Hiromi

I'm happy to hear that is going so well for you guys.

What I think passes for cool in school I find offensive as well. And my scouts are a uniformed unit, and they are proud of their uniform (even if they are only pretending to be Scouts).

But like I said- the uniform in these parts is disappearing, and so are the units.

This must be a regional aberation.

I concede that I may be completely off the mark in my ideas about what scouting ought to do to imporve its image and program- if anything at all.

Pappy

Hi Bob,

I never said I wasnt following it. I said I loathed the over-emphasis paid on this aspect of outdoorsman ship. It gets to the point of being girlish. I understand it is just plain good manners to leave a place the way you left it, especially if it is public nature preserves

But boys need to get out into outdoor classrooms that allow them to change things around. Move the boulders in a stream to manipulate flow. Fell trees and fashion things from them. Build a primitive astronomical calendar. Build shelters. Make things that activate their imagination and sense of play. We are planning to build a fort soon.

That is all.

I think the environmentalists sometimes get a little carried away, and try to feed our boys the same pap in scouting that they force-feed them in the Public schools.

Men also mine, fish, hunt, fight battles, make art, build dams, power plants, and cities.

We need to do more to emphasize those manly arts - because the boys are not getting them in schools and more and more dads are getting less and less handy.

Pappy

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Hi Bob,

It is a Scout Camp FOS allow us to use.

Camp Jim Hill is an outdoor Scout camp. On the grounds we build (using pioneering methods) teepees, towers, bridges, and all sorts of structures. We have been given permission to eleimante all the Honey Locust and other undesirable trees and underbrush. (No small task, since every time you chop down a Honey Locust hundred of new saplings emerge in a shirt time- which are also handy for scout projects as well.)

We of course take special care to keep our site clean.

Pappy

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The Outdoor Code

As an American, I will do my best to -

Be clean in my outdoor manners

Be careful with fire

Be considerate in the outdoors, and

Be conservation minded.

We follow the rules when in Public and Private lands.

We practice high imapact scouting at our own Camp Site. We are in the business to teach our boys how to build and adapt the enviroment to human needs.

Leasure camping in "Parks" is a differnt skill set that we practice when camping in "Parks", and places other than our Base.

Pappy

Old Grey Eagle,

You are right of course.

I wasn't applying for a job as the CEO of BSA.

And no, of course I don't follow the BSA prescribed format to the letter.

Whenever I make a point about scouting I usually give pretty exhaustive anecdotes from my own experience or explanations of my logic.

But yes, I am pretty inexpereinced.

Pappy

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CNYScouter,

These links are loaded with ideas.

One fun activity we do that is cheap and requires teamwork is simply hide and seek (Or we call it search and evade). You can let the scouts have cell phones so they can cover a larger area, or have to rely on hand signals alone. You could make it a search and rescue and involve first aide s well.

ANother great one is geocaching and orienteering courses (with scavenger hunts).

You could involve in such a game code breaking- riddle solving, rope use - sort of like a miny on the spot Klondike. You could either make the course yourself- or have the ship design a course. (they woul dprobably learn more and have more fun).

I included the scenario to activites our unit did last year in my thread "All THings Pappy". It is the third Post.

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=181186&p=1

Have fun- I wish I had a Ship!

Pappy

Here are the other coll links.

http://www.wilderdom.com/games/InitiativeGames.html

http://www.totaladventures.com/adventures/subgrouplist.php?id=3&sub=4

http://www.businessfundamentals.com/TeamBuilding.htm

http://www.dsa.csupomona.edu/osl/studentmanual/team.asp

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Fire Cat,

You're getting a little hysterical.

We cut those trees and shrubs down to create a nice view - for humans.

I really don't know if anyone understands what the "overall benefit of the environment" is. That smacks of arrogance to me as well.

The environment is indifferent. It only acts opportunistically.

The idea of synergetic harmonious eco-systems is a fairy-tale designed to make man seem out-group from nature.

Killing animals is not unethical or ethical. It is a benign act.

Deriving pleasure from the pain and suffering of another creature is truly disturbing-- this much I would agree.

But I think we have gotten off topic.

The role of man is to create a Heaven on Earth. He is trying to perfect his conduct and to perfect his earthly condition.

Scouting was designed to help boys by getting them out in the wilderness so they might experience living on their wits and with teamwork.

If we treat nature as a park, and something to visit, we are not being fully human. Man should feel at home in nature, and not as a guest. He should feel unashamed to think of her as something to shape, form, manipulate, extract from, utilize, and exploit for the betterment of Mankind.

This is why I suggested that scouting is not the same for everyone. I see scouting as a means of introducing boys to their manly relationship with nature.

Deride this all you want. The civilization that you call home was made by such people.

Pappy

Trevorum,

"Shuddering to think" is a symptom of girly-man-ness.

As well as saying things like - "That is really scary".

There is a cure for this condition.

A. Read the Holy Bible. (Any Edition will do)

B. Watch lots of Westerns, especially John Wayne and Clint Eastwood films.

C. Shoot an animal (or use your bear hands) and watch it die.

D. Break a horse.

E. Read Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged.

F. Read Aristotle

G. Hang out with Real Men.

H. Every time you look at something that you couldnt have come up with yourself, have the humility to admit that there are legions of really smart people who make our life as easy as it is because of their ability to master the environment and get from rock and tree and water the medicines, the papers, the machines, the fragrances, the foods, and everything else that makes us comfortable enough to spend our time debating this trivia instead of huddling in the corner of some cave shuddering in our own waste.

Pappy

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This report is very informative.

Strategic Plan Research Reaching the Next Multicultural Generation Reaching Generation X and Millennial Parents

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.scouting.org/media/research/02-1058.pdf

In 2006 the Boy Scouts of America introduced the new 20062010 National Strategic Plan to build Scoutings strength as it moves into its next century. As a part of this plan, 2006 was named the Year of Research so that we, as an organization, can better understand how to reach youth and parents, and provide a quality Scouting experience to all youth.(This message has been edited by Pappy)

The death of Canadian scouting

Hans Zeiger

August 12, 2004

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/zeiger/040812

CALICO, I STAND CORRECTED.

Question - I have been told that there are more trees today in the

United States of America than there were when the Pilgrims landed at

Plymouth Rock. Is this true? If so, why?

Rather, the forests have been recovering from clearing after the arrival of Europeans.

http://realm.umd.edu/chesapeake.shtml

Anthony R. Brach, Ph.D.

==========================================================

I don't know how this could be determined, since there is no real way of knowing exactly what forests looked like at any given time that far back in history. Its likely that there are more trees in some places, like on the great plains, where they have been widely planted around towns and home sites; on the other hand much of what was forested land in the eastern U.S. has been converted to agriculture and urban. Certainly there are more trees now than in 1900, at the end of the great timber baron era of deforestation, and especially since the 1930's depression years much marginal farmland has

been turned back to forest - but much of that was probably forested

originally anyway so its hard to say whether there has been any net gain.And what exactly is meant by "more trees?" If you really mean the total number of individual trees then this is probably a true statement since virgin forests had relatively few large trees per acre, and have been replaced by young forests with more but smaller trees per acre. But if you mean total forested land I think it is a very debatable proposition.

J. Elliott

In your debate, it would be a good tactic to ask your father where he got his information and investigate his sources. This is a rather tricky question. The first website cited addresses your question and makes a very important point that if there are more trees today it would only be because there are much younger forests and younger, smaller trees that take up less space than the very large trees in virgin forests of Colonial times. Therefore, it is important what you consider a tree, a small seedling or sapling or a fairly large mature plant. Large numbers of tree seeds sprout each year in unforested

areas but very few of them develop into mature trees. For example, millions of tree seedlings sprout each year in mowed areas such as lawns but they are all cut down by the mowing. I don't think it would be fair to count them as trees.

In Colonial times relatively fewer tree seedlings sprouted in virgin forests because it was too shady. Would it also really be fair to count the tens-of-millions of live, but small, Christmas trees grown and harvested each year as trees?

Your father's idea that technology allows us to "better preserve trees" is correct in some ways but it applies more to landscape trees rather than forest trees. Landscape trees can grow to much greater ages with proper disease and pest control methods. More rapidly growing forest tree varieties actually mean the lifespan of the trees is shorter because they are logged more often. Since Colonial times, the USA has basically lost two major forest tree species, the

American chestnut and American elm, both nearly wiped out by imported diseases.

Before Columbus arrived in North America, there was basically one continuous forest in the Eastern United States west to beyond the Mississippi River. It was said that a squirrel could go branch to branch from the east coast to the Mississippi River without touching the ground. A biome map would be the same now as in Colonial times because it is based on climate. A biome map shows that half or more of the USA area consists of forest biomes, even though most of the

trees have been cut down in many of those forest biomes. Notice that second behind forests in area are grasslands in the Central USA and third in area is desert in the Southwest.

Today, only remnants of the great eastern USA forests remain. Nonforested areas today include farm fields, buildings, home lawns, roads, golf courses, athletic fields, parking lots, cemetaries, etc. There has also been substantial deforestation in the western United States since Colonial times. Therefore, my educated guess it that there are fewer trees in the United States today than in Colonial times assuming that seedlings and small saplings are not included.

Maybe a more better way to put it is that there is definitely much less forested area today than in Colonial times.

The central USA, which was originally grassland or prairie, has gained trees since Colonial times but not enough to offset the losses in the other parts of the USA. The founder of Arbor Day, Julius Sterling Morton, lived in Nebraska, a prairie state. He promoted tree planting on the treeless plains. The first Arbor Day in 1872 was celebrated by planting one million trees in Nebraska.

There have been gains in tree numbers in desert biomes, such as Arizona and Nevada, where people have planted trees in irrigated landscapes in homes and cities. However, trees have been planted in limited areas so it is still not enough to offset the losses in forest biomes.

Fire Cat,

This Day and Age indeed.

There are more trees in North America than anytime in Geologic history. Cutting down forests, preserving forests, burning forests, are all benign acts. Nature is incompletely indifferent.

If we didn't cut down the forests of Europe we never would have built her cities, warmed her homes, and sailed the seas and tilled her soil. Forests grow back- sometimes with a vengeance.

Environmentalism has become to many a religion, except in that faith man is not created in the image of God but is instead painted as a devil and a destroyer. He is an animal run amuck.

Save your outrage for the next rally Firecat- you'll get no sympathy from me.

I see a forest primarily as something to cut and fashion and explore and shape and make suitable for human use. I see a mountain as something to cut into for its stone, mine for its minerals and paint for its beauty.

The greatest lie ever perpetrated on our youth was the myth of the pristine environment. It never existed. It is not a scientifically verifiable state of existence. Nature is aggressive, opportunistic, and does not heed mans whims or emotions.

Last fall my scouts thinned a forest to create a view of a County Wood Covered Bridge. We called it Operation Vista. We chopped down dozens of mature trees and shrubs and in doing so created one of the most majestic vistas in our part of Illinois. It was on county land, and a forester helped us locate the desirable and undesirable trees and shrubs.

We kept a large blaze going for 48 hours.

My scouts felt very good about what they did. Their dads had some very quality time with their sons. It was very manly very rugged, and very grueling work.

You ought to see their faces when they fell their first 50 foot tall honey locust!

They love their scout axes because it symbolizes their power to change their environment and to make something of use from nature. You folks are quick to criticize the moralizing of Christian faith, but get all high and mighty about cutting down trees.

That is an obscene inversion of values.

I am humancentric in both my outlook on life and in scouting. And I think it is the correct perspective in forming boys into men. We should not be ashamed of desiring to change the environment to suit our ends.

Pappy

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"Pollution is bad sure- we get that.

Our National Parks are not for human development - get that too."

Scoutingagain,

If you read my post I actually said that my scouts learn not to pollute and to observe no trace in public parks and such. But the emphasis on No Trace should never supersede our perspective on man's rightful relationship with his environment- which is that we are here to build, create, nurture, plant, hunt, and form. Over-emphasis on keeping nature pristine is really wrong-headed and narrow.

I am concerned that we are emasculating our boys by not emphasizing their expression of power and intellegence in the natural environment.

Pappy

Fair enough Lisa,

I've got nothing else to say about it.

Pappy

That may be ripe for another thread Old GRey Eagle.

But what we conserve seems to be a little more important than teaching boys to keep their paws off Mother Nature.

I am firmly in the camp that says slashing and burning, cutting and building, is a lot more about conserving the manly arts and man's proper relationship with his environment rather than doing our darndest to keep the TV Indian from crying.

Pollution is bad sure- we get that.

Our National Parks are not for human development - get that too.

But I want my boys to see trees as things to harvest as well as to hug and plant and paint pictures of.

They should see nature as something that is there not to preserve alone- but to manipulate- form, mold, and use to create things that they imagine. The forest is a play ground, an art studio, a construction zone, a home, a hunting ground, an arena for the game of scouting.

We come from pioneers, frontiersman.

That is a lot more present in the pioneering skills of BP scouting than the GREEN PC policies of No Trace.

I personally loathe No Trace because I believe boys should be taught to look at the world as a place in which they feel at home in, not always as visitors that should clean up after themselves.

I want my boys to chop trees down and build things. I want them to blaze trails, build dams, construct forts, make bows and arrows, trap game, and learn that it is more than OK to make their mark.

Are we making tourists or are we making Men?

Pappy

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Bob,

Scouting has been on a steady downward decline in our Council, and especially in our district for twenty years. I am a new unit. 5 years. But since my unit was formed two packs has dissolved and troop numbers have plummeted.

Bob, you are definitely a company man. You have made that abundantly clear.

It is never the BSA's fault in your eyes.

So fine. Maybe you're right.

But I think BSA can be improved as a business model to create bigger market share of youth programming in this nation.

You think it is a problem with training adult volunteers. I have read these arguments of yours on many other threads.

I think BSA sends out a confusing Brand with its venturing program. I think it comes off being very ad hoc. And I think it does not communicate to youth very well at all.

Pappy

As I stated.

I am not as confident in the BSA status quos as many of you are.

I think that scouting is an outdoors movement.

I think that ethics and morals are paramount- but that Scouting,as I have seen it practiced- usually only pays a little lip service to that portion of its program, especially where the Boy Scout age youth are concerned. So lets say we will leave it to the CO- and we will support them in the way that they ask to be supported.

We make the program more beefed up on those skills that the youth are demanding, and lighten up on the paperwork and dry training we put the adult volunteers through.

We need to sell this thing- and I'll tell you fellas- here on the ground in central Illinois- it is a really hard sell.

THose that want trational by the book BSA can still keep it. But open up the arena to all comers.

Pappy

Not a set up.

I have not contradicted myself. I am all for a very conservative idea of scouting, as you all well know.

But I am not going to say that what I want for my unit is what anybody should want or have. I am specifically addressing what would be a better model for the National Organization as it moves forward. I think the monolithic scouting movement is having many pangs, and is in need of a reorganization to meet the needs of a very diverse population.

Getting CO's to adopt their own style of scouting, and see SCOUTING AMERICA as the best resource, with the best customer service, the best training facilities and talent on hand, with the best facilities, is I think a very attractive model.

A patrol could use the facilities of its council to train them in mountain climbing, rifleman ship, scuba diving, sailing, and whatever else they want to excel at. No merit badges or Rank Advancements necessarily -Just groups of kids using SCOUTING AMERICA to get safe and educated access to the outdoors.

Pappy

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OLD GREY EAGLE,

I am only suggesting that we think about letting the customer decide what values program, if any, they want in their scouting package. If a CO wants to do a traditional model- well we have that model in ready supply, don't we. If it is a venture model- we have that to. I am saying- drop all the categories and allow the customer to customize their own unit, and use SCOUTING AMERICA as an organization to aide them in outdoor training, organization, etc.

I am saying the customers should have a choice, otherwise they will go away.

If we are best at Scout craft, outdoor adventure, and the like, then we should focus on that.

I think BSA has a vision problem because they are stuck on internal contradictions about what is scouting, what are its core values, how these should be administered, etc. I say -cut that sea anchor, and let us right our ship and sail on as a service provider that can accommodate most comers.

Pappy

Bob,

The model I propose would better serve the greater cause of spreading Scouting and scoutcraft to a wider and more diverse population. It would also keep National vital and focused on Scoutcraft- training - and outdoor adventure. It would help BSA by giving it a business model that would attract more talent, youth, and positive attention.

Those that hold that the only problem with BSA as it stands is that people just don't get BSA and people just arent trained enough to do BSA right- they will be opposed to such an idea- because in their mind it is not BSA that needs fixing but its volunteers.

Pappy

BSA- as SCOUTING AMERICA: Would offer traditional Boy Scouting only as an option from a broad menu of options and services.

But yes, the Scout Oath and The Scout Law would no longer be an integral part of Scouting America as an organization, but perhaps something that it might suggest but not mandate.

It would be left to the CO to design the Values portion of their youth program.

Let Religious and other community organizations run the values portion of Youth development and let Scouting provide Scouting and Scout Craft.

It is a democratization model. And it would be an interesting end run around the ACLU logger head we currently face.

Pappy

This was spun from another thread. BSA SCHISM RED STATE SCOUTS/BLUE STATE SCOUTS

SCOUTING AMERICA

I propose a new title for BSA: SCOUTING AMERICA

I propose we brand a new message for SCOUTING AMERICA that scouting is for everybody, wherever they find themselves in life, spiritually, economically, politically, culturally.

I propose we make the values portion of scouting, along with the uniform an option and not a mandated portion of the program but an option to be creatively derived from the CO using the SCOUTING AMERICA services.

We open up the option for all sexes but neither mandate coed nor single sex units.

Scouting Americas mission is to make Scouting and Scout craft available to American families, youth, and communities,

Allow professional scouters who specialize in Cope training or Pioneering skills to focus on that and forget about the values part of scouting. Let the COs and their affiliations work on designing a values program if they want one.

BSA should drop the pretense and get out of the values game at National- and have National be a service provider of Scouting Out Door Adventure and Training for Boy Scouting and other groups interested in scouting skills and outdoor adventure and adventure training.

SCOUTING AMERICA would change the business model to a service provider with many diverse cliental. Maybe lose the uniform as well and allow COs to have their own uniforms that they think will reflect their units particular values. Maybe some scouters will have kilts and bagpipes at a jamboree, another may have the camouflage BDUs, another might go with a polo shirt and khakis whatever.

Allow COs and National affiliations of COs to organize Values Specific Scouting organizations that are like states within a Federal BSA system. I would think it would be interesting on a number of fronts to see jamborees where Wiccan Scouts, Catholic Scouts, Baptist Scouts, Jewish Scouts, Atheist Scouts, BP scouts, Rangers, Venture Units, all celebrated scouting and at the same time got a chance to see each other as a reflection of the values that they and their CO and families hold dear. I think esprit de corps would increase. Competition and a sharing of ideas and values would take place.

If it is true that BSA already would allow CO's to create their own values program tailor suited to their own unique BSA-affiliated program, then maybe BSA should market this aspect of itself to these organizations by emphaisizing a brand that says loud and clear-

WE ARE HERE FOR YOU_ WHOEVER YOU MAY BE!

An Ad line might go something like this:

"Let us help you make your Youth Program something your youth will absolutely love. We offer high adventure- adult and youth training, safe access to the great outdoors, and a 100 year tradition helping make youth into Americas most productive adults."

As I said- the service model I think is the best model for BSA National. It is already best tooled for it. It can train scouters to provide scouting a wide variety of classic scouting skills, training both adults and youth.

The point is- Scouting is good - Spreading the game of Scouting and by implication the lessons it teaches is our aim. Allow the costumer to take from scouting what they value. Give the customer a wide berth and a big menu.

Let's do what we do best, and leave the rest to the customer.

Pappy

As I have stated before, I am for a broader scouting program that will attract and keep more boys. I think that scouting is a force for good in our culture, and it should be allowed to grow in the different soils of America. You can be a scout and look like a dough boy, or a Hessian, Indian Jones, or Captain Kirk, or a Jedi warrior, a Golfer, the Mounties, or a Marine.

Pappy

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You get no arguments out of me there Scouting Again.

If it is true that BSA already would allow CO's to create their own values program tailor suited to their own unique BSA-affiliated program, then maybe BSA should market this aspect of itself to these organizations.

An Ad line might go something like this:

"Let us help you make your Youth Program something your youth will absolutely love. We offer high adventure- adult and youth training, safe access to the great outdoors, and a 100 year tradition helping make youth into Americas most productive adults."

As I said- the service model I think is the best model for BSA National. It is already best tooled for it. It can train scouters to provide scouting a wide variety of classic scouting skills, training both adults and youth.

The point is- Scouting is good - Spreading the game of Scouting and by implication the lessons it teaches is our aim. Allow the costumer to take from scouting what they value. Give the customer a wide berth and a big menu.

Let's do what we do best, and leave the rest to the customer.

Pappy

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le Voyageur,

You have the disagreeable habit, le Voyaguer, shared by many on this forum, Gold Winger included, of picking one line of someones post and making a larger critical point you know darned well is neither in context nor the original intent of the poster, and which often times is only meant to trivialize and ridicule the posters position.

I am making a sincere attempt at communicating ideas and trying to keep this out of the realm of conjecturing about the motives of the individual posters. If you have a comment to make about my greater intentions, do a better job of looking at what I have actually written instead of trying to paint me as something I am not.

I wasnt arguing for an exclusively monolithic Christian-exclusive BSA.

Your views of religion as stated in the previous post seem to be very widely shared by the other contributors on this site. This goes to my greater point that a secular organization is not benign, but it becomes over time anti-clerical; as we have seen in public schools and Universities).

I meet many scouters who harbor very anti-religious views, yet do their best to keep this on the down low so as not to upset any of the sectarian natives in their scout units.

I say get it all out in the open. Allow professional scouters who specialize in Cope training or Pioneering skills to focus on that and forget about the values part of scouting. Let the COs and their affiliations work on designing a values program if they want one.

I was only suggesting that maybe BSA drop the pretense and get out of the values game at National- and have National simply serve as a service provider of Scouting Out Door Adventure and Training for Boy Scouting and other groups interested in scouting skills and outdoor adventure and adventure training. Change the business model to a service provider with many diverse cliental. Maybe lose the uniform as well and allow COs to have their own uniforms that they think will reflect their units particular values. Maybe some scouters will have kilts and bagpipes at a jamboree, another may have the camouflage BDUs, another might go with a polo shirt and khakis whatever.

Allow COs and National affiliations of COs to organize Values Specific Scouting organizations that are like states within a Federal BSA system. I would think it would be interesting on a number of fronts to see jamborees where Wikan Scouts, Catholic Scouts, Baptist Scouts, Jewish Scouts, Atheist Scouts, BP scouts, Rangers, Venture Units, all celebrated scouting and at the same time got a chance to see each other as a reflection of the values that they and their CO and families hold dear. I think esprit de corps would increase. Competition and a sharing of ideas and values would take place.

As I have stated before, I am for a broader scouting program that will attract and keep more boys. I think that scouting is a force for good in our culture, and it should be allowed to grow in the different soils of America. You can be a scout and look like a dough boy, or a Hessian, or a Jedi warrior, a Golfer, the Mounties, or a Marine.

Pappy

le Voyageur,

Don't be too sure that knowing what time it is is any guarantee of knowing that the current fashion is good, true, or beautiful. I think personally that the people who believe that there is a status quos that we must adapt to to be normal and with the times are in real danger of giving up what is truly timeless and worthwhile.

One of the benefits of being Christian is that the bible guides us in these matters, and cautions us to be weary of the world, especially when it concerns our children.

We have devolved democracy down into adolescent and pre-teens for the past 30 years and the result has been power being drained from the parents, and especially the father. We have been seeing generations of uncouth and ill mannered lunk-heads because we have been giving up the reigns of parenting and schooling and spiritually forming our children.

Secularizing scouting is not a good idea for our culture. But may be a better business model to perpetuate BSA.

I was serious when I wrote that if BSA wants to expand, maybe they should seriously consider getting out of the values business and be the Youth outdoor adventure organization in America.

Would I prefer a Catholic centered scouting organization for me? Sure. But I could imagine a Jewish Scouting Organization, an Islamic Scouting Organization, LDS, Jehovah Witness, Evangelical Christian, an Ecumenical Scouting Organization, An Atheist Scouting Organization, a Wikan Scouting Organization, and a Secular Scouting organization, etc. Whats wrong with scouting being tailor fitted for the CO or even a Nation-wide affiliation of COs? If it increased the scouting movement by satisfying the particular moral and ethical desires of target groups, whos harmed?

I think across the board secularization becomes synonymous with anti-clericalism and entrenched atheism as we see prevalent in the Universities and Public Schools.

BSA National should focus on what it should be best at, which it seems to me is outdoor adventure and its requisite skills. If it allowed COs and Affiliations of COs to design their own BSA-variation how would this be a bad thing?

Pappy