FScouter

The four individuals are all moms of Scouts in the troop. Their positions are secretary, treasurer, activities, and advancement. They all have two reasons for not buying a uniform: they don't work with the boys on a regular basis, and they don't want to pay the price. (The cost now is well over $100 excluding insignia). I'm not sure what you mean by "how necessary are they". The functions they're responsible for are important and necessary, but are mostly behind-the-scenes as far as the boys are concerned. Excluding boards of review of course.

The CC/COR owns and wears the uniform.

I could not agree with you more about the importance of uniforming. And I totally agree that adults should set the example and wear it. But, I have not yet been able to convince four members of our committee to buy the uniform. Maybe you have an idea.

Rooster7 Your comments at the top of this thread hit home. Ive been accused in these forums of being untrained too. There seems to be a holier-than-thou tone present in some posts. Folks come here for new ideas and to see how others deal with issues. Why do they have to be belittled in the process?

One cannot become expert at the Scouting game overnight. It is a continuous learning process. In my situation, I came back into Scouting with zero knowledge other that what I learned as a youth member. After participating in several trainings, and working with the troop, Im a lot better at it than on day one. But here, express an opinion that conflicts with anothers interpretation of Scouting aims and methods, and youre likely to get your nose rubbed in it.

We dont all have 25+ years of experience and we havent all been personally trained by Bill Hillcourt. But were not untrained and were not out to re-invent the program, and we dont intentionally violate rules and policies. We're here to learn more and become better leaders.

The boys in the troop once connected all their belts together and made one long belt about 20 feet long. Then then went looking for someone to "rescue" with their homemade "rope".

You can also move the buckle up and cut off 12 or 18 inches. Leave some room for growth. I smear a little white glue on the cut end so it won't fray. Maybe the pants will shrink a bit in the wash?

Rooster7 - No, I'm on the west coast. This Scout was in D.C. on vacation and made this observation while walking back to his hotel near the Amtrak station from the Lincoln memorial. It was night and the last shuttle bus had already left. He saw memorials that most folks don't know exist, such as the Albert Einstein memorial. You see a lot more by walking. Anyway, virtually every federal building along Constitution Avenue had the U.S. flag raised, with no light.

He felt this significant because at home there was a nasty newspaper article about a BSA council office that flew the flag at night with no light. Turns out there was a light, but it wasn't aimed properly and wasn't very bright. But the newpaper made this out to be a horrible transgression, and a particularly bad example for Scouts.

He wrote a letter to his congressman quoting the flag code, and received a reply worthy of a politician.

I stumbled across this today regarding the Arrow of Light. BSA refers to the Arrow of Light as an award. It also refers to it as a rank. Article X, Section 1, Clause 4 of the BSA rules and regs states There shall be the following ranks in Cub Scouting: Bobcat, Wolf, Bear, Webelos, and Arrow of Light. Also, the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures book states on page 18 There are five ranks in Cub Scouting: Bobcat ... Wolf ... Bear ... Webelos ... Arrow of Light .... On the other hand, on page 19 it states While working toward the Webelos rank and the Arrow of Light Award, the boy also may earn ... and When he has earned the Arrow of Light Award .... Based on what Bob said, it sounds more like an award than a rank. I suppose one could take either interpretation without being wrong. Maybe somewhere else in the regs the two terms are defined. Either way, the requirements to earn it are clearly defined.

One could ask the parents of each new Scout to complete a Troop Resource Survey. Maybe ask all parents to complete another one annually, in case anyone acquires a new skill.

A Scout in our troop observed that the flag being flown on several federal buildings was not being lowered at night, and that there was no light on the flags. He wrote his congressman asking why the government was apparently violating the federal flag code. The buildings included a federal courthouse, the National Archives, and several others on Constitution Avenue in Washington D.C.

In addition to the standard cap, the campaign hat is also an official uniform hat. Has anyone ever seen a troop all wearing the campaign hat?

The relationship between our troop and our pack and our chartered organization is better when the registered adult leaders attend CO meetings and events, and when the Scoutmaster and Cubmaster periodically report the doings of their units. A service project for the CO now and again helps too.

Rooster - Just to be clear, the org chart shows the troop committee over the Scoutmaster, not the committee chair.

The org chart in the Troop Committee Guidebook depicts the Committee over the Scoutmaster. That doesnt necessarily infer that the committee chair as an individual rules over the Scoutmaster any more than one could infer that the chair rules over the entire committee. As an aside, in many organizations the chair presides over meetings as well as having various other responsibilities. Power is not commonly bestowed on the chair. It is even common that the chair, as the presiding officer, has no vote on committee matters. However, by virtue of presiding over a meeting, the chair can make it difficult to present motions, or allow motions to come to a vote. Roberts Rules of Order talks about this.

In our unit, the SM serves for an indefinite period of time. There is no automatic annual review process. It is probably not a bad idea to address the subject every year or so around re-charter time, just so the committee and the chartered organization can agree that the SM is delivering the promise. Ive never found any BSA policy or guideline that talks about a required annual review of the Scoutmasters tenure. The book doesnt talk about removing the Scoutmaster either, but one could infer that the committee could recruit a replacement at any time, with the approval of the chartered organization. I would not agree with the assertion that the SM serves at the will of the COR. That seems quite pompous.

MomScouter -- Do you about an update? Has your commissioner and committee made any headway regarding your Scoutmaster issue?

Im dismayed that so many posters seem to want to see this Scoutmasters head in a basket. The boy hasnt been denied his rank. Hes got a little bump in his path to Eagle. He cant deal with this without seeking the intervention of a higher authority (or lower support layer as is apparently the official BSA phrase)? Im not defending the Scoutmaster in the least. He is wrong. But the world is full of people that are wrong and things that arent fair. Get used to it. Thats part of whats wrong with society today. Too many people want some higher authority or judicial system to step in and make right all the injustices they encounter in their lives.

NJCubScouter - In your case, if you combine all your years, you would need two stars with a blue backing to signify your 12 years. As a lawyer, you may appreciate that the rules regarding service stars can be found in the Uniform Insignia Guide #33006.

I would add that information found on the internet may or may not be accurate. Even information gotten from fellow Scouters and roundtable meetings is sometimes faulty. Like NJCubScouter, I like to see everything in writing.

Part of good character is being able to work with others. Including those that are wrong, or with whom one does not agree. In his life, this young man will encounter many people like his Scoutmaster. How will he deal with them? Working out an equitable solution through dialog will take him a lot further in life than calling on a higher authority to intervene on his behalf.

This is not to say one should compromise ones principles or submit to the demands of the another. But make a strong effort to work it out directly with the Scoutmaster first. Failing that, turn it over to a higher authority.

Ed -

I'd be interested in hearing what your wrote.

I love it. Thinking of reading it at a court of honor, or asking the boys to each read a paragraph. OGE, do you know who wrote it?

Talk to your committee chair and the commissioner assigned to your pack by your district. Your commissioner is charged with assisting your unit with issues such as this. The commissioner is more your friend and a fellow Scouter than a Scouting authority.

I agree with Rooster7 that many BSA policies are intentionally fuzzy. And that the purpose of that fuzziness is to allow flexibility for the unit to interpret the policies, using common sense. And as jmcquillan pointed out, to follow the spirit of the Scout Promise and Scout Law. I believe our unit has an obligation to write by-laws. For if we do not, then individual leaders, committee members, and parents will interpret BSA policy to suit their own dispositions. And those interpretation will sometimes differ, leading to conflicts in the unit. It is because of these conflicts that as a unit we need to all get on the same page. By-laws will do that for us.

Our committee feels it prudent to REQUIRE that all our Scouts use transportation approved by the committee and covered under our tour permit. There is nothing in any BSA publication Im aware of that exempts any Scout from this, regardless of what Dad wants to do. I completely respect Bob Whites interpretation of that policy, and he will probably never have a problem. But our committee prefers a more stringent interpretation.

Even that bold lettering in the Guide to Safe Scouting can be fuzzy. One would think that the BSA two-deep leadership rule would be above question. The policy, in bold lettering says Two registered adult leaders, are required for all trips or outings. Then in the very next sentence, also in bold lettering, it says There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. I would hate to be in a unit where adults start deciding that they have instances where only one leader is needed, or no leader is needed!

Weve taken lots of trainings. Between the individuals working on these by-laws, weve completed at least ten different trainings including Woodbadge. One of our committee members is the district training chair. As Bob White pointed out, training and knowledge of the program should come before by-laws.

Bob White, I would really value your comments and input. Would you be willing to review a draft?

May I suggest that you try to work this issue out with your Scoutmaster? Is your hair neat, clean, and well kept? If not, fix that and discuss it with him. Demonstrate to him through your actions and attitude that you are a worthy candidate for Eagle rank. Show him your Eagle application packet and how you have prepared the presentation of your Eagle project. Ask him if there are any areas he feels that you could improve your candidacy. Avoid arguing with him about your hair, rather let him see compelling reasons why he can back off from his stance.

Remember that you need your Scoutmaster's signature on your application. He may not have a "legal" right to hold you back in this manner, but it will get ugly if you or your parents have to resort to going over his head. You will be a much stronger Eagle, and better prepared for life, it you are successful in working out this issue directly with your Scoutmaster.

Good luck!

If you pull your kid out, how does that help the other seven boys? Now go do the right thing.

Bob White -

You mentioned several resources I had not heard of before: the Ideal Year in Scouting, Budget video, and Youth Protection manual. That is part of the difficulty our committee and myself are having. We have already pulled policies out of eight different publications, and here are three more. The committee wants a handy reference document to guide them. That is what we are in the process of creating. Too often individuals spout rules and policies like they are gospel without really knowing for sure. It is not easy to find answers in BSA publications, and very often the discussion found there is couched in terms like is suggested successful troops do ..., it is important, or units should . . .. Why cant they just say must, shall, and required? Or optional?

Most of the issues I listed earlier in the thread are discussed in BSA publications. But the discussions are vague and fuzzy and some of us in the troop feel compelled to clarify them. For example, we want to know what training committee members must have. The Troop Committee Guidebook says The Barbecue video SHOULD be reviewed by all ... members of the troop committee. And 15 pages later ... committee members SHOULD REVIEW the ... Fast Start videos. That kind of wording makes training sound optional. Our by-laws will say All committee members must view The Barbeque video, must complete Fast Start training and must complete Youth Protection training within six months of being selected as a member of the committee.

And what about the dad that decides at the last minute to drive his own son to the campout? Some may not have a problem with that, but what about BSA? The dad is not on the tour permit, and who knows about his insurance or drivers license status. Will the boy wear a seatbelt? Should the Scoutmaster tell the dad that he may not transport his own son? What if he crashes into a tree on the way up to camp? And we find out his insurance has lapsed? As a leader, I dont want to deal with that kind of scenario. Thus, our by-laws will read All Scouts shall be transported to Scout activities using vehicles and drivers pre-approved by the committee, and listed on the tour permit. Sorry Dad, you may NOT drive your own son.

Thats why I feel our troop needs by-laws.