Engineer61

Known issue in my locale...Oregon must not have noticed.

Found the answer to my own question.... LDS...they are paying part of the damages as well.

I'm curious, does anyone happen to know who the Troop sponsor was?

Oh, I know two political factors that will knock down a few at AOL, depending on where you live.

All of our Hispanic and Buddhist Cubs Scouts ended before or at the first BSA meeting.

The Buddhist's drop on the Oath, while the Hispanics dropped because of the LDS affliations.

"The difference is what would you do for a boss who you didnt respect? Clearly you would do your job as defined, but would you do any more than that? Would you watch that persons back?"

Yes, I would go (and have gone) the extra mile for bad bosses because of what I was taught by my parents is self-respect. I've had 20 or 30 bosses in my career...I'd only say that two of them were really any good at being a boss. There are also professional/ethical issues that prevent me from slacking up just because I have a bad boss.

"If you respected your boss, and he/she demonstrated respect for you, would you be motivated to go above and beyond your job description (self-serving reasons aside)?"

"Would you be inclined to look after that persons interests as you would your own?"

My boss's best interest *is* my best interest.

BUT....let's not forget that in this thread we are talking about children. And in my childhood, no child EVER showed open disrespect for ANY adult without suffering the consequences. Unfortunately for BSA, the teeth have been pulled.

Drop out rate:

My Scout's drop out rate at AOL was 50%. They were all 5th graders...but I expect that to be typical.

No, you cannot push a Scout through Boy Scouts....and quite frankly you shouldn't.

Hi CPAMom,

Just offhand I can think of any number of issues that keep boys out of Scouting.

1) Interest in other activities. (Music, Sports)

2) Tiring of Scouting, by either the Scout or the Parents. BS takes significantly more time commitment than Cub Scouts.

3) Cost....this is the worst economy of my adult life and Scouting can be expensive. (Gear, fees, multiple uniforms, etc.)

4) Demographic issues.

5) Dislike of the "Patrol Method" by parents or the Scouts.

I'm sure there are others, but I don't think there is any one item to point at.

Well, I don't know about y'alls line of work, but if I disrespect my boss, regardless of his level of incompetence, I will be fired for insubordination....and jobs in my field aren't easy to find!

Not to mention the concept of "blacklisting".

Everyone has a boss...I don't care where you live or what you do.

And everyone has to learn to respect bosses....even the bad ones.

In Scouting, there is a chain of bosses...just like the military, and if you don't respect it, you should (as a Scout) expect consequences for your actions, just like in real life.

Now if that consequence is the boot....so be it.

"One of Dirty Harry's greatest lines was, " A man's got to know his limitations." I'm thinking young Scott is rethinking his. "

Agreed, and the fundamental problem is that an 18 year-old boy isn't a man just because he's an Eagle Scout.

That's boy's lucky and the parents should be slapped up side the head.

I give Sherminator.... BINGO!

Idle hands?

It didn't sound like it to me...reality is that you cannot keep everyone busy 100% of the time in a campout environment.

It sounds like there is a lack of parental control...and if there is *lack* parental control, you will have *no* control in a Scout setting.

There are some other possibilities...ADHD being one of them...but I'm inclined to believe that this more the refusal of Mom to pin the boy's ears back.

Sometimes, you have to tear them completely down to rebuild them the right way.

On the topic of Scouting taking a backseat to other activities....I almost never see that.

I have had two scouts on my baseball teams in the past two years. The commitment has always been the same....Scouts first, team second.

Puts a cramp in the game if the Scout happens to be a critical skill position player.

Since my Scout is in no other activity...the only policy we have is school first, Scouts second.

Fortunately, the scheduler for the league I coach in has caught on and no longer schedules games on dates that are occupied with Some-boree events....that has helped some.

On the topic of Scouting taking a backseat to other activities....I almost never see that.

I have had two scouts on my baseball teams in the past two years. The commitment has always been the same....Scouts first, team second.

Puts a cramp in the game if the Scout happens to be a critical skill position player.

Since my Scout is in no other activity...the only policy we have is school first, Scouts second.

Yeah, I'd have to say that Scouting is pretty much the most often scheduled activity in the household (year-round), especially for the age group.

My Scout has one meeting a week and every Saturday and some Sundays he is off either on a campout, Some-boree, or volunteering on someone else's Eagle project.

Of course the wife has a couple of extra meetings a month for Scouts as well.

Cub Scouts was not nearly as loaded.

Of course, when my oldest enter's marching band this fall, he'll be occupied on the weekends and after school. His baseball season, for example, lasts only 12 weeks.

So, here's a question for the SM's, ASM's whoever.

Have you ever had a Scout that didn't enjoy it, and gone to the parents and said,

"Johnny really doesn't want to be in Scouts, and I think it would be better for Johnny if he stopped."

I agree Mike, there is a difference between "reminders" and "pushing".

"So, is it the scouting that does the harm, or the parents who don't understand the program?

I think it's possible to be a combination of both, but largely I expect it to be a parent (and Scout leadership) issue, especially if the kid feels boxed in between the two.

"The issue is making a boy do something he really doesnt have any interest in, no matter what the parents motivation is. The same could be said for sports or a musical instrument."

Agreed...and that is the fundamental point.

"Sometimes I feel guilty of pushing. Every so often I ask my scout son (almost 13) if he still wants to continue with Scouts and he answers yes. I sometimes wonder if he says this just to make me happy, but then he comes in excited about something scout-related so I guess he is sincere. He says he wants to earn Eagle. So while he appears to be interested in Scouting, his attitude sometimes causes me to make sure I question him on his progress. Im happy to say he generally gets things done on his own initiative as it should be."

Maybe the question parents might want to ask is, "Is there something you would like to do other than Scouting?" Giving them the opportunity to replace Scouting with something else that they think of.

My Scout has (so far) not said a single word about wanting to achieve Eagle, or hinted to any excitement about any activity other than Camping and Shooting. For meetings, he is almost always dragging his feet to get out the door and grumbles all the way...and grumbles more when he gets home. None of the project work gets done on his own initiative.

Ironically, both of my boys are also musicians ... both play trombone and both are largely automatic in practicing and participation. The older has been involved in two honor groups as well.

My oldest was flatly not interested in Scouting when I brought it up...he's very much into athletics, but not on a competitive level, strictly recreational. About baseball, he said last night, "If all I wanted was to win, I'd be on a competitive club team. I'd rather have fun at it." I guess that speaks volumes.

I'd tend to side with the physician on this.

And I'll agree with some of the other responses that there may be other underlying issues that you don't know about (and won't know about).

In the end, if the Dr. signs off and the kids get hurt or dies because of something he decided (or was pressured into) overlook(ing), it's his tail in the malpractice sling. He's culpable because he signed off on it.

The ONLY thing I see that the parent can do is find another Dr. I don't see where BSA has any say in the matter.

Thanks for all the other insight folks.

"Oh Engineer61, blame your parents, blame your teachers, you can even blame your little league coach, but don't tell a fellow engineer that cynicism is a result of our profession. "

So, you mean to tell me that the first time your calculations are correct, you're done? Welcome to Apollo I, the Swinging Bridge and the Toyota Prius!

LOL

Well Eagle,

You can complain about my tone, wording, whatever...change the tone to your liking if you like.

My career requires me to be cynical, that should have been obvious from my Username. "Nothing is correct until it is proven to not be wrong..", is what one professor told me. So my tone in writing is most likely never going to be Sunshine, Rainbows, and Care Bears. Guess you'll have to learn to adapt.

And just because I don't necessarily agree with *your* opinion of Scouting does that make my opinion any less valid. Although I have noticed that you immediately discount any opinion that varies even slightly from yours. And those of us in that predicament put up with that from you... Forums are a beautiful thing in that respect.

I've had this problem myself when coaching baseball. In that venue, kids who don't want to be there and don't really pay attention to what is going on, get hurt, sometimes seriously. I don't put that kid at Third Base or Shortstop....

So my fundamental question remains...

Thanks for the feedback ...

So, what do you do about the parent(s) that are pushing their Scout through the program?

You all know the ones....some of you may be them...

So the Scout likes certain aspects of Scouting...camping or hiking for example, but he could care less about badges, leadership, advancement...he's just there to enjoy what he likes and if he picks up a badge or two, then ok.

The parents on the other hand are constantly riding the kid..."Don't you want to keep up with Johnny?", "You only have 3 merit badges this year, Billy has nine."

Of course the Scout has no where to go for help, he can't push back on his parents, and he views all the SM's and ASM's as on the parent's side...gung ho and what not.

Seems like there is a point where Scouting does more harm than good.

After reading this statement in OldGrey's post....

"The COmmittee Chair of the troop is a Pediatrician who thinks that scouting is a fine outlet for the excess energy expened by ADD/ADHD youth."

I am convinced that the above mentioned Peds Doc has absolutely no clue as to what ADD/ADHD actually is. There is no "excess energy" involved in any aspect of ADD/ADHD. ADD/ADHD kids have no more or less energy to expend than other kids.

Wow...I'm lost my 2 cents!

"One cannot lead by being bossy and pushy. I have never seen anyone able to lead while pushing from behind."

Really? Try any branch of the military or any industry at all these days..."you like to eat don't you"...is the phrase of the day.

There are two type of Custody. Physical and Legal.

You have to determine which kind of custody is being referred to...if the Non-Custodial parent still has shared custody (Physical and Legal) then it would be inappropriate for the Troop to prohibit him/her from joining in.

If the Non-Custodial Parent still shares Joint Legal Custody. Then the that parent has all of the same rights as the other parent.

I am more likely to suspect that the Custodial Parent in this case does in fact desire to undermine the relationship between the other parent and the Scout.

Technically speaking, the Custodial Parent may be engaging in Parental Alienation. Trying to undermine the relationship of the other parent by means of influencing the child and other people that frequently interface with the child. This parent is most likely the culprit of many of the activities that is being accused of the other parent.

If I were you, regardless of the participation of the Custodial Parent to this point, would take extreme caution with this Custodial Parent and try to afford access by the Non-Custodial Parent.

Yes....I have lived this.

(This message has been edited by Engineer61)