grampye

Ah yes. Winter Campout. 10 degrees. 2 AM. Tent starts shaking. Words I don't want to hear again, for sure.

"Mr. E, Brian knocked over a gallon of Orange Juice in our tent!"

It was about that time I began considering that opening on the district committee more seriously.

pmickle1027 - you mentioned Tuscarora, but let me add Camp Barton. It's out of the same council (Baden-Powell) and located on the shores of Cayuga Lake north of Ithaca. It's a small camp with everything an easy walk and a totally beautiful waterfront.

Obviously, he was glancing over his shoulder at the time, an unsafe practice at best ;

Question:

Does anyone remember the exact wording of the two side banners on the screen at the end of the final show? They were displayed at the sides of the poster Brandon had made. The upper part was "Love One Another". What was the lower part?

And have you ever watched ducks on the water? Everything looks OK, but who knows what's going on beneath that seemingly unruffled surface?

And then it happens... mooning!

Exclusion is too good for them. They should be burned at the stake! (or is that burned with the steak?)

Didn't I see something in YPT about cooking and eating one of your Scouts? I think it might be prohibited (or is that just one of the Grey Areas?)

I have no problem with it. After all, I suspect a lot of ducks would rather be eagles, but wouldn't we have to dumb down the requirements a bit?

Eagle BOR: So, Donald, which of the points of the Scout Law did you find the hardest to live up to?

Donald: Quack!

Eagle BOR: Quack?

Donald: Quack, quack, quack, quack, quack! (tries to eat the Eagle pin on the committee chairperson's lapel)

If it is important to us not to be rude, we need to realize that rudeness is in the eye of the beholder.

The fact that what would be seen as rudeness by the majority is not considered rude in the internet elite crowd is only meaningful while one is hanging out in a forum with others of a like ilk.

Is this possibly natural selection at work? Let's see.

1. Someone responds rudely to a post.

2. Person taking the hit can either hang in there or drop out of the forum.

3. Forum evolves into a community in which rudeness is now acceptable.

4. Rudeness becomes the standard for the online community

5. New people who object to rudeness are told they just don't understand the community and that what they perceived as rudeness is actually well within the community standards as to what is rude and what isn't.

6. Person can either accept this or drop out

7. Return to step 3

The problem with this has already been pointed out. There is no "Internet Community" with a universal standard of rudeness. Each forum is its own community with its own standards. You would be roundly criticised if you tried to live in Germany based on the rules for rudeness you learned in the US. Why should you then expect to be able to interact according to rules for behavior in one forum or set of forums when you go to another?

Most online forums could care less if any newbies join. I think it is being suggested that this one should and we should:

a) be kind in our responses - consider how the receiver will receive what you say

b) use real world standards when determining rudeness, not one evolved in some other online community.

And for those of you who have been hopelessly damaged by years of interaction in online communities and want help, pass your comments by me first and I will tell you if you are being rude ;

Our leadership guys were really good friends with the SPL of another troop in town. One year he was not able to attend summer camp with his troop and we offered to have him spend the week with us.

Towards the end of the week while he was out of the campsite his "friends" removed the troop numbers from his uniform and replaced them with ours.

I wish they had been able to pull it off, but unfortunately they messed up the sewing job and the sleeve was tight when he put it on. I can only imagine the ribbing he would have gotten when someone from his troop noticed his "defection".

Yes, I'm going, and I am so psyched!

The OA is a great organization and I can't remember ever meeting anyone who was haughty or arrogant at a NOAC.

OGE, it's too bad you didn't get involved so that the next guy would have at least one good guy to hang out with. It's not too late, you know.

I just recently got back into Scouting after a 20 year break to raise some adopted children, and when I heard that NOAC was going to be at Michigan State I got my application and money in (MSEE MSU 1964).

Sadly, my money was returned to me six months later with no explanation - just a check.

Oh well, I had been to two (Rudgers & CMU) - give someone else a chance.

Then about a month later I got an email about a special intensive inductions training session. A few phone calls and an extra $100 for late registration and I'm on my way.

Let me tell you, if anyone has the right to be arrogant and haughty, these guys do. They're like the Gods of the Induction. Some of them go back 30 years or more operating at the National level.

But I have never been treated as anything but a brother to them in any of my dealings with them. I sent an email to Dr. Buchman asking about the course and stating that I wasn't even sure at the time I could get a slot. Even though he didn't know me from Adam he responded immediately and promised me that if I could get there there would be a slot for me in his course.

And Dr Jay Dunbar. Dr. Jay is the author of a very famous booklet for ceremonies training called "The Drum". I was introduced to it back in the early '80s and it had a profound impact on the boys I was coaching at the time. After 20 years, I contacted him to see if I could get some more of the books. He responded immediately and told me that the current printing was sold out but that he would let me know when more were available.

And seven months later, he did. Haughty and arrogant people do not remember promises to nobodies seven months later.

And I get to spend four days with these guys.

I am so psyched!

(And just to forstall those who might think of me as one of those adult Arrowmen in it for himself, two of the three youth Arrowmen in our small troop are also attending and the other is on camp staff.)

So if you're going to NOAC and have some spare time, drop by the intensive inductions training sessions (or sign up - I believe there are still slots open) - I'll be the one with the big smile!

As far as changing an existing unit, good luck with that. I came is as Scoutmaster of a unit that was struggling about 9 months ago. It's not just the leaders you have to change.

Any boys who are currently in the troop are the ones who like it the way it is - anyone who didn't left. Likewise, their parents will happy with things the way they are and be very resistant to change as well (especially if it suddenly becomes more difficult to earn that Eagle), so from experience I can tell you that simply becoming the Scoutmaster will not solve your problems.

To change a unit culture takes a long time - years in fact. You will very seldomly be able to get the people who are there to see the light of a better way. Even if you can quote chapter and verse out of the Boy Scout bible, you will be told that that's well and good but it doesn't work here. The only way is to slowly replace them with ones you recruit from the new parents as Cubs graduate into the troop.

And that will not necessarily go smoothly either. At camp this summer I was informed by one of my older Scouts that what I was doing was going to destroy the troop, that a lot of the parents were against it and angry, and that if I continued, it would be me against the Scouts.

So if you decide to stay and try to change things, be prepared to stay with it for the long haul.

I would suggest that you volunteer as an ASM and work with the new boys. I say ASM because that way you can concentrate on the ones where you can make the most difference and not have to worry about the whole sorry show. Reqruit some other adults to help - they will be the core of your new team. If you are doing it right, sooner or later the existing crew will either graduate out of Scouting or give up in disgust at what the troop has become.

I would also suggest making some friends in Scouting outside the troop. You will need somebody to talk to when it gets too discouraging.

And keep us posted - it's always good to know I'm not the only one in the trenches.

Wingnut, your kind of seriousness is encouraged here. Sorry for your loss.

OK, maybe one more to test the waters....

This was back in the early '80s. For a while my Scouts had this skit they would do called "Swami". A line of them would enter and sit cross legged in a row. An "interpreter" would announce that the great and all knowing Swami was going to tell fortunes. A Scout with his head wrapped in a towel and wearing a bathrobe would then enter and sit at the end of the row next to the interpreter.

The "Swami" would converse briefly in gibberish and in a sing-song voice with the interpreter who would announce that the great Swami wished to tell someone's fortune by reading the bumps on their head.

A volunteer would be chosen and placed seated on the ground before the Swami who would examine their head. He would then converse again with the interpreter who would announce the "fortune".

Next, after another brief exchange, the interpreter would announce that the Swami wished to tell a fortune by reading a palm and again call for a volunteer.

The third time, the Swami wished to read a foot. The volunteer would be placed before the Swami who would remove the guy's shoe and sock, hand them to the Scout next to him, and begin examining his foot. The first Scout in the line would examine the shoe and then pass it to the next and so on.

When the shoe had reached the end of the line, the Swami would confer with the interpreter who would announce the fortune - "You are about to embark on a long and difficult journey." - just as the last in line threw the shoe dismissively over his shoulder into the woods behind him.

OK, that's the rough outline. We had done this a few times at camp-o-rees so everyone knew what to expect. We were at a camp-o-ree at a site of a small lake and the campfire was on the shore. The boys came in and sat with their backs to the lake and went through the routine. When it came time to chose the last "volunteer" they picked the Scoutmaster of one of the other troops in our town. He was wearing some pretty nice hiking boots and kept glancing apprehensively down the line as his boot was handed from boy to boy.

The boot reached the end of the line, the fortune was told, and something flew through the air and landed with a splash in the lake.

Afterward, when he'd got his boot back from the Scout at the end who had tossed the log over his shoulder he told me - "As I watched that boot disappearing down the line I kept telling myself "I know these guys - they wouldn't do that to me" but when I heard that splash, I wasn't really so sure."

I started this thread to perhaps hear about some of the great pranks that others had witnessed or been a part of, but it's getting way too serious for me. I had a couple more I was going to share, but I suspect they would just draw more fire. Too bad.

A couple of weeks ago I was witness to one of the greatest camp pranks ever.

Two of my Scouts - let's call them Joe and Sam - tentmates -had begun exchanging pranks. Two others - Ben and Tim - had come to Joe's aid.

Sam was out of the camp and the three conspiritors were trying to come up with an idea. Suddenly Ben exclaimed "We got to get a ladder!"

"Why a ladder?" Joe questioned.

"We'll put his bunk up on the roof over our dining area!"

Joe wasn't so sure, but Ben was and he and Tim headed down to Sam's tent. Soon the two of them were coming up the trail with the bunk and mattress.

They pushed a wooden bench over next to the roof and Joe and Ben got up on it. Tim passed the bunk and mattress up to them and they slid them up onto the roof.

I was watching all this and thinking it a pretty lame prank until Ben hopped down and whispered as he passed by "It's not Sam's bunk - it's Joe's."

I'm really sort of trying to feel my way to a position on this face painting here and I thank you all for your help.

Obviously, hazing is out, whatever that is, but are all pranks played by older boys on the younger ones hazing?

Apparently the OA has reached some conclusions here as face painting of one person by another is specifically forbidden as a part of any of their ceremonies.

As far as my own experience goes, I can only remember the look on one young man's face when he discovered what had been done to him, and imho, anything that has the potential of causing that kind of hurt should not happen in a Scout troop.

However, I can also see the possible benefits - the feeling of acceptance that can be provided by being included in the pranks.

How to resolve this? Any ideas?

I haven't been involved in any of the "hot" discussions, so I'm not aware of the history of this topic. I would guess that because it did cause animated discussion, the BSA has not been very clear on how to interpret this rule.

I recently had an incident in my troop. I am the relatively new Scoutmaster ( 15 years) of a troop with over 50 years of charter. At a campout a few months ago the older boys snuck into the younger boys tents while they were asleep and "painted" their faces using magic markers. None of the older boys were painted, and not all of the younger ones. In addition, one boy was awakened by being slapped in the face with a dead fish.

Some of the younger ones it was done to laughed. Some didn't.

The initial parent reaction was mixed, with at least one changing from "boyish pranks" to "a bad idea" when they heard other parents sharing their boy's reactions.

Apparently this has been going on for a long time. At summer camp, a couple of young men who had been members of the troop dropped in. We were standing around the camp fire and someone mentioned that one of the new boys had fallen asleep in his chair. One of the guests commented that perhaps it was time for some "war paint".

It seems to me that it would be difficult to find a point in the Scout Law that promotes this kind of activity.

I think the problem here is viewing those other than the candidates and ceremonies team members as "audience". Everyone attending the ceremony is a member of the "ceremonies team". It was many, many years ago, but I can certainly remember that I did not consider that half circle of silent brothers that we passed through as an "audience".

The purpose of the ceremony is to impart a message to the candidate. Everyone at the ceremony should be there to add to the ceremony, and not for their own pleasure. You need to decide what message you impart by having an "audience" rather than silent "members of the team".

Sit or stand? If you provide seating for those who would have problems standing, I see no problem with that, but they should not be placed in a special section. An inability to stand for long periods of time should not single someone out. Remember the admonition.

I am in agreement that brothers who can stand should.

One other suggestion. I would suggest requesting that brothers attending remain strictly silent during the ceremony. Brothers seen talking, even if they cannot be heard, will not be seen as part of the ceremony.

rpushies

Advisor vs Adviser - the way it was explained to me was that it had been done to distinguish between the position of post advisor for an explorer post and lodge adviser for an OA lodge. Any other theories?

If you're going to dream, you might as well dream big - you'll probably blow it anyway, but the trip will be way more fun!

A book is a mind speaking to your mind. Music is much more dangerous - music is a heart speaking to your heart.

When we know someones heart, their actions stop shouting at us.

You can act without love, but you cannot love without acting.

Neither the person inside nor the person outside a fence needs to move from where they are to tear it down.

Love doesnt stop the hurt, it just allows us to endure it.

Todays advances are the building blocks for tomorrows barricades

Commit to advancing, not to an advance.

Sometimes backing up is the only way we can move forward.

When you fish for boys, your heart makes the best bait.

A questioning mind and an accepting heart - not an accepting mind and a questioning heart.

Everyone wants desperately to fly, but most dont know it. Even fewer know how.

When you fly, fly for the sheer joy of flying, not to get somewhere.

The second most compelling reason to want to fly is having watched others do it. The first is having done it yourself.

Sins forgiven and failures encouraged.

Use things and love people - George Burns.

Perfectly balanced people don't move.

I just recently got re-involved in Scouting and ran into an all too familiar scenario.

We are located in one of the corners of our council, and I noticed on our lodge's website that there was supposed to be a chapter here. The other day I met the lodge adviser and asked him about it. He told me that the boys had tried putting together the chapters, but it just didn't work.

I suspect that it didn't work because adults weren't doing their job. I wonder if the adults had been out talking up chapters to the Scoutmasters so they could encourage their youth Arrowmen to be involved? It is a boy run organization, but it is an adult supported boy run organization. If the local unit leaders don't support the attempt, their boys probably won't be interested.

To me, the OA is the top of the Scouting program. It is the place where the lessons learned (Scouting is a game with a purpose) are extended out of the troop and into the scouting world at the district, council, section, and even national level. When your scouts top out on the leadership ladder, where can you take (note "take", not "send") them for advanced hands on training?

It is the job of every adult arrowman to promote the program and encourage and help their youth to take full advantage of the things that the OA has to offer them. This includes talking up OA activities (that don't conflict with troop activities), including the OA calendar in their yearly planning sessions (you DO have a yearly planning campout for your troop leadership, don't you?), setting the example by being involved at the chapter and/or lodge level whenever possible, and TAKING THEM WITH YOU.

And even if you can't contribute during the lodge or chapter meetings, you can do a lot of counseling on the way there and on the way home and even around a troop campfire.

It doesn't take much. I remember being involved in a do-nothing chapter with a chapter chief and adviser whose only activity was at the lodge level. I just mentioned to my Scouts who were either in the OA or were scheduled to go through their ordeal that fall that they had enough votes between them to decide who the next chief would be, and that perhaps they just might want to decide how to use that power. I didn't tell them who to vote for or even how to decide, I just suggested that they might want to think about their vote based on how they'd like to see the next year in the chapter work out.

The boy they picked was a brand new Ordeal member (NOT from our troop) who was elected chapter chief that year and lodge chief the next. That probably wouldn't have happened without that little nudge I gave them around that campfire that night (plus all the times I provided transportation to lodge executive board meetings and all the talks we had on the way and back).

It is the job (one of them anyway) of all adults in the Order to grow in the same way as boys do - we aren't that much different (ask our wives). It is also our job to instruct and help other younger adult Brothers in the Order in what we have been taught and learned. Therefore, Arrowmen involved in these forums are serving the Brotherhood, both learning and teaching.

Funny Story:

One of the boys in our troop involved in the discussion was the lodge ceremonies chief and I was his adviser. As such, we were at a lodge executive board meeting to plan the fall weekend. The lodge adviser was asking if anyone had any possible candidates for lodge chief. My scout informed him that they had plans to first fix the chapter so they couldn't help them this year. The chapter adviser suddenly becme very interested in the conversation. In fact, my boy stated, they had already decided who the chief was going to be. You could almost see the smoke coming out from under the chapter adviser's collar. Then came the final blow.

"So, can you tell us who you've picked?" asked the lodge adviser. True to form, my boy, with perfect timing, realized that he had said too much. "I don't think Mr. xxx (that was me) wants us to tell you."

Gee, I wonder. When did this start? When I was lodge adviser (Gajuka 477 - 1981-1983), I remember someone putting someone else down for having a dirty sash, and someone (might even have been me) pointed out that a dirty sash could be considered a badge of honor.

I guess I would say that we just need to keep our purpose in mind in wearing the sash. I can see two - representing the order to outsiders and representing it to brothers and especially ordeal members. I believe perhaps different messages need to be sent?

And I don't think it needs to be dirty, but it probably needs stains.

I like the two sash idea.

And just be careful. I had taken a bunch of guys up to Syracuse to a NLS and because they were uniquely crazy, they got to hang out for the weekend with the National Vice Chief Kevin Moll. Lou asked Kevin to sign his sash (knowing he'd have to retire it). A couple of days after we returned home, his mom told him "Who the heck wrote on your sash? I had to wash it five times to get it out!"