fotoscout

Hi Bob,

Its not about having exhausted anything, although Im flattered that you think me capable of having accomplished so much with my boys. Its about challenge and interest.

Look at the matrix

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xds&terms=age+appropiate+guidelines&x=43&y=10

Now go back to those few items I mentioned earlier. We can go swimming, but we cant go rowing. We can play ice hockey or go go-carting but we cant go canoeing. We can go rollerblading or Skiing but we cant go rafting. Hello, we are an outdoors program and we cant take 7-8 year olds, with their parent, out onto a flat calm lake in a rowboat. I posted my thoughts on why the rules exist. But the more I look at them the more I wonder just how they were put together. Any number of the items that I just mentioned have equal or greater risk than would a 2 hour flatwater rowboat outing.

Here is an example of what Im talking about. Summer time den activity, planned trip to Lake Stillwater. Planned activity to include picnic and 3 hour canoe rental for each cub & parent pairing. We will paddle from the dock to the ice cream shack and back. (big adventure the shack is around the bend, less than a mile but an achievable adventure for bunch of 7-8 year olds) This is a fictitious event, but it highlights my point. We could not do this as a den activity. CS cannot go canoeing.

So you might say, well Foto, since you cant go canoeing do something else. Set up a trip to the Skate Park and let the boys go rollerblading. Sure I could do that, each kid would come with a parent, the parents would all find a bench and the kids would go off and skate. Some time later the kids would come back and wed all go home. Have I introduced a family component to this outing? NO. Aside from that, if the kid doesnt rollerblade he wont come to this activity. But guess what happens when the kid knows that hes going to spent the whole afternoon on a canoe with dad? Ill bet my shoulder loops that everyone one of the kids would show up. Its about the adventure and the challenge; its not about just having an activity.

Id like to go back to this exercise for few minutes.

Bob,

The G2SS restrictions exist for a number of reasons. Wed all hope that they were all based entirely on safety, and some assessment about age appropriateness. However in todays world its probably shortsighted to exclude the potential for litigation from the list of reasons for the restrictions. Additionally, I would think that there is some attempt to here to prevent CS Leaders from going too far with CS, and removing the lure of BS by over exposing the CS to certain activities. Regardless why the restrictions exist, I still thing that we need to raise the bar in some areas.

Ill use our local soccer program as a comparison. Traditionally we play only intramural (within our own league) soccer for our 7-8 year olds. Teams are established by a draft, each team gets one or two or 3 very good players. What weve found is that the very good players lose interest and dont want to continue into the 8-9 year old bracket because they are not challenged enough in the intramural games. So whats happened? The league is establishing 7-8, and 8-9 year old travel teams. Why?, to raise the bar, to enhance the challenge and add to the adventure. In a nut shell, to keep these boys in the program! Unfortunately the coaches and parents allow this to get out of hand and it becomes an all consuming win at all cost experience. I dont believe that the same thing would occur in scouting.

The point is that many of the young kids today need that extra challenge. If we cant give it to them they will lose interest and go elsewhere.

Emmon,

Im all for staying in the community, and I have said so in the past. We do all the nice community minded things that CS should do. That part of the program is a great learning experience for the boys and a great shared experience for the Parent/Cub. The purpose of the CS program is not so much to directly benefit the local community, but to indirectly support the community by helping to develop the youth of that community; we are here to benefit the boys that are enrolled in our program and by doing that we help our communities. We are not the local food pantry; we are not the local thrift shop. We support these activities, but the existence of these groups is not dependent on us. We teach the boys the importance of supporting these activities, but again they are not dependent on us. Our focus is not the local charitable establishments, and I will leave a deeper youth involvement in those areas to the local church youth groups. Additionally, as I implied earlier, these kinds of community based programs appeal to one kind of child but not all.

I dont believe that District/Council activities get in the way. They are a terrific opportunity of the boys to be a part of the larger scouting family. They have the potential to bring a higher level of activity to the boys and they provide the opportunity to add greater challenges to the CS program. They should not be the backbone of our CS programs, but they provide a much need function.

Peer mediation is a technique that is being taught in the schools around here. The kids learn to diffuse their own problems. It falls into the category of learning how to avoid confrontation.

Peer Mediation

My son is almost 8 and he will be testing for his brown belt in Kempo tomorrow night. It should take him about another 2 years before hell be ready for his black belt. Actually its a junior black belt. That would make him 10-11 years old. Young, yes. But its a junior black belt and the children know that. They also realize that if they intend to go forward and want that real black belt, they have a lot of hard work ahead of them. And ultimately, they will be tested as an adult to retain there black belt status. In our school they cannot get a senior black belt until they are 18. After they get a junior black belt they are invited to be junior instructors, demo team members, and other leadership positions within the school.

OGEs question was , does it have merit to award young children a black belt? I would answer yes, absolutely. It takes the kids about 5 years to get that far. The kids has to have commitment to stay with it that long. My son truly belongs at the dojo. He is comfortable, and has some great friends, and has a positive relationship with the senseis. Is this starting to sound familiar? He wears his gi with pride, and would not be caught dead at the dojo without his dojo school tee shirt. Rank advancement is about every 4-8 months. The belts are not unlike Tiger/ CS beads. He gets rigorously tested for each advancement. No messing around here! The tests are hard, both physically and mentally. His brown belt test tomorrow will be 2 hour non stop session. Hell fidget and squirm, hell laugh and hell put on his karate face. In the end hell be the proudest kid in the world. So yes it has merit. As a junior black belt, the kids have to master the same set of requirements, kata's and forms, as do the adults. There is no slackening of the requirements because they are children. The only difference 'snap' and power that is behind the movements. Within their own maturity bracket, they need to do their best, but they have to know the material.

PS. Our school does not stress competition. The children are not required to compete, and my son does not. Fitness, self control and discipline are the earmarks or our school, not fighting.

If you are in school that stresses competition, get out and find another school. You are in the wrong place.

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

To say that the martial arts are about kicking and punching is like saying that Boy Scouts is about Camping. Kicking and punching, like camping, is the method used to meet the objectives. Yes, the martial arts are about self defense, but aims of the martial arts are really discipline, self control, and wellness of body and spirit. Yes, it's probalbly time for a martial arts merit badge.

Evmori, I think your wife could enlighten us further.

Bob,

I don't think any revision would be needed to run this as a council activity. It is allowable as a Council activity. A change would need to occur for us to do some of these things as a den or pack activity.

Yes I imagine they could do it as a stand alone activity. I'm not familuar with Camp Policies.

Gotta go, I'm getting the evil eye. No rest for the weary, have to go to Boston. Meeting tonight with Paul Revere, something about a tea shippment.

Im not sure that there is any thing like a Watered Down Activity. The kids do their best all the time. The only difference is that as they get older there best gets better and the activity becomes more challenging.

Just look at the bicycle analogy. tricycle, bike with training wheels, bicycle, bigger bicycle, mountain bike, motorcycle. The 3 year old got as much out of his tricycle experience as the adult does with his motorcycle experience.

Why do you think the G@SS has program based restrictions?

Bob, I dont understand the question? Please rephrase.

This Council has developed a pretty full camp scheduled including Cub Resident, Parent/Cub Weekends, Family Camp, and a very complete Day Camp Schedule. Thats all great within the Summer Camp environment. As Packs, we do overnighters at different locations, District/ Council does run these activities, nor do they need to. But again those are not the kinds of challenging outdoor or athletic activities that we should be able to bring to the boys. Dont get me wrong, an overnighter at the Science Museum or on the Battleship is great, but its a different type of activity.

Cub Express has a greater appeal to one kid vs. another kid. In a similar way the outdoor activities have a greater appeal to one kid vs. another. I simply think that we need more opportunity to bring some of the outdoor activities to the kids. Some of the restricted activities can be safely accomplished at the den level. If not, at least at the district level. Our district does not offer any targeted and specific outdoors programs for CS. For instance, we do not have a District or Council Canoe Day for CS (1/2 day Cub/Parent, Council Supervision, BS Lifeguards in some canoes or a chase boat). Sure the kids that go to camp will get to go canoeing, but it wont be a pint sized challenge (adventure). Itll be a 60 min. activity sandwiched in between two other 60 minute activities.

Granted we dont have unlimited personnel to do all the great things we want to do, and probably what I see here is a local thing. But I cant help thinking that more of us would do these kinds of things with our kids if the restrictions were eased. BTW, this area did see a drop in membership over the last year.

Absolutly, changes in the membership ages would be a programmatic change. If by program elements you mean shifting Bear Achievments to Wolf Achievements I would agree they are also programmatic changes. But as far as what I suggested with respect to age appropriate acitivites, I don't think that this would be progammatic. These are not required acitivities. They enhance the scouting expierance, so I would call them enhancements. I know taht this is splitting hairs, but it would have no effect on membership, rank, or advancement. So I would not call it a programmatic change.

Perhaps! The standout fact here is that Little League gives the boys the uniform and expects that it will be worn. Maybe if the troop or pack gave the new leader his/her first uniform in a meaningful and educational ceremony it would be worn. Same for the kids, maybe?

Dont ask about funding, this is a philosophical debate.

A comment on Bobs historical perspective. His comment is presented in the context of programmatic change, and I am sure that that is partially true. However, the other contributing factor was (and still is) the market. We want boys in scouting; we want organizations to charter BSA units. A great deal of what drove some of the changes mentioned was simply the competitive market for todays youth. As for merit badge updates, I put that into the survival category. Nothing could more quickly make BSA pass than outdated MB booklets. Adding MB booklets is a programmatic update, but maintenance on the existing ones is survival.

As Emmon points out, good leaders will continue to provide interesting and exciting meetings. But you both avoided the challenging part. Take a look at the age appropriate guidelines with special attention to the things that Cubs cant do. Here is a sampling, Canoeing, Kayaking, and Rafting. The hurdle Bob, and there are two of them, are that (1) the G2SS prevents dens and packs from engaging in many of the activities that boys of this age find challenging, and (2) many CS leaders dont have the skills or expertise to conduct these kinds of activities. So, why Council / District? Simple, because the G2SS allows for some these activities to be done at that level. But, other than in the camp environment, these kinds of activities are not available to dens or packs. Sure, we can do these things as family activities (yes Bob, we all know your thoughts on that one), but wouldnt it be nice to have these kinds of activities regularly scheduled through the Council/District. I pulled these items out of the aquatics group, but the same argument could well be made with many of the activities that are off limits to Cub Scouts.

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

Since when does little leaugue set their rules by the Boy Scouts of America or vice-versa.

(by the way the little league rules also state that the teams will provide the uniforms for the players and that the uniforms remain the property of the league, If your unit bought the uniforms for every scout perhaps they would wear them?)

Did someone say that BSA had a rules shareing agreement with Little League??

Little League does provide the uniforms, and everyone is expected to wear them. Bob, your suggestion might not be such a bad idea.

In a convoluted sort of way Wallace makes an interesting point.

Children today are maturing more quickly. What used to be exciting and challenging for a 16 year old is now appropriate for a 14 year old, and so on down the age brackets. Todays children tend to be more independent than yesterdays children. Todays kids are without question more street wise than yesterdays.

The point is that in order to keep the boys interested we need to bring them activities that are exciting and challenging at all ages. Perhaps what BSA needs to do is rethink the age appropriate guidelines for all activities.

My personal tendency is to hold back on the good stuff so that the boys have something to look forward to as they get older. That may very well be flawed logic. What we may really have to do is give the boys better stuff now, and as they get older, push them to find more challenging activities. Ok so now someone is thinking Venturing. Thats good for the older kids, and remember its not Boy Scouts.

But what about the younger kids? Do CS Leaders have the ability to offer a more challenging program at the den level. I would have to say, no, not in a universal sense. Some could, but most could not. So now we go full circle and come back to the need for Councils or Districts to offer better CS activities.

Any thoughts???

Little League is voluntary, Little League is private, local Little League is chartered by the National Organization, and Little League has mandatory uniforms.

Just a simple observation.

We have recently gone through a great national debate (and maybe we still are), about uniforms in schools. I believe that the public is well informed as to the character issues relative to uniforms. In fact as Ive had this discussion with the parents of my kids, the school uniform issue always comes up.

We do have a responsibility to bring that message, in BSA terms, to the parents. But without a policy, it will never happen.

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

< The problem is sufficient motivation brought about by an acceptance of the purpose of a full uniform. If more leaders understood the methods of scouting more scouts and leaders would wwear a complete uniform. >

Bob,

That might be so, but its only the tip of the iceberg, and I think a very small part of the reason why uniforming is inconsistent. First and foremost, without a national policy that mandates that the uniform be worn, we will never have everyone in uniform.

Then there is the do you or dont you mentality. Personally I think that this is the main reason why many people wont wear the uniform. They simply dont want to be too closely associated with BSA, and by not wearing the pants they feel that they are displaying some sense of insurgency, a personal statement if you may. The adults make the statement for themselves; the parent manipulates the child to do the same. I think that I can safely say that no young CS ever said to his mom or dad, I dont want to wear the uniform pants. He may argue that he doesnt want to wear the shirt, but if he wears the shirt you can be assured that he wants to wear the pants. As further support for this thought, I find that the boys who are in full uniform are also the boys who attend virtually all of our functions. There is a direct correlation between uniform and commitment to the program.

Style, material, and fit! They are all excuses. National still has some of the old style pants available, and there are plenty available on ebay. The new style has elastic, and cargo pockets, thats very different than the old style. I believe that there are even different materials available, if you do some searching.

We talk a lot about the cost of uniforms, but I know of no one who wanted a uniform and could not get one. Packs, Troops, Districts, and Councils all have uniform banks. There are always uniforms available at little or no cost.

Granted, a Leader out of uniform is a bad example. But to think that, failure on the part of the leaders, is a cause for poor uniforming is just too shallow for me.

opps(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

ThermaRest sells a no skid band to wrap around the pad. It is about 18 inches wide and works pretty well.

Also, you can go to any carpet store and buy a few feet of non-skid material. This is the stuff that carpet installers put underneath an area rug. All you have to do is lay it on top of the pad, before you roll out your sleeping bag. This works very well.

Oops...

TwoCub, this is a great quote!!

.......If a Scout's idea of "Class A" never rises above what he wears to dinner on the fifth day of summer camp, he's missing an important lesson........

Oops...

TwoCub, this is a great quote!!

.......If a Scout's idea of "Class A" never rises above what he wears to dinner on the fifth day of summer camp, he's missing an important lesson........

TwoCub, this is a great quote!!

Bob,

With respect to the campsite location, we have a list of campsite locations pre approved for use with Cub Scouts. This is a location approval; it does not imply tour permit approval. Our council camp does not have the parking space for the number of vehicles involved with a CS overnighter in addition to its regular schedule of BS activities. So they have a limited list of County/State Park campsites that can be used for CS.

I carefully removed the word All from the G2SS line, for the very reason that you pointed out. Much of what is in the G2SS is simply prudent by todays standards and a good outline to follow. It wouldnt matter if I was taking a CS group camping, or a class on a field trip, some of it just makes good sense in todays world.

On another topic Bob, do you have the survey I referred to? There was a section on Child and Parent expectations of the CS program. I am interested in seeing that section.

There is a piece of the discussion that is missing.

The point here really is the importance of CS camping. CS and CS parents expect to go camping. They expect the program to be outdoors. I dont have the survey, Bob you probably have it, but National did survey that, amongst other things came to the conclusions I just mentioned.

I understand that its this survey that spawned the current CS camping push by National.

The point should not be one of liability fears. The point should be one of giving the boys a safe and positive outdoor experience.

Good morning everybody,

Lets make sure we dont get confused here.

This year Pack Overnighter

Council Approved Cub Scout Camp Site .Yes

All the G2SS rules followed.Yes

Tour Permit Yes

Baloo trained.Yes

Last years Family Overnighter

Council Approved Cub Scout Camp Site .Yes

The G2SS rules followed.Yes

Tour Permit No

Baloo Trained.No

As TwoCub very nicely points out, there are number of ambiguities in the G2SS rules for Cub Scout camping. We camped in the same way last year as we camped this year. Baloo stresses structure and if youre going out in the woods with a group of 6-7 year olds you darn well better have structure, no one needs Baloo to tell them that. Our program last year was identical except for some age appropriate changes. The only thing we could not do was to put up our Den Flag. Prior to going everyone knew that this wasnt really a CS trip. I explained the reasoning and even gave them a copy of the lines that TwoCub noted above. The end result was that they thought less of the Scouting Program for having such ridiculous rules. Granted they have little understanding of the CO relationship. But from the outset, last year, we went as friends.

The casual observer (and there was one) commented, Wow, you guys really have your act together. The Scouter would have commented, Gee, there must be a Baloo trained person in the group, and of course there was not.

This year was a by the book Pack trip.

Bob White writes ....Den leaders (Tiger, Wolves and Bears) are not trained in the safety, sanitation, and program rules for den camping.....

So Bob, youre advocating that anyone who has sat through Baloo training is now qualified to the extent necessary to lead a Cub Scout Pack on an overnighter. You say that, that person, by virtue of Baloo, is now competent in, what did you refer to, safety, sanitation, and program rules. They got all of that out of an eight hour course.

Then they went to Costco, or Sams Club and bought a dance hall size tent for $49.00. Now, theyve taken Baloo and they own a tent.TA DAAAA.. a new camper is born. And, tour permit in hand, this camper is going to lead a group of Cub Scouts into the woods.

We had over one inch of rain last Saturday. The program went forward, only one person went home because his tent was soaked, (and that was because he didnt listen), and everyone had a great time. Not even one Bandaid was dispensed. It wasnt Baloo that made it happen!

One Hour,

That's effectively what we setup. Campsite setup, food and rank appropriate activities by den. We setup our food as a den activity. It encouraged the parents to interact more, and it let the Webelos be more involved with their meal preparations. It worked well. Flag ceremonies, free time and campfire for everyone. Everyone had a great time, its unfortunate that weather kept so many away.

And Thank You.

Den Family Camping, Friends of Den X Camping, Friends of Pack XXX Camping or whatever wed like to call it, ought to be the backbone of Cub Scout Camping. Small groups of energized little boys enjoying the outdoors together with their Mom or Dad, or maybe even the whole family. Bob, if you want to do something good for Cub Scouting with that Commission that your so proud of, have the rules changed in some way that allows these little boys to go camping in small groups. Its certainly easier, and more personal for the boys. I for one would do more often if it didnt entail a group of 40-120 people.