Hiromi

http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/3484376.html

Why There is a Culture War

By John Fonte

Gramsci and Tocqueville in America

"While economic Marxism appears to be dead, the Hegelian variety articulated by Gramsci and others has not only survived the fall of the Berlin Wall, but also gone on to challenge the American republic at the level of its most cherished ideas. For more than two centuries America has been an "exceptional" nation, one whose restless entrepreneurial dynamism has been tempered by patriotism and a strong religious-cultural core. The ultimate triumph of Gramscianism would mean the end of this very "exceptionalism." America would at last become Europeanized: statist, thoroughly secular, post-patriotic, and concerned with group hierarchies and group rights in which the idea of equality before the law as traditionally understood by Americans would finally be abandoned. Beneath the surface of our seemingly placid times, the ideological, political, and historical stakes are enormous."

[Returned to sender. Please start or spin off a new topic] (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Hello fellow law-abiders,

I have personally been involved in an attempt by the ACLU in league with the Anti-defamation league to get the Chicago Public Schools to either remove or change a mural I had painted in a school in Humboldt Park.

The tactics were based on fear and intimidation in the form of letters which pointed out what they considered disturbing violations of church state separation clauses. These letters usually do enough to scare an entity into taking some action to appease the ACLU from filing a suit- but in my case- the Chicago Public School Board legal department found that the murals I painted, even though they showed depictions of people who could be religious figures, (a portrayal of a man washing the feet of other men, a man on a mountain looking to heaven with tablets, and a Puerto Rican man with an open bible on his desk) they felt that none these images were advocating religious belief.

In fact, this issue only came to the attention of the ACLU and the ADL becasue of an irate teacher who thought she could get back at the principal who had been the patron of the mural.

Some of you say that the ACLU is some sort of friendly service provider, insuring that we have a better society for all. This is hogwash in my experience (anecdotal as it is). I have found them to be a mean and cynical lot, in cahoots with political activists. It is a documented fact that the ACLU's founding members can be traced back to the communist party.

They are scaring the public schools into creating blanket bans on all religious groups by these friendly letters. That is how they did it here in my town. The excuse was made that some Jehovah's witnesses wanted to set up shop in the school, so to be fair, they said the school was closed off to all religious organizations with their implicit discriminatory policies. But the deeper truth is Boy Scouting is seen to be at war with liberalism, i.e. Homosexuality. And the liberal folks around here are walking in lock step to fight the scouts- even if they have to hide behind legal barricades.

Pappy

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Packsaddle,

There is a big difference between perversion of the social order and a perversion on the natural order.

I didn't say it was unnatural for an adult man to fancy young girls, I said it was a troubling road - it only leads to criminality and sin. Young girls are off limits to you Packsaddle- and you know it. But yes- it is perfectly natural.

I agree with you that urges of our youth don't really change that much - but we agree to a social contract and we also modify our tastes to more socially appropriate groups of females.

Morally straight and our scout law have nothing to do with your evolutionary sized libido either. Are you saying that the oath and law are idiotic as well? Our Oath and law serve as social correctives to that instinct you refer to. Nature would have us rape, plunder, and murder as well.

Pappy

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Scoutmamma,

Perversion is perversion. Most adult heterosexual males know that when they find themselves aroused by the gyrations of early or even preteen cheerleaders that they are going down a path that is wrong. He knows that his best course is to turn away and get the thought out of his head and to avoid those things that are temptations.

The idea of a healthy virulent heterosexual man being pu in charge of a traveling cheerleading squad (to my thinking) is just looking for trouble. A heterosexual man can be lead down this troubling path if it is made easy enough for him and his inner character is not formed enough.

Why wouldn't this be the case for a homosexual man? Surely everyone who knows gay men knows that they are as vain and superfiscial as the rest of us. They are looking for young fit men. The homosexual men I have met over the years typically preferred young high school aged boys. Young sailors were especially popular trolling grounds.

I think in this matter we should be magnanimous to both heterosexual and homosexual perverts, and say that kids are off limits.

But don't make up some cock and bull story that homosexuals, unlike heterosexuals, somehow lose their appetite for boys, but somehow heterosexuals switch gender preferences when the subject goes below a certain age. This may be a rear breed of perversion, but the broad norm would show that homosexuals and heterosexuals need to both know when to look away - and should not be put into situations that would antagonize their worst angels.

Pappy

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Visual arts - mostly portraiture, murals, and easel paintings. Pretty traditional style. I also Homeschool my children and teach Latin to Homeschoolers in our area.

Pappy

Fscouter- Merlyn is a culture warrior, and he understands that there is a battle on. He is fighting it. Pretending that what he is doing is not a kind of warfare is dangerous. The ACLU has been effective in further damaging an already crippled scouting program in our area. THey helped get rid of United Way funding and scared the Public schools into not allowing scouters into the buildings. They are trying to wear us down. It is a classic battle strategy that dates at back to the Romans. The best way to fight them is to name them and show them for what they are.

The ACLU's shocking legacy

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45959

"One of the great myths of the 20th ? and now 21st ? century is the belief that the American Civil Liberties Union was an organization that had a noble beginning, but somehow strayed off course. That myth is untrue. The ACLU set a course to destroy America ? her freedom and her values ? right from the start."

Alan Sears, a former federal prosecutor in the Reagan administration, is president and CEO of the Alliance Defense Fund, America's largest legal alliance defending religious liberty through strategy, training, funding and litigation. He is co-author with Craig Osten of the new book "The ACLU vs. America: Exposing the Agenda to Redefine Moral Values."

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Way to twist Nessmuk's ideas there Lisabob.

You know- the reason so many conflagrations occurred has been because of a failure of the public imagination and a lack of vigilance by the nation's intellectual elites and moral lights to speak up and call out evil in their time. But alas, that is a lesson of a discipline with teeth to it- History.

Ask a Jew Lisa bob about 1930s America's and Europe's disgusting refusal to believe that Hitler was anything but a monster when all the evidence pointed to it.

Many of the professors in the academies, especially in the softer sciences, are motivated by revolution and turning over what they perceive as the major impediments to progress- Such as The American Middle Class Bourgeoisies Consumerist Bible Believing Boy Scout Raising Americans.

I have seen it first hand at a small liberal arts college, a technical aviation school in the Southwest, and then at a large Chicago University. Amongst the academic elites the rabidity of loathing for what most Americans would see as wholesomeness and good values is palpable.

The schools of sociology and anthropology and political science, environmental and climate sciences, and especially the schools of education are brimming with Hard Left faculty whose sites are on proselytizing their brand of revolution to the kids just trying to muddle through with a teaching certificate. It is criminal and it goes on with impudence.

The results are a cynicism bread of moral relativism. Idealism is seen as a trait of the stupid or at best naive.

Do you teach at a very Christian University? Because your apparent blindness to this very real conspiracy is astonishing.

And yes LisaBob, I would also enjoy asking those same sailors, soldiers, aviators, and marines what their thoughts might be about radical professors teaching American students that the real problem with the world are capitalist imperialist powers like America. I bet they could share with you a few choice Government Issue expletives.

Pappy

(non sense attack on Merlyn, we attempt to reach a higher plane OGE) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

FireKat,

I awoke this happy morning to find myself agreeing with you on something.

I think you are correct in your assessment of the realpolitik of the situation and its cynical realities. In schools where they have spent at least 50 years wiping clean religion form the text-books, the teacher training, and even the ideology of teaching and learning- its replacement is not some mild non-sectarian benign learning experience- but instead an indoctrination staging ground for the replacement religions and their affiliated lobby and activist bases-

Environmentalism

Secular Humanism

Multiculturalism

Feminism

Socialism

Transgenderism

Sexual enlightenmentism

Earth-Motherism

Athleticism

And the associated Sadism and natural social orders of cliques and hazing that comes with putting children into an environment where they overwhelm the parent population about 15 to 25 to one.

On the basis of pure logic, FireKAt, you would think that the argument wouldn't stand.

I.E. that by eliminating the power for a state agency to make law respecting the establishment of religion there would then by that lack of a law be an opportunity to form the establishment of a religion. But you rightly point out, FireKAt, the natural state of humanity- we are endowed with our creator with a natural condition to create a deity (call it what you will, it is treated with the reverence and paid the deference of a God) and the inclination to worship it and derive our authority from it. If this authority is not given to us, we will take it. If it is denied us, we will make a new one.

I worked in public education for nearly a decade. I knew that most of my peers were not practicing a faith. And yet, they believed in the experiment of public education as an article of faith. Their belief in public schooling was similar to religious belief. Like a faith, they took in stride the many glaring contradictions and empirical evidence that did not mesh with their working assumptions and tenets of the inherent goodness and rightness of the cause of public schooling for all. This is faith.

The faith in or belief in Public education, or in a socialist or egalitarian paradise, in a political cause, or in any type of revolution- does rise in many respects to meet the test of religiosity. (Including in many respects the Boy Scouts of America).

Merlin will surely point out to you that you would never be able to allocate public moneys equally and or fairly to all religious groups. But if you simply argued that most groups have at their center a statement of belief that by its nature will embrace a certain willing membership of those same shared values and beliefs, and by its very inclusive nature also exclude those members of our society that don't share those beliefs you can demonstrate the legality of public moneys going into any group of citizens if they meet the goals of those public moneys. (Including a soccer camp for inner city Latinos).

I see absolutely no difference between letting Rotary international (Service before self), The Salvation Army, The Daughters of the American Revolution, Catholic Charities, the Red Crescent, and the Boy Scouts of America run a soccer camp with public funds or hold meetings in Public facilities.

Many of the people like Merlin (but not perhaps Merlin Himslef) have a modus operandi which is not for fairness, but for the establishment of an anti-clerical state. The French Revolution is the first and best historical example of the results of this type of revolution. The French were not to be satisfied until their atheism established a state mechanism to punish believers and reward members of the new faith in the State.

Youll find the same revolutionary elements tagging along or insinuating themselves into many of the well-intentioned movements spreading across America. A great example for this is the cause of Environmentalism. It has become a big tent movement for a potpourri of Revolutionary types from Anti- Capitalist-Corporate types to Anti-Christian Pagans to the general enemies of Consumerist Middle Class America and its requisite values of Patriotism, Belief in God, and its institutions like the Boy Scouts. While Environmentalism may seem non-sectarian and secular and politically neutral as a cause- it is none of these. It has the full range of diversity of a religious denomination from zealots to the luke warm. It has a tenet of beliefs like an established religion. It should be viewed as much as a religion as the example of Rotary and The Boy Scouts.

Thanks Again FireKat

Great Food for Thought!

Pappy

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FireKat said about Pappy:

He has..."A bit of buried anger toward strong, intelligent women maybe?"

My dearest FireKat, I give you a list of not only my favorite women but some of my favorite people. They are all women I listen to. They all love and champion strong men. They are all hot. They are all strong and intelligent, and they all could probably kick your rear: All qualities I admire and in a good woman.

My Wife

Colleen Carroll Campbell

Ann Coulter

Laura Ingraham

Peggy Noonan

Here is Peggy Noonan's take on the return of Men after 9-11

http://www.peggynoonan.com/article.php?article=71

The death of manliness

Hans Zeiger

October 6, 2006

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/zeiger/061006

Hello Scouters,

There have been many interesting replies to this thread. Some I have found have served my understanding of how to refine my own concept of what manhood is. Some of the comments revealed the sensitive nature of this idea or at least the terminology of manliness and manhood. I suppose I helped more than most to muck up the waters with my language of girly-man-ness and such. In as much as it detracted from a good argumentative thread, I am sorry.

To go back to answer Old Grey Eagles original question, when he asked me for clarification on what the manly arts are, I will give a very brief shot at it.

The sexism of terms can date back easily to Roman times when Feminine Nouns like Poeta, Agricola, and Nauta, where none-the-less to be used in a sentence as a male-verb, and have male adjective agreement. This exception to the highly structured Latin language was due to the fact that covention dictated that Poetry, Farming, and Sailing were seen as predominantly occupations held by men (Even though there were woman highly involved and proven in these fields).

I wasnt trying to bring up a sexist issue. I have a very soft spot in my heart for tomboys. And I have many boys in my unit who definitely tend to be interested in what might wrongly be considered to be less masculine directions. I personally love to cook and sew and read poetry and listen to Italian Bel Canto Opera (And I sob profusely when I listen to opera). I dont think for one second that this makes me less manly (though you guys are welcome to kid if you are so inclined).

I think boys and girls both need to be free from convention and the approbation of their meaner peers to grow towards their natural inclinations and to pursue the interests that takes their fancy. This can then possibly mature into a stronger calling and possible career or an interesting multi-faceted life.

What I meant, I suppose, by manly arts, was a substantial repertoire of skills required to replicate those elements of handicraft, technologies, modes of behavior and outlook, which can replicate civilization (and thus enable children to better appreciate the civilization that they are born into).

For an example that may not have been missed by Baden Powell, I would look to a British Ship of The Line. A Ship of the Line, if I am correct in remembering, was a ship that was given orders to pursue the will of the Royal Navy, often into areas that were too distant for a quick communication with a higher authority. Thus the Captain and his command were given a fair amount of discretion in decision making not only about the operations of the ship or the fleet, but also in matters of diplomacy, warfare, the mission, etcetera.

A ship of the line was a floating example of British civilization and a representative of His or Her Majesty in some limited respects (very limited). But what a ship of the line could do was none-the-less amazing by any historical standards.

The crew was made up of men steeped in craft and technical know-how that made them not only able to sail over the most treacherous waters of the ocean, but to rebuild their ship, build new ships and construct colonies and outposts if needs be, navigate, chart new waters, conduct scientific expeditions, communicate with indigenous populations, use and repair weapons, communicate in a number of coded languages, speak an expansive technical vernacular that understood economic,military, diplomatic realties, and in short, serve as representatives of the British Empire.

When I think of boys, I wonder to myselfThey like that computer game- sure and they are pretty good using it too but how much do they really understand about what went into that device, both historically, materially, and technically?. How much can our boys replicate technical know how how far back does their knowledge begin?

Do our boys understand the mechanical advantage of pulleys? Can they build a wheel from wood to make a task easier? Can they make their own rope? Can they channel water to serve a use (irrigation- power- navigation- etcetera). Can they dig a trench? Can they turn mud into brick? Do they know the formulation of bronze, or the technique that hardened iron into steel? In short, can they build things from raw materials if they had too?

So I suppose I see the abilities to replicate what we consider civilization at its basic levels; shelter- motive power- basic fabrication of raw materials into tools and useful items that I would say are basic manly arts (but open to women as well).

This is not to pay short shrift to those arts of painting, architecture, design, music, dance, baking, pottery, etcetera. But there is a hierarchy of needs in a society I am sure we would all agree with.

I see boys and girls being trained to be paper pushing clerks in their schools with very short shrift given the arts I described above. I think this is problematic on many levels. I see generations being ignorant to the technology that they so insist is their birthright. I see an arrogance being born of this ignorance that can threaten our American experiment. Our tools are increasingly being designed and built by countries that understand hunger and hard work perhaps better than we. Indians (from India) seem very focused (to a fault perhaps) on insuring that they produce legions of highly trained technocrats and industrialists. And the results are surfacing in the business world.

So maybe Nessmuk is right- Are we sure that BP would have been happy with the focus of scouting? BP and Beard and Seton and men of their generation used the terms manliness without giggling and blushing they meant something very serious by it. And maybe some of you forum members might quickly point out that these men were troglodytes and sexist imperialist pigs. Fair enough- maybe they were not as enlightened as we might be in many regards. Never the less, I think we owe it to ourselves to look through the imperfections of our ancestors for what they had to offer us.

I personally think that these men understood first hand the enormity of the efforts of the age that they lived in and how easily we could all fall down without the right leadership and social energy focused n the proper rearing of children.

I no longer desire to debate you all on this subject because of obligations I have over here on my end. But I appreciate all the feedback you offered in this discussion and I hope it served in some way to inform future discussions on this forum and the way we discuss ideas of what boys and girls need to know and understand and how it is related to our larger programme of scouting and civilization.

Semper Paratus

Pappy

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LE Voyageur,

Was that supposed to be a cryptic nuanced back-handed compliment? I'm not sure. Congradulations on your assignment in the military.

But be at ease, I truly did my darndest to find the brilliance in your comments over the past week.

I believe you alreadyreceived my reports.

Pappy

FireKat,

Im glad to see youre getting to put to use the Forensic Psychology class you took at the community college last Fall. But you might need to brush up on your profiling skills. Im twice as old, but probably as immature as you might suppose. I am open to good advice, even from you (as long as it doesnt involve urine and a rope, a short pier, or hiking).

But I will agree to lay off the personal attacks, if you want to call them that. I find that a good many of the forum members arent too shy about giving their unsolicited opinions about me or others.

I was raised in an Italian American family in the suburbs of Chicago. My father, a great depression era kid, had mostly hoodlum friends. The idea of boy scouting was always considered to be laughable in my house growing up. Boy scouts were just above the contempt felt for Bobby Kennedy and his G-men who would harass my fathers friends, most notably Sam Giancana.

So it was quite a long evolution for me to discover that Boy Scouting and my Christian heritage were something to distill away from the more regrettable ethos of my Italian-American heritage.

But there is, I think, a shread of truth to the goody-two-shoes epitaph thrown at boy scouting from my fathers generation.

I can see it in some of the posters on this site. I dont think that my father and his hooligan friends would ever have gotten involved with a boy scouting unit- even if Bob White was running it. They were too involved in raiding the Indian burial sites along the Des Plaines River and hunting rabbits in the Jewish cemetery and playing practical jokes.

The closest my dad got to boy scouts was beating them up and throwing snow balls into their meetings in the basement of the school in Forest Park.

My eyes were open to scouting after 9-11 and my reassessment of a lot of things in my life.

The moral imperative of correctly raising boys struck me as obvious as the war began. As I took the reins of my sons scouting unit (with giant reservations- it was supposed to go to another man who got transferred to Pennsylvania) I looked into Baden Powell and the various web sites like Inquiry.net. I was amazed at what I found and inspired to take this calling that fell into my lap.

So I am middle aged a former college liberal radical who marched on Washington against the first Iraq war.

When I was in my early twenties I was an uber-liberal calling Boy Scouting fascist and traveling to the Soviet Union looking for answers.

When I was in my mid twenties I was living in a yurt on an artist colony in Maine growing my own food and slaughtering my own goats for food. (This confused my liberal friends at the time).

When I was in my thirties I was running a Bar in Chicago and running with poets and artists (and artists models).

When I was in my late thirties I re-read Ayn Rand, the Bible, Aristotle, Buckminster Fuller, and I discovered adulthood and became a school teacher and portrait painter, got married and had kids.

So here we are Fire Kat.

Again- Im sure that you and Lisa Bob and le Voyageur and Trevorum and Gold Winger are all very nice people. And I am sure that you all have really excellent reasons and passions for why you care about the scouting program that children receive.

I brought up the conversation about Manliness because I feel it is something important. The same with the BSA issues. I realize my style can be in-your-face and confrontational, but I have pretty much kept my sincerity in the posts. While I delight in agitating liberals and liberal environmentalists especially, I was not trolling for its own sake. I really do think we need to empower boys to be civilization builders and I can think of no greater earthly project than that.

Pappy

Lisabob,

That is all well and good. But sometimes a law is so vile, so against higher principles, that a little bit of civil disobedience might be a good thing. From the Boston tea party to the philosophies of Thoreau and Gandhi and MLK, disobedience to law and order are some of our nations greatest contributions.

My town Galesburg was a central hub of the Under-ground rail road. We were founeded by New York abolitionists and followers of John Brown.

I dont think teaching the boys that civil disobedience is against the Scout law is correct.

Mindless obedience unto itself is a dangerous mandate- and the two interpretations could be the difference between a Hitler Youth and a Boy Scout.

I'll bet your fellow travelers agree with that.

Pappy

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YOu want funny - How about- "I'm a professional Politcal Scientist."

Laugh Riot

But if quoting Monty Python and SNL songs is more to your liking- you get plenty of that here.

Pappy

I had a Nightmare last night.

I was in a pretty bad car wreck. I wake up in a strange bed.

The room I now find myself in is very neat and well ordered. Hanging on the wall are pictures of firemen all posing in front of fire trucks and rescue vehicles. A firemans helmet and axe also hang on the wall, along with a perfectly pressed Cub Scout uniform sealed in plastic wrap.

I can't feel my legs, and looking up over my covers I realize that they aren't there.

That is when Fire-Cat bursts into the room with a big smile and a hot bowl of Hungry-Man soup on a tray with a little yellow rose..

She says in a big Texas drawl -"Well good mornin Pappay! Everyone in the for'm sends dare reegards, and wanted me to git you all bayter and back to Scouter as soons'as was humaynly possble.

I awake in a cold sweat........

Pappy

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By your logic Bob,

The only people on this forum qualified to speak their mind about the BSA in this forum are Scouters whose units have either retained or grown their membership. Is that right?

I don't have the figures in front of me Bob, but wouldn't that exclude a lot of volunteers from the discussion?

I'm sure that you have heard of the term "Throwing pearls before swine."

Wouldn't you admit that many great BSA programs (Mine excluded of course) fail to build their ranks and in fact lose enrollments through perhaps no fault of their own?

Going with your logic Bob, hardly any scouter in my District would be qualified to discuss the merits of this or that in the BSA because the ranks in my District are dwindling.

I wonder how many of the other members of this forum meet your standards Bob. Do you think everyone on this forum runs a unit that holds to the BSA guidelines as you would wish them too? Are you aware of how all the other forum members run their programs, or if they have programs?

I take risks - no doubt. I know of a few scouts I have lost to no fault BUT my own. I have lost scouts through the inevitability factors as well - I have had parents pull scouts because they wanted their boys in sports instead of scouting. I have had parents join my troop for the opposite reason as well. I began with no ASM and hardly any Dads for support, now I have two ASMs and a cadre of auxiliary dads.

I have retained on average about 20 scouts over 5 years, 2/3 always being cub, the other BS. One year I had 42, another it dropped to 12 (6 kids were out for sports but remained enrolled).

But I shouldnt have to justify my arguments with my qualifications. I have no idea how effective you are in all your volunteer duties over the years, and I really have no interest in learning about your efficacy in those matters. I have shared with the other forum members the way I do things, and they all can judge for themselves how credible a voice I am. But please dont pull that old standard used by every jealous school child and self loathing adult Who do you think YOU are?

I know pretty well who I am, and how effective I have been. I dont grade my efforts very high because I am pretty critical of myself (except on this forum where I blow my horn pretty loudly.)

I would only ask that you look to the merits or faults of my arguments and not to my credibility. You have a very very sorry history in this regard, and I wouldn't want you to put your foot into it more than you already have.

Pappy

Well Fire Cat,

I guess you can give it as well as you can take it.

From one sexist to another - here's lookin at you Kid.

Pappy(This message has been edited by Pappy)

I rightly assumed you had a well developed sense of Humor, Lisa Bob.

Pappy

I would ad one caveat to local1400's remark.

I do not believe being a gay atheist activist makes Merlin a girly man. Taking soccer programs away from inner city kids makes him a girly-man.

Pappy

acco40 writes,

What surprised me about the views of the vast majority (I guess it was their Christian upbringing) that views mankind as separate from nature. In my view, we are just like the animals except for a much greater capability to foul our nest than most species.

Pappy responds,

Acco Acco Acco, You really dont mean this.

How many of those animal species that didnt mess their nests discover generalized scientific principles? How many of these clean nesting animals created civilizations and made their environment adapt to them rather than the other way around?

It sounds to me that what you learned in college was a lot more of the same self-loathing anti-human crap that is now pretty entrenched in most universities and high schools.

Congratulations- you are part of the enlightened class. Good luck inspiring boys with your view of things, Mr. Engineer.

If you want to stay left of center but get a more balanced role of what man has done to distinguish himself as a species, read the writings of R. Buckminster Fuller Critical PathGrunch of Giants, Integrity, or even Synergetics (Which is pretty thick and mathematical/metaphysical).

Pappy

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Old Grey Wise One,

The will of the people is only as good as the people whose will is being expressed.-- Unless of course you were being facetious.

If we left it completely up to the will of the people we would be demanding more and more largess and end up like the girly-men across the pond.

But I defer to Comrade Lisa Bob, she is the expert on these matters, ---even if she is a self-avowed Commie-lover.

Pappy