when in fact it generally is not.

With offshoring, outsourcing, etc, etc, it is in ones best long term interest to work for themselves - providing they can find somehting practicial to make a go of it.

Running a troop fundraiser is a great way to introduce them to haow business operates and provides a revenus stream of sorts for the troop.

YIS,

John

(This message has been edited by JerseyJohn)

WOW - that was quick...Thanks

Longhaul,

Thanks for the fire drill perspective. Realignments had been done in the past for reasons of drops or add's, therefore, it is not unusual to have 2 to 5 boys move each year.

Eagledad,

Trouble is that the go getters are doing it right, they would make an exemplary patrol. I agree on the leadership / delegation issue.

Jblake,

What do the boys want? The motivated want to get together and expressed it at Green Bar last night. I feel it necessary to have the SPL, and two ASPL's involved with the process as it is their troop and if I allow two patrols to do what they please, it would undermine the authority and position of the SPL & ASPL's.

YIS,

John

Provide the parents a copy of the aims and methods and simply ask them a question

1. Which troop do you believe serves those purposes best?

YIS,

John

Greetings Scouters,

I am looking your objective comments and advice. I am SM for a troop of 65 scouts. I have eight patrols, and I'll try to make a long story short....

Two patrols from last years crossovers, Patrol A and Patrol B, each have seven scouts.

Patrol A - Four are 1st Class, one of which is up for BOR in April for Star) and motivated, the others are slackers or minimal participants.

Patrol B One is 1st Class and should be up for Star BOR in May, he is a real leader (his sister is GS Gold) and the balance of his patrol is immature and somewhat simply realying on him all the time.

My observations:

I have watched the strong try to motiviate, lead and get the others to do their duty. Rather than complain, they just get it done (leading by example), while some have a "free ride".

Thoughts:

The motivated are getting it done but are carrying extra weight, which is simply not fair to them as they complete their duties PLUS additional duties. It is challenging enough to be 11 or 12 and learn leadership but they are frustrated at banging their head against the wall learning, practicing, striving to develop a unified patrol and not seeing results.

The two motivated PL's and the SPL approached me about patrol realignment. The motivated from each patrol want to form their own patrol and leave the unmotivated, slackers. The are real go getters. They do their own thing, always operate on a business then pleasure principle.

Conflict:

If I leave it as is, the motivated will continue to carry the load and possibly be "dragged down" and at the same time, the slackers will learn nothing because "somebody else will do it"

If I realign,

Patrol A will operate very well and succeed in a Participative Leadership style while Patrol B would then be be in a leadership vacuum, left to sink or swim.

What would you do?

I appreciate your input.

YIS,

John

I have made two changes since taking over as SM and they apply to methods of camping. 1. I eliminated troop field kitchens; 2. Requiring patrols to really camp in a more isolated, independent fashion.

Kitchen

It had been that all patrol boxes and cooking gear were co-located. This made for "Too many cooks in the kitchen". I now require that the patrols set up their patrol kitchen wherever they set up their patrol at camp.

Patrol Camp site

The patrols are spread out, traditional style, as far from each other as they can be.

This does a few things....

Gives them true independence as a functioning patrol. It's just them, 200 feet away from everyone else.

Increases their self reliance, they can't easily ask members of another patrol how to do something - they have to rely on each other.

Avoids what I call "Critical Mass" A group of scouts greater than X, in any situation, will increase the madness by a factor of four.

Reinforces their patrol bond due to "isolation". They set up their turf, take ownership of it, and get it done more effectively.

______________

A boy leader will always be more effective in a patrol setting than he will be in a larger group setting. It is a more conducive environment for the cream to rise to the top, allow the PL to be a true leader for the other boys in his charge.

The patrols more readily develop a patrol identity. They are more open to being critical of the slacker scout when not in the immediate vicinity of another patrol or adult.

Also known as "Divide and Conquer" :-)

YIS,

John

I have always had an appreciatiojn for quotes. I merge and modify them around a common theme to make my scoutmaster minutes. The series of ..... is for pauses Here is the one I am using at Crossover

OPPORTUNITY

The moment when you first wake up in the morning is the most wonderful moment of the day. No matter how tired or sleepy you may feel, it is completely guaranteed...that during the day that lies before you...absolutely anything may happen.

Look for small opportunities...because they are often the beginning of great accomplishments. The fact is that opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.

The important thing is this...To be able at any moment to sacrifice what you are...for what you could become...

Make it a point to do something every day that you don't want to do. This is the golden rule for acquiring the habit of doing your duty without pain. You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You must do the thing which you think you cannot do.

Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.

The greatest danger is not that our aim is too high and we miss it...but that it is too low...and we reach it.

Hello Again,

Forgot to mention that I have two variations of patrol meal planning and shopping forms on my troop website.

http://www.troop184.com/forms.aspx

Feel free to have a look and see if it is something you would find useful for your scouts.

YIS,

John

How we do it.......

Patrol top ten list

- Decided by patrol the meeting before the Green Bar annual planning meeting

At the Green Bar planning meeting, the six patrols present their "Dream Sheets"

Then the negotiations and discussions begin (with a little bickering thrown in for good measure).

They break it down to a troop top ten.

It is reviewed by the committee. It is usually rubber stamped unless they have a long string of expensive trips which can exclude some scouts due to funding. In which case we recommend that the GB reconsider a distant or expensive trip and replace it with a more local trip. If they persist, I'll recommend they consider a dual trip weekend.

About 16 scouts took a long distance trip that cost 100.00 per. So we also offerred a local campout for $20.00 and another 25 or went on the local trip.

Everyone won and more boys participated that weekend.

YIS,

John

What my boys do....

At my Green Bar, the boys plan all of the upcoming months meeting plans, which includes;

1. Service patrol

2. Game patrol

3. Skills session activities and instructor(s)

4. Announcements

YIS,

John

C-Bolt,

Congratulations on earning Eagle.

I like your style, very similar to my SPL. He never yells.

I teach my Green Bar that leadership does not mean yelling Clean Up, Get Breakfast Started, Patrol the area or Get Moving.

Leadership speaks qietly and says Join Me ---- Join Me in the task at hand.

We have a saying in our troop - Do Your Duty

and everyone in the troop knows our definition of duty

Duty - something you really don't want to do, but you do it anyway.

I wish you continued success young man.

YIS,

John

Our troop has one ASM assigned as Grubmaster. Each patrol going camping is required to have two shoppers. There are anywhere from three to six patrols per campout. The budget is 13.00 to 15.00 per person for the weekend. We pay with a troop check.

We meet at the store Thursday night, parents accompany the two patrol shoppers to be sure they are looking for deals and not just grabbing the first pancake mix they see. Teach them to comparison shop and generally keep them focused.

We all meet at the checkout, single file, and get a sub total by patrol. If they are over budget, out go the chip's, soda or other misc. garbage food.

Then we all meet at the barn, put perishables in the fridge, frozen in the freezer and dry goods in the grub boxes. At Friday evening departure the shoppers need to gather their food, load it in their patrol cooler / grub box. Load the trailer and off we go...

Works for us

YIS,

John