jark

They have tried to get a response from the DAC. It looks like he was the one that was partially at least holding things up. The other reason I'm trying to follow this along is that I'm planning on taking over for the DAC this summer so I want to understand how we got to this point in case this kind of thing happens under my watch. She's trying to get ahold of the DE now to see what he knows about all this. The family is not new to the general process. His older brother is an Eagle, but his application didn't get all messed up like this. She didn't know any better than to wait for the DAC to call the BOR since that was what happened before. They received no counsel from the unit or the district on how to proceed with this set of issues, so hey just waited and called every so often to see that was to happen. The DAC never mentioned any appeals being necessary.

From the 2008 printing of the ACP&P I see under Item 4 on page 31. "The application should be signed by the unit leader at the proper place. The unit

committee reviews and approves the record of the Eagle candidate before the application is submitted to the local council. If aunit leader or unit committee fails to sign or otherwise approve an application, the Eagle candidate may still be granted a board of review. The failure of a unit leader

or unit committee to sign an application may be considered by the board of review in determining the qualification of the Eagle candidate."

Based on this it would seem reasonable to send the application on to council for processing by the to be convened BOR. The troop is extremely small and he was doing this right before he turned 18, so trying to get the troop committee to rule on this would have most likely been in-effectual. The council didn't loose the paperwork and it is still in process. I'm just trying to figure out what this meeting would be about. The mom has a call into the DE to try and figure out what is going on. The district person appears to have sat on this application for all this time, since I had asked him about it before the year (2008) ended.

Hello all,

When a scout from another troop approached his SM about signing his Eagle application, the SM refused citing some issues with attendance at meetings and general participation in troop activities (I believe). (He was not told of these issues while he was finishing up his requirements, including his project and just suprised by it all when the SM refused to sign the application.) The CC also would not sign it so as not to counter the SM since he (the CC) still had a son in the troop. The family asked my advice on what to do with the application and I advised them to just send it on to council without the signatures. This was back in October. Since then they have tried to contact the District Advancement Chair to schedule his BOR. This kept getting put off and now he has been told to go to some meeting (in another district) where they would discuss his application. This is not his BOR. Also, now, due to the length of time since his application he is faced with having to appeal anything that needs to happen since he is passed the 180 time limit for local processing.

My basic question is, what is the proper process to follow when you have an Eagle application without signatures? My understanding was that it should be sent to council and then a BOR would be called and they would rule on the application as it stood.

Thanks for any help/advice on this.

At the committee meeting where the issue was brought up, only the 'normal' committee members were present. Most of the past summer camp adult leaders were at that meeting.

We did not survey the entire adult population of the troop for addtional adults since we had two registered adult leaders who were available and willing to attend.

The question was, simply, are there any BSA restrictions (not local customs) that forbid the two adults on a campout from being as husband and wife pair. The answer to the original quesiton is NO. It is OK for the two adults to be a husband and wife team. This has been confirmed with our council executive.

As it turns out, we will have a third adult (the ASM of the troop) along with the husband and wife team this year.

The parent bringing up the original question, did not volunteer to go on this trip and that was probably due to their involvement in other scouting activities the same week.

And there are some other adults who will pop out to camp for a day or night during the week, but we were trying to get the main adult leadership covered and just had to resolve this technicality.

I hope that this explanation satisfies Marge's request.

One member of the husband/wife team was at the committee meeting.

The scout executive was asked a simple question regarding policy of a husband and wife being the only two leaders and responded accordingly.

The complaining parent spoke quite candidly.

Again, the original question is simply - is there a BSA policy that forbids a husband and wife team from being the only leaders at a BSA summer camp. Answer: No.

Good point. The only thing that seems to make sense out of all this is perhaps a restriction that parent two-deep is fine for events like summer camp and would not be allowed for events like a backpacking trip or high adventure trips due to issues like one of their children having an emergency or such.

But, you can't go wrong with just following the BSA rules and getting them clarified as needed when someone challenges a situation - which is what happened here.

As it turns out we now have the following information available. Our CC contacted our council executive and has the following rules clarification via e-mail:

1. The husband and wife team DOES constitute the requirements for two-deep leadership.

2. A 'family' may camp at BSA summer camp as long as ALL of the members of the family are registered members of the BSA.

The complaining parent will be informed of the response from the scout executive for them to process as they see fit.

The troop committee will probably discuss this issue in more depth over the next few months and decide if a troop policy covering this situation is warranted; i.e., when would troop not want a parental team being the only adult leaders, etc.

One additional adult stepped up to come out for the week, so in this case the problem has been mitigated.

Other parents do come out for a day or evening at a time, but we generally try to cover the whole week with the same leaders if possible.

For this particular family going to camp this year it was the only time that this would happen. The old son is 17 and it will be his last year as a scout member, next year he would in the adult category. The youngest scout will be out for his first year. So the parents thought that it would be a reasonable way to spend some time with their kids and the rest of the troop since the committed leadership was not available when they volunteered.

Thanks for all your responses and opinions!

The only sections of the Guide to Safe Scouting that deal with family camping are:

Section III

Family Camping

Family camping: an outdoor camping experience, other than resident camping, that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program elements in overnight settings with two or more family members, including at least one BSA member of that family. Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection guidelines apply.

Recreational family camping:

when Scouting families camp as a family unit outside of an organized program. It is a nonstructured camping experience, but is conducted within a Scouting framework on local council-owned or -managed property. Local councils may have family camping grounds available for rental at reasonable rates. Other resources may include equipment, information, and training.

I believe that these were the sections quoted and the point being made was that by having a family attend the summer camp that it was transforming the summer camp experience into a family camp. My reading of the above also indicates that the presence of more than one family member with at least one being a BSA member constitutes the 'family camp' part and so that any parents coming out with at least one scout would constitute a 'family camp'. Our troop's situation is a bit more involved in that the husband/wife team and the attending scouts constitute the entire family. Not sure that the distinction makes any difference, except to this person making the complaint.

Regarding the event of an emergency, one parent would have to deal with the emergency and the other stay with the unit as would happen with normal two-deep leadership. Since this is a summer camp situation, the problem may also be mitigated by being able to call on an additional non-unit leader to help until the emergency was resolved.

The complaint registered did not bring up any of the issues that have been discussed here about YP, but the main issue was turning summer camp into family camp.

That is what prompted my posting this to see what the real rules were and to understand if this kind of situation was expressly forbidden.

The issues raised here make it clear that it is hardly the ideal situation and should be avoided if at all possible.

Also, if this were not part of the organized council summer camp, but a separate troop excursion, the stakes would certainly be higher and a better arrangement should be made.

The main point of the parent complaining about the arrangement appeared to be centered on the fact that since this husband/wife team and their boys were going out that this somehow turned the summer camp experience into a family camp for the rest of the troop that would be out there.

YPL issues were not the centerpoint of the discussion, mostly this family camp aspect of the outing.

The couple is heterosexual, married to each other and active church members.

Does anyone know of any BSA policy, preferably National in nature, that would prohibit a married couple as being the only two adult leaders at a Boy Scout summer camp?

Due to leadership availability these were the only two adults (both registered leaders) that are available for the entire week.

One parent/committee member presented some information from the Guide to Safe Scouting that seemed to indicate that this was not allowed, but in reviewing the Guide, I cannot find the same indications.

Thanks for any hard facts that would support this position one way or the other.

Thanks to those who replied with your suggestions on how to determine this troop number. As it turns out, they were able to find out that it was Troop 113 and they were able to register in their council with that number. So there is now a new troop at Howe Military School! They will be having their first campout soon.

Does anyone remember the troop number from a unit that we believe used to be chartered at Howe Military School in Howe, IN?

They are starting a new troop there and would like to use the old troop number if we can find out what it was.

This troop will be in the Anthony Wayne Council.

There is already a troop in the Howe city area, but this troop would have been part of the school itself.

If anyone knows any information about any troop at Howe Military School, it will be greatly appreciated!

ghostdancer,

This is the kind of information I was looking for! Thank you.

We are still trying to get to the bottom of exactly how it was decided that our family should be told to leave! We have involved the Unit Commissioner and he is looking into it but hasn't gotten back to us. The CR is also in the loop and all she knew was that there might have been a meeting between the CC and the Unit Commissioner where this was decided, but the Unit Commissioner didn't say anything about this when I talked to him. So on it goes....

I see we have gone quite off the beaten path here, but a lot of good discussion is happening.

To clarify some of the facts I was dealing from was

1. The jackhammer exclusion came directly from the person at our council office that approves the tour permits as restricted to 18 and over. Period. If the leaders running at this Eagle project had checked this out beforehand they would have known better. They didn't and so by the rules of our council they put the boys in danger.

2. The uniform issue was brought up by us in a parent committee meeting, not a troop meeting so we thought it the correct forum for the discussion. Again, our point was that they were allowing the boys to make up a policy that would have allowed more than just full uniforms and troop shirts for events. They would have been able to wear rock groups and other labelled items to troop events. The previous uniform policy we had in effect was simple and appropriate. Why we even needed it to be addressed suprised us also.

As stated earlier, I was trying to find out how one properly asks a family to leave a unit. We were ordered from our unit with no meeting of the parties having an issue with us. The CR was not aware that this action was happening. And our boys were ordered to leave, even though the problem appeared to be at the adult level.

If anyone has more comments along these lines it would be great to hear them!

Thanks.

I recently got a clarification on the use of power tools by the scouts when helping with an Eagle project. According to our council office, the boy whose project is being done can use a power tool (within reason) after being properly instructed in its operation. He may then instruct other boys in the use of the tool and supervise their operation of it. This probably goes to the leadership part of the project.

Not all power tools are allowed of course, I was checking on the specific use of a jackhammer at a recent project and was informed (by council) that this type of equipment should only be used by those 18 and older.

I'll try to address some of the previous posts questions as best I can.

The dress code thing seemed (from our perspective) to come from out of the blue. Apparently, it had been discussed at the PLC and then just provided to the parents as way of information as to how they were changing it. It wasn't shown to us to approve or disapprove (as pointed out by the ASM), just as here it is and it's what the boys want. We (as parents) didn't know it was up to the boys to set their dress code. We seemed to think that we already had a policy in the troop (which we did) and that it agreed with BSA standards. (Up to this point the code was to wear uniform shirts to and from events and that class B shirts would be plain or nature related. Pretty simple and easy to follow.) What they came up with opened up the gates for much more latitude in what the boys could wear. We took some samples of what the new code seemed to allow and while the parents said "Oh, No, that's not what they meant!", that is what the new policy would allow. It went downhill from there. We tried to explain our point of view in a rational manner and perhaps we can get too involved in these things, but it seemed to warrant a discussion and pointing out what could happen.

We don't know why the boys decided to come up with a new dress code. It came up at a PLC and neither of us go to that. Our one son did, but he didn't recall much about it.

In the meantime since I started this thread, our one son has mailed our COR asking why HE and his brother were removed from the troop. They had not(and still haven't) been given any reasons about their behavior or attitudes that would cause this kind of action. We haven't heard back from her yet. (We copied the CC on this to see if he has anything to share.)

Also, just to indicate that we are not imagining things here there was a most interesting development this weekend. The ASM's son had a work session for his Eagle project on Saturday. It is being done in the downtown section of our city and we happened to pass by. When we did we saw that one of the boys (the son) was using a jackhammer! We later talked to another boy at the session and he said that they all got to use it! I checked with council and they did NOT file a tour permit and this kind of tool is not to be used by anyone under 18! The CC was at this event also. The SM (who told my son not to use any power tools at his project) was not there. So now this same pair of leaders is putting the boys in danger by allowing them to use improper equipment and if something had happened they wouldn't have had the insurance protection!

My one son (the one in town) will be attending his weekly scout meeting tonight at another local troop (he has some friends there and we know a lot of the adults there also). I talked to the SM of the this troop and he was fine with the transfer and was also aware of some of the issues with these two leaders from earlier associations. So, we will go on from here.

My main goal was to try to get an understanding of proper protocol in dealing with troop members who don't get along and you all were able to help us direct our information to what we hope will be the right people.

Thanks again!

Again, thanks for all the information.

To clarify an earlier question. My wife and I are simply adults in this troop. In the past we had been listed on the charter as members of committee, but probably not this year.

We do not hold formal leadership positions in the troop but are registered, trained leaders in our cub scout pack (I am CC and she is a DL).

As far as we can determine our major problem is that we kept bringing up issues where the troop leadership seemed to be straying for the BSA rules and regulations (like letting the boys make up their own dress code for events).

Since we had disagreements like this, the CC apparently decided he had enough and ordered the SM to tell us to transfer.

There was no meeting of the parents committee where this action was approved.

I talked to the COR and she was aware that there was a problem brewing but did not know that this was going to happen now.

So, we have a family of 5 where the two adults are parents in the troop and 2 boy scouts that were active in the troop (the other boy is a Bear) who have been forced to transfer.

I should have been clearer on these facts earlier, but seeing has how it just happened, I'm still quite frazzled.

My main goal now is to make the leadership of this group completely aware of the proper protocol for doing this kind of thing, since they seem determined to keep making up things as they go, and this whole incident just doesn't seem to have been handled properly.

(That was a slip of the fingers earlier, meant CC, not CM)

I have not been able to determine anything regarding asking my boys to leave the troop. There has not been any discussions regarding behavior, discipline or attitude that have been brought to our attention.

As far as I know, there was no general committee meeting held to decide this (I could be wrong since I know we wouldn't be invited if such a thing had happened) and I don't believe that anyone outside the troop was involved (COR or IH). I will call the COR tonight and see if she has heard anything.

I also don't know when the decision was made, just that the SM caught us last night before a normal troop meeting.

I have e-mailed our district executive to see what proper procedure would be in a case like this, but haven't heard anything back yet.

The information I've seen from all of you indicates that the COR should know at least.

I'll let you know what else I find out.

Thanks for all the information.

To clarify a few points:

The SM was ordered to talk to us. He did not have an issue with us or our boys. In fact we just had our Eagle COH for our older boy in this troop! The SM was sorry about having to do this and offered to continue to help our other boy in the troop with merit badges, Eagle project, etc.

My main point in posting this is to hopefully get some clarification of how this kind of thing should be done in a troop.

We are not aware of a troop committee meeting being held where this decision was made by the parents.

Our basic issues with the CM and the ASM are they say it is to be boy run, but when one of our boys makes a suggestion, it is ignored.

They recently let the boys come up with a dress code policy that is so lax, the boys could have worn rock group T-shirts to campouts.

We would try to bring up that there are national and local policies for these things, but are again rebuffed.

Again, I want to understand from others that have been in similar situations or heard of such as to the proper process that should have been followed for this kind of situation.

Again, thanks for any information.

I'm posting this to get a general reaction, particularily from Committee Chairs, Commissioners or other leaders.

Last night our Scoutmaster came to our home and informed us that he was ordered to tell us to transfer out of his troop.

The background is basically that my wife and I don't get along really well with the Committee Chair and one of the ASMs in this unit. We have had numerous disagreements on how the troop should function over the years. Recently we have offered to just step back and make sure that our boys are available for meetings, events and campouts.

This apparently was not good enough and we have been told to leave.

My basic question is, what would the normal chain of events be in a case like this where there is disagreement among the adults?

Is this proper to tell the whole family, especially the boys to leave?

Who should have given us this information? I don't think it should have been the SM, but the CC.

Shouldn't a discussion among the affected parties have been held first?

Wouldn't the Unit Commissioner have been involved?

Thanks for any reactions to this incident.

I contacted our Council Executive and he informed me that there is NO requirement for this information. Our District instructor was wrong. Thanks for all the information that you all posted. I probably should have contacted him first, but the district person was so sure of herself I figured it had to be correct!

At our Roundup training we were told that the National now REQUIRES that the boy's social security number be included on their applications and that the applications would not be accepted without this number. Even to the point of turning away a potential scout if they did not want to provide this information. It is supposed to be tied in with the Child Find program. Has anyone else heard this?