Fat Old Guy

"The reference to the ten Commandments was a historical one to show that intent was even considered in God's Laws to Moses. "

Back and fill, Mr. White. Back and fill.

As for scout with the knife, you need to show mens rea. All this kid is guilty of is stupidity.

Wear the campaign hat, it is a legal piece of the uniform. Just don't wear it perched on the back of your head, wear it square. :-)

Very interesting thread.

Bob White may be right that we don't have a right to know but we do have a need to know any medications that Scouts or adults may require to insure the health and safety of the person or others. As Ed said, "what if Johnny can't breath . . ."

Mr. White also commented, "It is unlikely at 1/2 dillution that the tiny amount of red dye would worsen his condition or create a more severe medical condition than he was already in" with one metaphorical breath and with another breath speaks about leaving professional judgements to the professionals. Is Mr. White a physician as well as an expert on caps?

Mr. White also stated, "A physician treating the child needs to know what he is taking, and he's not going to give the child any meds until he talks to the parent first." Mr. White needs to read the health form, it includes a parental permission section for treatment as well as listing of all meds and allergys known to the parents. If the form is meaningless (and no BSA form is ever meaningless) why do we have to complete it?

It doesn't work with your son's group because they aren't really a team. Back when I was younger, faster, and stronger and the coach would make us run extra laps because someone had been dogging it, we blamed the loafer not the coach and took steps to make sure that it didn't happen again.

Teams succeed together and they fail together.

Remember when Roberto Alomar spat on the umpire. The cry was, "Don't punish his team, let him play in the playoffs." Bull.

Hey Bob White, the Ten Commandments cover sins not crimes. Big difference unless you live in Iran.

By the way, assault is not a crime of intent, it is a crime of deed. The deed is making a threat and causing the other person to fear for his safety.

I suppose that you're in favor of the cops monitoring your thoughts. "Mr. White, you had intended to break the speed limit because you're late for work so we're writing you a citation."

" (I know how you prefer the French custom of requesting the honor of informality), "

Not so long ago, it was also an American custom. :-)

In any case, I see nothing in the literature about a duration for a good turn.

Go ahead, offer the tip. Good Scouts should refuse it. If they accept tips they shouldn't be allowed to use the time as Community Service for school or Scouts.

I know a young fellow who is taking a leave from his regular $10/hour job at a local shop to work as a counselor at Summer camp for $100/week. He's giving up $300 a week for two months. Why? Because he's wanted to work at camp since he was a Tenderfoot.

"Check your history. Seaton was not the one lost in the fog.

It was Boyce.(William D. Boyce)"

That's what THEY want you to believe. Just like THEY want to think that a weather balloon crashed at Roswell NM and that microwave towers aren't for mind control. :-)

The best tools for getting boys who weren't Cub Scouts are the Scouts. When they are telling a friend about their weekend of caving, camping or rafting and the friend says, "Dude! That sounds sweet." (or whatever teens are saying this week) the Scout needs to say, "You wanna come with us next time?"

I'm not sure how the legal issues need to be addressed with insurance, etc. BSA should have a policy that covers "prospective members" but I'm sure that they don't. So, you tell the parents that Bobby needs to "register with BSA to be covered by insurance" and they only pay the $10 registration fee. If the kids decides to jump in with both feet then you can deal with whatever the troop wants to charge. Another option is the troop pays the registration fee for the prospective memeber and if he "joins," he pays the usual troop fee with the troop recouping their investment.

Another thing is that the Scouts shouldn't dwell on "how far behind" their friend will be if he joins at 13 or 14 or even 15. The important thing is that he has fun Scouting.

Remember that Scout in the fog with Seaton? He refused a tip because he was doing his good turn.

You could offer a tip but the Scout should refuse it.

FWIW, tipping has gotten out of control in our society. People expect a tip even if they provide poor service. I'm considered outrageous by my friends because I tip poorly for poor service but I also tip very well for good service.

We're faced with a couple of problems here. First we have, as someone else pointed out, Scouts who may have never had or carried a knife before they go to Scout camp. When someone has a new item, he tends to play with it or show it off. Think of what guys do when they first start driving, they drive past the houses of their buddies to show them that they are driving. The same is true of knives, fancy pens, or cell phones; you need to carry one for a while before you get past the infatuation stage.

The other problem is that too many people today (the parents in question are good examples) want every transgression punished with Draconian measures. Get into a fight and you need to be expelled from school. Sneak a beer from the fridge and someone needs to go to jail. It is rather frightening.

The kid showed a lapse in judgement. It could have turned out badly but it didn't. Should it be forgotten? No. The Scout needs to think about his actions and especially about how a tragedy might have occurred. He needs to explain these things to the SM, the other Scout, and the other Scout's parents. Unless a pattern has been shown, nothing else should be done.

"Wait a minute" some will shout, "something bad could have happened." True but we can't punish people for what didn't happen even though that is the way that our society is going. I can't carry my pocket knife on a plane anymore because of something that might happen. The government monitors large cash transactions because you might be a drug dealer.

The parents need to accept the SM's judgement. If they don't like it, they are free to take their son elsewhere.

"However, I can tell you, from years of pouring over scout shop invoices and profit margins, that the BSA doesn't make much money"

That's at the Council level. Have you seen the books for the Supply Division? It isn't too difficult for Supply to sell to the Scout Shops at inflated wholesale prices.

"A Scout is reverent; he is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties and respects the convictions and beliefs of others in matters of custom and religion." This statement makes no exceptions that I can detect.

The first point of the law is a Scout is Trustworthy. To me that also means that a Scout should not tolerate falsehoods. We have already established that my religion is the truth so it follows that other religions must espouse falsehoods. Hence, I have no duty to respect other religions.

When it comes to avoiding issues, I don't hold a candle to you Bob White. Not only did you alter twocubdad's statements, you also ignored his statement that he got nice caps for about half of what you think that a crappy cap would cost. You really do need to find a new supplier.

As for the clever marketing ploy, let's look at the numbers. There's nearly a million Cub Scouts out there, not including Webelos. In olden days, if 50% of them bought a cap at the beginning of their Wolf year, that would have been rougly $5 million in revenue for BSA and they wouldn't need to spend another penny on a cap for two years. Now if that same 50% buys a cap at the beginning of their Wolf year that's $5 million for BSA. The next year, those boys need a new cap but not all of them buy one but let's guess that 50% of the original 50% do, so BSA gets another $2.5 million. Even if production and distribution costs eat up 50% of the revenue that's still $1.25 million per year that they wouldn't have in the old program. Now my figures are intentionally conservative but as I said before I've observed roughly 90% compliance with cap wearing so BSA is actually pocketing much more. Ka-ching!

One last observation -- according to you American and union made justifies a high price for a crappy product. Interesting economic theory.

I saw someting a couple years ago at the Scout Shop that pertains to this discussion. A fellow came in to replace his son's Boy Scout cap because it was brand new and the button on top had fallen off. He tested the button on the replacement cap and it popped right off. He went through all the caps on the shelf, about 20, before he found one that stayed together. That's American made quality and made by union workers to boot.

"Do your best" is a Cub Scout thing. Boy Scouts promise to do their best to do their duty. Big difference.

My son failed the swim test at Webelos camp and his first year of Boy Scout camp. He's struggled and strained to make the distance and managed this year to pass the test. He's underweight for his height, has asthma, takes Adderall and is very uncoordinated.

Not passing the test isn't the end of Scouting. If they want to pass the test and make First Class they'll find a way. If they don't want to pass the test, then they really don't want to advance.

There's boy in my troop that suffers so much anxeity before the swim test at camp that he gets physically ill. He struggles but makes it because he wants to go out in the canoes.

There are public pools, the Y, "the old swimmin' hole," etc. Around my area both the public pools and the Y offer deep discounts for the financially stricken. Lots of places to practice.

" But that member should also realize what is better for them, may not be better for their neighbor."

That boat don't float. I know that my faith is correct just as I know the Earth is round (okay, it is an oblate spheroid but it is roughly round). Why should I have anymore respect for someone who worships dogs or rocks than I have for those who believe that the Earth is flat?

Bob, I see that you don't live by the Scout law. It isn't courteous to call someone by a nickname unless they tell you that you may. I never said that you could call me "FOG." You may address me as Fat Old Guy.

That being said, you like to avoid the issue. Twocubdad said,". . . I don't think the $11.50 price of the Cub hats is unreasonable for a decent hat. But the current hats are of remarkably poor quality." Notice that he said the current hats are of poor quality. That means that he doesn't think that they are worth $11.50.

As for union made. I haven't been a supporter of unions since I belonged to a union and saw the lengths that they go through to obstruct progress. Hondas are made in Ohio by non-union workers and they are far better than any Chevy. I want quality and price, I don't care about unions.

All the uniform items are crappy and non-essential but nearly everyone buys them. At district events most of the Cubs are wearing caps (my SWAG would be 90-95%) that's quite a few bucks in the pocket of BSA.

I can get US made work pants and work shirts for $20 each. Why does BSA charge nearly $40 for each part? Those shirts certainly aren't Pima cotton with single needle tailoring. They lack any of the refinements that a halfway decent dress shirt would have. No yoke, no gauntlet buttons.

BTW Twocubdad, you should take the cap that fell apart back to the Scout Shop. They are supposed to be guaranteed for life.

"Retreat" is a bugle call, not a command. Color guards advance to post the colors and at the end of the day they advance to retire the colors.

"Which program would that be FOG the $2 program or the $12 program?"

You make no sense.

"Rather than accept your guess at what the cost of hats are lets look at a 2003 catalog. I have in front of me the current catalog for one of the major manufacturers in the custom apparel industry."

I just called my local supplier, I can get 12 (minimum order) wool/poly fitted (do you know what that means?) caps with embroidery for $11.56 (plus tax) each. Sounds like you're being ripped off by the "major manufacturer" but I guess he has to pay for all of those catalogs that he mails out.

Come on Bob, stay with the program. I didn't say anything about wholesale, did I? As for $6 wholesale, that's a bit high. I can get a good quality fitted cap with embroidery in quantities as small as 12 for about $12 each. If you're paying $6 for crappy caps in massive quantities, you're being ripped off.

As for optional uniform items, the entire uniform is optional, crappy quality and it is all over priced.

"Are you saying your religion is better than mine?"

If my religion wasn't better than yours, why would I follow it?

Bob is right, the yellow blouse is for Cub Scout leaders or District, Council or National staff who are working with Cub Scout programs. It would be proper for a Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner to wear a yellow blouse when she was doing Roundtable but not when she is functioning as an ASM.

Some claim that the boys want the different caps so people won't mistake them for the wrong rank. I don't know about that. I informally polled the boys in my pack and all but one (46 out of 47) said, "I don't care." All of the Webelos did not like the new cap.

It is a marketing ploy. If only half the Cub Scouts buy new caps every year, that's about $5 million in revenue. Since the caps only cost about $2 to produce, that's quite a bit of profit.

Can one say "values are the purpose"? That's like saying "a car is the purpose of working." It makes little sense.

I would be better stated that "learning values is the purpose of Scouting."

BUT since BSA said "values are the purpose" it must be correct. Right, Bob?

"fun with a purpose"

The purpose is learning.

"Let me get this straight FOG, You have kept 6 scouts who have completed everything for 18 ramk advxncements waiting because some aqdults haven't found the time to do the only parts of the advancement they are responsible for, and your bragging about this?"

I guess that your troop runs differently than mine. We expect the Scouts to schedule their Scoutmaster conferences. It is a pretty simple process, all they have to do is call the SM or speak to him at a troop meeting and say, "When can we do a Scoutmaster conference for xxxx?" These guys just haven't done it. Many other Scouts have advanced and none have required adult intervention.

What book? The insignia guide says nothing about what hats may be worn and the inspection sheet says nothing about the expedition hat, the boonie hat, or the garrison cap.

As a district committee member, I serve no particular program so where does that leave me.

Since nothing expressly forbids the campaign hat for Cub Scouters, it is is by inference permitted.