Eamonn

Trying to answer the question posed by Twocubdad.

The requirements for Eagle are clear.

One would hope if the Adults are doing their part, following the requirements as laid down, there would be little or no question about the standard of anyone reaching the rank of Eagle Scout.

In the district that I serve we have:

A/ The Troops that have almost every boy, who stays the course, becoming an Eagle Scout.

B/ The Troops that due to such a poor program have hardly ever had a member reach the rank of Eagle.

C/ The Troops that have a program, where the boys are busy doing lots of "Stuff" and in the course of a year they might have one or two boys who, make it.

Walk into a meeting of Troop A. Yes the boys are busy working away on merit badges.

I had an "Old Timer" from such a troop tell me that he thought that he was losing his touch, the boys just weren't paying any attention to his merit badge class (He was covering one of the citizen merit badges) I asked how many of the boys had asked to "Do" the badge he said none, they had been informed that that was what they were doing over the next few meetings.

I explained that it was no longer "Their Merit Badge" They had not wanted to do it. It was forced upon them.

Ask the boys from Troop A, to show you any of the skills that they learned on the way to becoming First Class Scouts, and a good many can't do very much. It was something that was done to "Pass" that particular "Test" and never used again.

Needless to say the Patrol Method is unheard of, the adults are too busy herding boys into merit badge classes.

Troops in group B. Are just sad.

The boys in group C. Are having fun, the adults along with the PLC, have managed to come up with a balanced program.

While I think it is unfair to judge a Boy who has reached the rank of Eagle, because he has worked with the adult leadership that was available.

We might want to take a close look at some of the adults.

I keep hearing that the national average for boys reaching the rank of Eagle, is around 4%. I can't help thinking that "Something is rotten in Denmark." When I see Troops with 75% or more. It really irks me when I know for a fact that the program that they are calling Scouting, really is way of base and to make matters worse it Sucks.

Now that I have myself on my soap box, I think that a phone call to the District Commissioner, is in order. While I have little hope for Troops in group A. and think that Troops in group C. Are fine and dandy, we do have to work on group B.

Wow, We seem to have kind of lost the Thread on this one.

As I look around my District and Council, one thing that strikes me is the diversity of our adults. While most of them seem to be white, blue collar types. The real diversity is apparent when you/ I visit a troop meeting.

Some as soon as you walk in, make you want to get the video camera out of the car and start making a Training Video. The meeting is planned the boys are running the show - Kind of a Boy Scout Utopia.

Others, it seems spend every meeting making plans that will never reach any further then the hall that they are in. A lot fall someplace in the middle.

But the boys keep coming back, week after week. I can't pretend to know why.

It is easy for me, to knock these leaders, and make little of what they do. But I'm not the one who gives up every whatever day of the week it is to spend time with these Lads, I may put a lot of time into Scouting, but if there is a meeting that I can't attend, most of the time it's no big deal, and everyone knows that the meeting will be over a little earlier.

I may disagree with Ed, but deep down I feel sure that the kids in Pittsburgh are better off with him there then they would be without him. He is doing his best. And Troop 1, sounds like a really good troop.

jbroganjr, really does have the good of the Scouts first and foremost in his heart,and from reading his postings on different topics, may at times come across as a little brash.

Bob White, does know his stuff and as I have said before, I would love to have him on my district committee.

Would I follow all that he says ? Probably not, well not all the time.

I do however think that what we all bring to this great organization, by far outweighs any differences that we may have.

Yes even if the old shorts get a little chapped.

We as a Council, seem to be a little more then creative when it comes to membership. Maybe I have just become on old stick in the mud, and I'm not moving along with the times.

So I need your input.

What is a pack ?(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

I must have done something wrong. I never got to finish.

Think I will try again later.(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Many Thanks for all your kind words.

I would however like to stress, that this was a really situation that I allowed myself to get caught in.

I broke the rules.

While at this time everything is "Warm and Fuzzy" who is to say that in ten years time this young man isn't going to say that I did something untoward to him. I know that I didn't, but how could I ever prove it.

Please, Please do not allow yourself to make the mistake that I did.

Our Youth Protection Policy is there to protect the youth and the adult. I was dumb, don't let it happen to you.

Ed,

The Camporee was held at Camp Conestoga, Somerset Pa.

As you may know not far from your home ground. We do have a few of our units from Westmoreland Fayette, that every now and then do "Summer Camp" at Heritage Reservation.I have spent a fair amount of time in the "Ryan Homes" attending and presenting Camp School stuff, mainly Cub Scout.

Camp Twin Echo, is a super place in the winter, what with the hills and the snow, the Scouts and at least one old fogie (Me !!) have a grand old time. Have to admit that so far we have always booked a cabin.

A little time back,I attended an Eagle Scout presentation, when it came time for the Scout to say a few words, he recalled his first winter camp at Twin Echo, how the toilet seat was metal. He said how he was scared to sit on it for fear it would freeze to his backside. Man oh man, that was a great presentation. Sad to say the family moved to Maine. From what I hear of the Maine winters, he had better Be Prepared.

Some weeks past I asked for your help planning events for a District Camporee.

Many Thanks for the ideas, the ball in a tube went well as did the one with the two 2X4s.

Sad to say it turned out to be a wet,cold weekend.

One Leader had two scouts whose tent had leaked and everything was soaked, so he left on Sat. Night. This left the troop short of transport for the trip home, and one lad needing a ride.

Yes, but yes I know that I ought not have given the lad a ride. In fact I thought it strange that no one came to pick him up. But faced with leaving him at the camp site or breaking the rules, I made a choice.

He was not very big, in fact I knew that this troop had picked up a lot of Webelos Scouts, in Feb. So I asked if he was going to the junior high next year, it was then that with great indignation he informed me that he was 15.

Now I feel a bit silly.

I ask why his parents have not come to pick him up. He tells me that he is in foster care. Now I feel more then silly. The drive was about 25 mins. During which time I found out that he had spent this past Christmas at the local YMCA, and that he hadn't seen his brothers or sisters in over a year. He then started talking about the camp fire and how great it was.

When he got out of the car, he thanked me for the ride, and said "I know why your the boss, you listen to everyone, no one ever listens to me"

The Good Lord knows, that I'm a big softy, but this almost brought tears to my eyes.

As I drove home, I couldn't help thinking about all the stuff that I had bought my son over the holidays. How OJ, just have to have the new disc player with G - Force ($130.00) And here was a kid that had really enjoyed a camp fire and just wanted someone to listen to him.

While I'm very much aware that everything about this was wrong and I ought not have left my self so wide open. I think it was worth it.

Hey it's not everyday someone tells me that I'm the boss - I must remember to tell Her That Must Be Obeyed.

Jeff, While you might be, and from your posting, sound like a responsible fellow. I have a 15 year old son, who much as I hate to admit it, he just would not be able to keep all the "Stuff" that goes on in the Health Lodge or appears on Medical Forms.

Imagine for a minute that someone he knows has the bedwetting problem ? Or worse.

While we can all think of "Horror Tales" I would think if anyone seen a Scout acting in such a strange way, we would contact the parents PDQ.

Ed,I have done a lot of stuff over the years, some good, some not so good, and some that I'm not very proud of.

But this is the first time ever for me. "Short Chapping !!"

The real question, is not about Phone calls or Phone cards.

My problem is with "We as Leaders make Rules."

If it was the PLC, who made the rule, we are in a different ball park.

But much as many leaders do not like to hear it, you just do not have the right to make such rulings.

As a Scoutmaster, you are there to serve the Troop.

At times we all need to take time and reflect on what our role really is. The idea of Servant Leadership, is not a new one. "Leadership By The Book" Written by Ken Blanchard, is worth the time and does help to put Leadership into perspective.

Ok, I have to admit that I'm not an expert on this.

I have helped write the HIPPA, training guidelines that are used by my employer (UPMC)

As ever I do have some thoughts.

With all respect to BSA470Firstaider,I really am not that keen on Medical Forms, in the hands of anyone who is not an adult.

While I as a parent at this time do not have a problem sharing the medical history of my son, there are situations that I can think of that want me to change this.

I have had a Scouts mother inform me that he was on a medication to prevent bed wetting, he didn't know that she had informed me.

I really had no need to know.

Which brings me back to my rights as a parent.

I did not give up or hand over any of my parental rights, when my son joined the BSA.

As to medical information not being transmitted electronically. Yes the BSA has and does, we only have to look back to the Medical Forms and information used at the last National Jamboree.

While a lot of things might make sense, we do have to be very aware of the fact, that these youths are not our sons and daughters and we can not go over the line.

I had a Scout, this weekend ask me if I had to learn English, or if I had always had an accent.

As some of my posting show, Spelling is not my great strength.

Spelling in American English, without all the extra vowels, takes some getting used too.

Last night I disclosed to the world that, I suffer from being sewing impaired, today I find out that I'm also AEAI.(American English Acronym Impaired)

I will have to watch out for the MIWC (Men In White Coats.)

If one of them is named Robert, does this make him a Bob White ?

If the coat has braces, do I become a man of Steele ?

I had always been given to believe, that all meds had to be handed over to the Leader in Charge, and then given to the youth. Following the instructions.

But have seen that this is not the case.

In fact it would be the wrong thing to do.

I can see that medications that need to be kept under refrigeration, might need to be kept some place where that equipment is located.

I can see why all meds ought to be lsted on the Health Form.

But what is the right way to deal with meds at camp ?

Some where, some place, I have a presentation, that shows how people have changed and how attitudes have changed with different generations.

Needless to say, my generation is the one that questions everything !!

While we "Old Fogies" (Well me at any rate)May not like and at times, may not understand, the things that some of our parents and youth are doing. This is the way things are.

Our Youth do not learn the way we did, and are not taught the way we were.

Yes I remember the small radio, that I smuggled into camp, in order to listen to the then Pirate Radio stations, broadcasting from the North Sea.

Yes I have driven the Scout Van, With a young Scout, who had one of the early Cassette players, with only one tape which he played and played, and it didn't get any better as the batteries grew weaker (The song he kept playing was :Your the one that I want from Greese - I hate that song.)

Yes, I stood behind a little chap, at the Jamboree, he was on the phone telling someone everything - Yes everything, from what he was doing, to what he had for breakfast and how often he had been to the bathroom - All I was doing was trying to do was buy a house.

Yes We nearly missed the only train to Nottingham, because OJ, found an internet phone, and "Had" to check his E-mail.

Yes I was the one who said to the Jamboree Troop, that there would be no CD players, but gave in when the PLC, made a valid arguement for taking them. (I was wrong - It happens !!)

Our kids / Youth, live in the 21st Century.

These Guys and Gals, will not and do not take kindly to rules, that no matter how well intented, do not make sense to them.

One of my pet peeves, is pop vending machines at camp sites. I think that they look ugly and are out of place. Do we really need to have pop available 24/7 ? Ok so I'm not a pop drinker. I can think of lots of valid reasons not to let my Scouts use them.

But I don't have the right.

If we are in the business of helping young people to make ethical decisions, what sort of an example are we setting when we make tyrannical rules ?

"Controlled Risk" Environment !!

I think we lost something in the translation.

Have to admit to not following "Here We Go Again."

However, if it is my son telling you something that in someway impacts him.

You have to remember that he is a minor. He is still under the guardinship, of his parents / Me.

When a youth joins a troop or a crew, I didn't give up any of my rights as a parent.

While you might be the best Leader ever, you really do not know enough about my son, my family, and will only have one side of what has happened or will happen.

You may not like what you hear, it may sound harsh or even unfair, but that maybe the way it is.

If you think that there is abuse, you are obligated to report that.

But the bottom line is "It's not your child."

As a note of interest. At the last World Jamboree, condoms were available. The thinking was that it better that those who chose to have sex, are better off having protected sex then unprotected sex. I wasn't there, but I have been informed that female Scouts outnumbered the males: 51% female.

I have discussed these matters with my son. We are Catholic, and agree that the safest sex is abstinence.

As a person who is "Sewing Impaired", the stuff that ends up on my uniform shirts, is at times dependant on the mood of "Her That Must Be Obeyed" and if I'm in the good graces or not.

I think that the shirt count is either 21 or 22.

All have the World Friendship Patch, all have our Wagion Lodge Flap, and the Westmoreland Fayette Council Ordinary Council Patch (We have Patches with one word of the Scout Law on. Which are "Awarded ?" For a donation of $100.00 or more)

Most have the current District Office Patch.

Most have the District Award of Merit Patch and the Silver Beaver, along with the Adult Religious Award Patch.

None have the James E. West Patch.

Four have Nine Knots on each, three rows of three.

The Red Wool Jacket has a 1975 World Jamboree Patch on the back, and will one day when I'm in the good graces have the Philmont Bull.

I always wear my beads.

I disike hats, but do have two Campaing hats. Which I used for Wood Badge.

Have to admit that there is a small Heinz Pickle Pin on the collar of the Red Jacket, it has been there for a long time, I don't know why.

I wil at times wear the shirt that best fits the circumstance, but most often will wear the one at the top of the pile.

My feelings on this is "If you have earned it and are entitled to wear it - Go For it."

My Big Question is: Where do we get off making rules ?

Who and what gives us that right ?

Not trying to start anything but....

Seems to me that there is a lot of people making sets of rules.

Who and what gives them that right ?

As a parent, I choose to give my son a phone.

As a parent, I pay the bill.

As someone involved in Scouts and Scouting, I know of no rule that says that this is wrong, or that a Scoutmaster can over-rule, my dealings with my son.

Me thinks that if someone said something to OJ, I would have to very nicely tell him/her to stick it in his or hers ear.

It has been a while since, I have been a "Real" Scoutmaster. So I'm looking at this as the Dad of a Scout.

OJ, has a cell phone, which he takes with him everywhere. There are rules at School as to when and where he is allowd to use it. He does take it to Scout Events,camps and outings. As far as I know this has never been a problem. He does allow other Scouts to use his phone.

From what I see He is a lot more polite in his phone usage, then a lot of adults, that I might name.

He has also taken his laptop to camp - I'm not sure why ?

I did notice the other weekend at a development weekend for JLTC, which he is staffing, that he was taking notes on his laptop.

My old Troop back in London, England, was one of the early London Troops, started in 1909. As far as I know, things went along ok, for many years, your normal troop with times of high membership and times when things looked very gloomy.

There are no chatered partners in the UK. So over time the troop moved, from meeting in church halls, and for a while met in the Scoutmasters garage.

When World War 2, broke out most of the adults went to serve in some branch of the service.They did manage to keep the troop going, and kept everyone in touch via a troop newsletter. All the members came home, except one. This poor chap died in a Japanese prisoner of war camp.

The troop committee met, and decided that there ought to be a memorial. And what better then our own scout headquarters.

They worked their tails off raising money.

In 1966, the Scout Headquaters was dedicated to the memory of William Burnthwaite.

But now there was the upkeep of the building, so they kept up the fund raising, but now they could use the hall to help bring in the much needed money. This brought about the birth of the Bingo Committee and the Olde Time Dance Committee. The Hall was also rented out every sunday to the Jehovah Witnesses, along with the odd Wedding Reception. Now the money was rolling in.

As a Scout in the Troop, I was proud that we always had the best equipment and we were the only troop with two mini-vans.

Things were not so great when I became Scout Leader. I felt that this was the Scout Headquarters, the Bingo Committee and Old Time Dancers, started thinking it was their Hall, and the Jehovah Witnesses complained about the Scouting Posters on the wall and the Flag. There I was with this great Scout Headquarters, which I wasn't able to use for Scouting, due to the fact that everyone else was using it. To make matters worse, as the "Old Committee" grew older they started to resent the amount of money that was being spent on the boys.

The Scout Headquarters is stll there to this day, sad to say now showing signs of age. It is in a very trendy part of London, a part where the value and price of property has skyrocketed.

Most of the people who now live there do not have kids. The parks, where I played on the swings and on the Scoccer field, no longer have Swings or Soccer fields. And there sits the "Scout Hall" Worth over $5,000,000.00. Yet it is struggling to survive, due to lack of Scouts.

Iam a trustee of this building, and if something can't be done to keep Scouting alive and keep the Scout Group running, it will be sold and the money will go to the Scout Association.

I don't know if this is too much money. I don't even know if 40 years of service, is a fair return for all the time, effort and hard work these people put in. It took 20 years to build it. I do know, that thanks to them, I had the best time any Scout could ever have had.

To try and answer Buffalo2.

Yes Sir,I was a little bit "Over The Top"

I had just taken on the position, and followed the really nice guys. In fact it was a Lady. There wasn't one Unit Commissioner, under the age of 65, most were over 70. All these were super people, who had not been doing the duties of the position that they held.

In fact many of them, looked upon it as a job in title only.

Some due to age, were unable to drive at night. Some were so out of touch, that they were giving out misleading and wrong information. Most had held the title for many years.

It is really hard to "Fire" these lovable old folks. However, they had to go.

The Patch idea, was to get everyone used to the idea that they served, the district and the council.

The one year term, was to let them know that this was not a lifetime appiontment.

I didn't take on the idea of letting them "Go" without much thought and reflection.

I thought about it long and hard, and kept coming back to the end user - Our Youth.

They were doing nothing for the units, that they were to serve, and were in fact making it impossible to bring new people in.

The then District Chair. Made many of them Members of the District At Large. He is /was kinder then me. Most have now been dropped from the District Charter, I still have one, who was my brother-inlaws Den Mother (He is almost 50) Serving as the District Boys Life Promoter. Some are still on the Merit Badge List.

What is a real shame is that there is no Real Place for them to go.

Or is there ?

We had a Council President, who thought that we needed a Council name change.

I have no idea why - Maybe that's what keeps the Council President awake at night?

There was some talk that the people from Fayette were upset, that we weren't Fayette Westmoreland, which would have been alphabetatically correct.

We went as far as sending out a paper asking for sugggestions, the six replies did not cause very much excitement !!

The cost of changing so many Flags, patches, letter head, did cause a stir.

Still,I'm finding it hard to put myself in the shoes of the person who is offended.

If we are to give true meaning to a Safe Haven, we have no choice but to change.

When I took on the District Chairman position / Job. I said that unless things went wrong,that I wanted to do the job for 3-5 years.

As District Commissioner, I used to make a big deal of presenting each and every Commissioner his or her Commissioner patch. I paid for the patch, and informed them that it was my patch, which I could ask to be returned. I also explained that the position was only good for one year at a time.

What do you think about Term Limits for other positions ?

How long should you do one job ?

Is it unfair to say "Ok, thanks, but your time is up."

And where do you put a commissioner who after years of service, is just no longer up to the job? He or She, has no unit to fall back on.

Do we stick to the idea, that the Boys /Youth must have the best possible service, and these people have "Outlived their usefulness" ?

What about the 80 year old Scoutmaster ?

Are we keeping him because he is great with the boys ? Or because he has been there forever ?

Just Thinking/ Asking.

Your Thoughts and Ideas ?

We had something called Marmite, which sounds like the same thing. You spread it on hot toast.

Then there is /was Bovril, which you add boiling water to.

Both of these look like used motor oil.

However the one that I think takes "The Cake", was the Prune Soup given to the troops at Nordjamb. Even the London kids raised on Jellied eels and mash,passed on that one.

This may sound kind of odd.

The Troop that I was in as a Scout, (and later as the Scout Leader, for eleven years)was a fantastic Troop.

At that time in London, there wasn't a lot of choice. There was Scouts, The Boys Brigade, or the Boys Club. The Boys Brigade was a lot of marching and play music. I did play the trumpet, and mastered "God Save The Queen" but it wasn't really my thing. The Boys Club, was all about boxing. I could get the heck beaten out of me at school, I didn't need to let someone do it fun!! And there was Scouts, I was a Wolf Cub, went all the way to Leaping Wolf, and joined the troop.

At about this time English Scoutin was undergoing a major shake up. Everything was changing: The Scout Law, went from 12 laws down to seven, the promise changed, so did the uniform, advancement requirements. We lost a great number of adults, and some of those that stayed on, really didn't get it and sure as heck didn't like it. My Scout Leader (That was another change Scoutmasters became Scout Leaders.)was one of them. But we had six super Assistant Scout Leaders.

Being a Scout in the 17th Fulham (Pioneers) was a full time commitment.

The first Monday of each Month, was the PLC,

Tues, was free, the Leaders had district and Troop committee meetings.

Wed, was games night.

Thurs, was swimming.

Fri was the troop meeting.

We camped all the time, at least two weekends a month, over all the holidays from Easter on till September, with a two week summer camp.

Summer camp was all over the place, one year in Ireland, a lot of the time in Holland, also in France.

So what trait stands out ?

The Time That These Guys Gave To Me.

Not one of them had a son in Scouting.

Bob,while I agree with the entire idea that a commissioner, unlike most "active" leaders,is a person who holds a commission from the Council. By the fact that all Commissioners are "Selected" by the Council Executive Board, and are not selected by a chartered organization.

I'm not clear of the meaning of :

" Commissioners may be currently registered in only one commissioner position."

In my district we have 42 units and a commissioner staff of 26. All of our Assistant District Commissioners, also act as unit commissioners.

Are we out of line ?

A Scoutmaster, friend of mine tells the story of how, one of his patrol leaders came to him boasting, that he had mastered the art of pooping in a plastic bag.

Jeff, the Scoutmaster went on to say how great this was but asked "How do you get rid of it?"

"Oh I burn it" replied the Scout.

"Not on your Patrol cooking fire ?" Asked Jeff"

"No, don't be dumb, - On one of the other Patrols!!"

I'm not sure if this is Leave No Trace, or

Don't get Caught ??