Eamonn

My thoughts for what they are worth.

For any new unit to have half a chance of surviving it needs a good solid foundation.

In Scouting the foundation comes in the form of people. - A group of people who will work together to get things started and hang around at least for a couple of years until the unit can bring more interested adults in.

A lot of times DE's and members of the District Committee will want to see a new unit listed as started that they rush things through. Which is a big mistake because when the unit fails not only do they no longer have the unit but have also lost the boys and the adult volunteers.

Starting a new Troop with just a Den of Webelos can and does work.

One of the better Troops in the area where I live started with a Den of these little guys about 12 years back. Like most Troops they have had peaks and valleys. They are now on the third SM.

They started with a group of adults some who took on as leaders and others who were willing to support the Troop as Committee members.This meant that even with the high turn over of SM's that the Committee was there and willing to do what was needed to ensure that the Troop survived.

If you really do think that there are not enough interested adults and you are going to be for the most part a one man band? Then maybe starting a new unit isn't the best idea.

We all want to do the best we can to serve the youth we have. The Lads we know and see week in and week out. - There is nothing what so ever wrong with that. Scouting works and has worked because adults over the years have worked with and cared for the Lads who are there.

But when it comes down to starting a new Troop, the picture changes a little, it becomes more about working for the youth who are not there and maybe are not even born yet. - This then becomes all about the strong foundation and roots that the Troop has.

Mulling things over is a good thing.

Much as I hate to fall into training lingo. Mulling gives you the opportunity to come up with a vision think about goals and all that other good stuff.

As your mulling you might also want to ask yourself "What do I want to do?" -"What am I good at?"

If you really want to work with the youth members and be a hands on leader? Maybe starting a new Troop is not the best idea?

Maybe thinking long term you might want to get some time in working with Boy Scouts, find out what works and what doesn't, develop some of the skills that maybe you don't have and work with a more experienced group of Boy Scout leaders and Committee members.

There are Troops around that are very successful that have started out with a Den of Webelos Scouts and a couple of willing adults. If that'd what you believe is what you want to do and you believe will work? Please don't allow my thoughts to dampen your enthusiasm's.

I wish you nothing but the very best and all the luck in the world.

Ea.

Scoutfish,

For the record when it comes to this singing thing, I agree with you.

But..

I do worry a little that some of us? All of us? Or maybe just me?

Run the risk of maybe "Over thinking". Some of this stuff.

Ea.

I was tempted to post my views on these Strategic plans without watching the video.

I'm not a great lover of these plans. Mainly because they seem more like a wish list, than anything else.

This time it does seem like something is really going to happen.

My thinking is that as an organization we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

On one hand we have the youth, who if the truth were to be told really don't know what they want and seem to tire very quickly of things that they think they want.

On the other hand we have an organization, steeped in history, not wanting to upset or annoy anyone.

Like it or not, I kinda think that the falling membership numbers do show that something isn't working and a fix is needed.

Chances are that when the fix does come some will love it, some will hate it and some will just be happy complaining about it.

As I watched the video, I couldn't help but think of myself standing in the UK Scout Shop about ten years back, looking at the then new program material for then updated program.

It was all there. The common themes and activities based on these central themes that ran all the way through all the sections.

I kept asking asking myself as I watched the video "Is this hype and talk just that and are we going to end up with a copy of what they have in the UK?"

The "Window Dressing " For this plan seems to have fallen back on what old folks like me might think is cool the use of the number 11? Might be a little over the top?

A change is needed. How it will be received? - I don't know.

Still I'm happy to see that something is being done and no matter what, it beats doing nothing.

Eamonn

Not sure that I'd ever want to be king of anything.

Me being me still allows me the opportunity to tell someone what I really think, something I'd lose were I to become king.

Like many others I'm guilty of having pet peeves. - In my case a fair number of them.

Of course because I claim ownership of them , I tend to think that they are right, because I don't like being wrong.

As some forum members might have noticed, I'm not a great fan of Venturing as it is set up at present. I do firmly believe that there is a need for a program for older youth, but what we have now is just a mess.

I never have had any time for LFL this in my book is just a drain on Council resources and only serves to make membership numbers look good. I'm not even sure if the youth that receive the program get that much out of it. I have presented career talks to large groups of school students as part of our Council LFL program and I really don't see it being worth the schools buy in amount.

I'd dearly love to see Councils make the finical statements follow some kind of reporting standard that could be understood by people outside of the BSA.

What we have in place now looks like something is being hidden and when there is mismanagement makes it hard to find, even for people who work in this finance area.

Think it's time we took a real hard and honest look at the age grouping.

I think they could be better if they were changed, but what do I know?

I'd love to see an end to the colored loops.

There are no ranks of adult leadership in the BSA, these silly loops make it seem like there is. I don't care where you serve, I'm just thankful that you do.

While we are at it, lets keep Wood Badge beads down to just two (Yes I know that I wear four. -But only to keep my pals off my back!)

Much as I don't want to be king.

I think if I were I'd want to try and make everyone see that this Scouting game isn't rocket science. More and more I can't help but think we are making something that is not that hard really complicated.

Take a Lad, Look for ways of having fun remember why we are doing what we do and then do it.

Sure having some skills helps, but if a 12 year old can master them, I'd hope that most adults ought to be able.

It can't be that hard.

Eamonn.

(And give Ireland back the six Counties!!)

Re the Knots:

While I do think that they do act as a carrot for some adults. Still, as far I'm concerned it's not a big deal if they remain or if they go.

The DE's?

Scouting in the UK has managed without an army of professional Scouter's, but that's over there and we are over here.

I haven't kept up to date with what a DE is paid.

I'm thinking it's about $35,000. Add a benefit package and the cost has to be in the $44,000. Range. (Feel free to disagree and correct me!)

That number is never going to go down.

With the ever declining membership coming up with the funds to pay a DE is becoming harder and harder and he or she will end up spending most of their time just trying to raise the money needed to ensure that they get paid.

I have a few very dear and close friends who work as professional Scouter's. I think the world of these guys.

Still in my book when it comes to anything to do with program or volunteers.

Volunteers should and are better served when they deal volunteer on volunteer.

If things are going as they should at the District level with a good active working District Committee then there really no need for a DE.

But good active working District committees are not the norm.

It's all fine and dandy to have great on line training's and beautiful publications but someone (A real person.) Needs to be tasked with looking at the wants and needs of each and every District and taking steps to ensure that they are up to doing the job of the District Committee.

This might mean having a Executive Board Member sit in on District Committee Meetings and ensuring that things get done right.

National might want to take a long hard look at the training's available for District Committees and revise and update these.

Councils might want to rethink any term limits that they have in place and set these so they work. The three year term we have in our Council is not long enough. I think it should be five years for District Chairmen.

Eamonn

moosetracker

Like it or not.

There is in most Districts an "Expected" level of donation.

If you are wise, you will not allow yourself to be drawn into this, what can only be called fools errand.

A few pages back I gave an outline of why I think pestering our volunteers for money is worthless waste of time.

If you really want to make a difference join the District Finance Committee and set about making a list of people who can and might be willing be donate large amounts of money.

Do not share this list with the DE or any of the pros. Do not mention James E.West.

Ask the DE what the District Goal total is.

After you have your list select who will do the "Ask"

Think big.

Not so long back a little fellow from my church stopped by saying that the church needed help paying to heat the church and the school, he asked for $50.00.

I gave him what he asked for, but if he'd asked for $1000.00 I still would have given him what he asked for.

If you can bring in the money that meets the District goal without having to pester the District volunteers then you will be a real hero!

Ea.

A few years back thanks to some very serious financial mismanagement things didn't look that great in my neck of the woods.

A special Executive Board meeting was called to discuss the sale of the only camp site that the Council owns. The other is leased from the State,

Almost all the board members made it to the meeting. So many in fact that the venue had to be changed to accommodate the number.

As dinner was being served I asked the wait staff to give me a head count.

Not counting the pros and the office staff we had a total of 63 Board members.

I looked around the room and tried to count how many of these people had ever been to the camp.

I counted eight.

The discussion started numbers were given. How many units used the camp how much it cost, the income from the gas well.

I got up and said if each of us then and there wrote a check for $6,000.00 the problem would go away or if half of us were willing to go $10,000. There would be no need to sell the camp.

The room fell very quiet five people offered to join me in donating $10,000.

It's a real shame when Scout Executive Boards are made up of people who are supposed to be "Money Men" but when asked to put their hand in their pocket their arms get very short.

In the end we borrowed the rest of the money from our endowment fund and didn't sell the camp.

Eamonn

strider

Welcome to the forums.

There are are of course different courses for different horses.

If you find YP scenarios helpful. More power to you.

Long before the BSA made the wise move to put all this stuff on line I was tasked with having to present it.

A lot of times I kinda felt a little bit like Goldie Locks.

While of course I didn't want anyone to ignore all the important and good information and follow the guidelines. I at the same time didn't want to scare the living daylights out of them so that they would be afraid to ever do anything.

Youth Protection needs to be done just right.

What is just right?

While most times, following the good book is for the best and will never lead you astray. There are however times when you will have to think for yourself doing what the situation requires and what is best for the everyone concerned.

I once had the great misfortune to spend a week at the Philmont Conference Center with a female Council Commissioner who wanted to make everything a YP issue. By the end of the the week my feelings toward her could have made it a adult protection issue.

Youth Protection has served us well.It has made us more aware of a lot of situations that can or could be seen as harmful, it has help reduce the cost of Scouting.

I'm not sold on it protecting youth. At best maybe it has made it more difficult for the people who are determined to do harm to our youth.

Protecting our kids from determined perverts is more about training our kids than expecting the perverts to follow a book of guidelines.

We live in strange times, it's important that we do what is needed to protect ourselves, not just from what happens today, but also from what might happen twenty or more years down the road. The last thing I want in my old age when I'm enjoying my glass of Ensure is for some 32 year old to come along and say that Eamonn abused me.

Right now my reputation and good name is such that I very much doubt if anything would stick, but in twenty years time?

Still with a good dose of common sense I don't believe that YP has to be something that needs to be a constant worry and not anything I'd want to take a quiz on.

But as I say there are different courses for different horses.

Eamonn

More tech savy?

With no disrespect intended to anyone.

I have to say that I worry a little bit when anyone says that we need to be more anything.

More outdoor oriented. More concerned about the boys. More involved with youth protection and so the list goes on.

Sometimes it is kinda like the guys who know all about fine wine.

The swirl it, they sniff it, they talk about it having a good nose and under-tones of this and that and a fine full body then they taste it and spit it out.

In the real world us real people hand over fifty dollars buy a bottle of what we hope will be a decent bottle of wine take it home and enjoy it.

I do not consider myself to be tech savy.

I do have a lot of the toys. The lap-tops, an I-pad an I-pod and a desk top.

What is really missing is the desire. The yearning to really want to do more the feeling that doing more is important.

The real truth is for me it just isn't.

We can go on about how the Scouts have all this stuff, but again the truth is very few have, they just can't afford it.

While the parents who work with or in the computer area are savy, in my neck of the woods the savy are very few.

They are fine with email but send them a word document and they are unable to open it.

They don't know what a pod-cast is.

So before we get ahead of ourselves lets remember who we are working with.

Eamonn

Have to say that when it comes to Scouts and Scouting the word "Important" Leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

The most important position to fill is the position that is vacant.

Scouting is very much a team game.

While maybe in soccer the center foreword might get a lot of the glory, the team still needs a good goal keeper.

But just for the heck of it.

Over the years I've seen units where the CO other than signing off on the charter once a year and there have been times when I've wondered if even that signature is real? Plays no part in the life of the unit.

These same units are very much a one man show. One man who does it all. He hand picks the committee members, selects the Chair. Calls the meetings if and when he feels like it.

While everyone knows this is not what the good books say how to do things. All to often this guy is loved by the members of the unit, the unit does well.

Sure, it might not have a lot of time for the District, will tell the Council where to go with its FOS and popcorn. But when it comes to membership and earned advancement you can't find fault.

The big problem comes when this one man band steps down.

Filling his shoes is next to impossible.

While maybe I'm thinking of a couple of guys that I know of, the truth is this happens a lot more than we are willing to admit.

Eamonn

In the "Real World" I've been around a bit.

Starting off teaching English History at what here in the States would be at the high school level.

I found out fairly quickly that my love of English History wasn't shared by the kids I was trying to teach. Went back to school and became a chef. Found out I was good at it. Cooked for a few very important people, worked in some of the better hotels in London, then went on to become an area manager for a big food service company, moved to the USA. Worked for a while then bought one then two restaurants of my own. Went back to school and became a Registered Dietitian. Thought I'd try and retire but got very bored so went back to work for the department of Corrections as an instructor and member of the Hostage Negotiation Team. (A job I really love.)

I think I first learned to cook as a Scout.

I also think Scouts and Scouting gave me lots of opportunities to care and work with others.

As a Scout I seen both good and bad communication at work.

While of course parents, school, friends and a lot of other things went into making me the person that I am today.

I do however like to think that my trying to live the oath and the law has helped me a lot.

Eamonn

Wow!

Seems like a lot of fuss over a an ice cream bar!

I know and have met a lot of first class twits but even the best of these couldn't classify this as being cruel.

So you can rest easy, the paddy wagon isn't on the way and your not going to be taken away in hand-cuffs.

I'm not sure how I'd go about this?

But that doesn't matter.

You have been doing it for a good while with no problem, the Scouts don't have a problem but a Committee Member does.

This Committee Member is of course entitled to his or her opinion and you being the open minded nice person that you are will of course take the time to see what it is that is being said, weigh the pros and cons look at the merits of his or her fine words then in as nice a way as you can remind her or him that you take care of program and as a Committee Member his or her role is in administration and to go away and annoy someone else.

Eamonn

I hate this wide screen!

As you might know at one time the English outlawed the Irish language in Ireland.

It is said that the best English is spoken by the people from around parts of Dublin.

My parents studied Irish at school as a second language, but couldn't really speak it it.

The people in the west of Ireland didn't have to put up with as much English interferences, so the Irish language wasn't hurt as badly there.

A couple of years back HWMBO and myself spend a couple of days on the Aaron Isles. It seemed strange to be so close to home and have people chatting away and us not being able to understand a word.

I did buy a really nice sweater. Not as nice as the ones that my Mum used to knit, but close.

Eamonn

Had to renew my English passport.

Not really a big deal.

Not sure why it costs about $100.00 more than a U.S. Passport? But everything in England seems to cost a lot more.

When I was done I took the on line survey to help improve the experience and complain about the cost!

Near the end of the survey there were the questions that deal with demographics.

I was OK saying I was a male, but then the drop down what ever it's called for race dropped down.

Listed first was White listed second was Irish-English.

I'd never seen that before!

There was no "Mutt" listing.

Eamonn.

If you were to ask my son what he is?

He would reply that he is an American.

If you were to ask my wife or myself what our son is we both would say that he is an American.

He isn't Irish- American or Anglo-American.

Just an everyday plain no hyphen needed or required American.

At one time we, his Mother and myself had this silly idea that when he got old enough he could or would choose what he wanted to be. But that was soon pushed aside and forgotten.

I'm really happy that he knows what he is.

It's something that I never really knew and still don't.

As far as we know and can work out both sides of my family have been Irish for many, many hundreds of years.

I was born in England, was educated in England talk with an English accent, but was raised Irish.

This is hard when your a kid in England.

It's also hard for an English kid in Ireland.

For a very long time it seemed to me as if no place was home.

One year when I was a teenager I went to Ireland to watch my cousin play in the All Ireland Final I was proud to see my cousin turn out in the Meath colors but if the truth be told I had no idea of the rules of Gaelic Football. Maybe if he'd been playing cricket?

I strongly believed and still believe in a United Ireland.

But it was hard being Irish in London when the IRA were blowing things up.

It was hard sitting in a pub trying to avoid the people who were collecting money for the IRA.

These people were strong in their believe.

They didn't want to hear about another cousin of mine that was a member of the regular Irish Army who while patrolling the boarder was killed by a bomb left by the IRA.

It would be a cold day in Hell before I gave them a halfpenny.

After a little more than half a century I've decided that I'm OK being a mutt.

I may have been born in England but I'll get my own back, God willing I'll die in Ireland.

The good thing is my son doesn't have to worry about any of this. He knows that he is an American.

Still I wonder about the kids who have parents who hail from other lands.

The BSA wants to reach out to these kids.

I'm not sure what the best way to do this is?

My son knows about his heritage. He knows how proud I am of it. I have never tried to force it on him or try to make out that it's better over there than it is here.

Heck if it's so good there, what the heck are we doing here?

Is it wrong to expect these kids to be Americans?

Or will they always need the hyphen?

As my dear sainted Irish Grandmother might have said:

Arh-shr Saint Peter himself would be smiling.

Ea.

Peregrinator

Much as I hate to be contrary.

You are wrong!

Back in the day there were twelve pennons to a shilling and 20 shillings to a pound.

While at one time the penny was indeed silver. -Back in 1344!

1544, a silver coinage was issued containing just one third silver and two thirds copper. It has gone down and down!

The 'Bloody Code' Ran in England from the late 17th century to the early 19th century.

Five Shillings is twenty-five pence in todays decimal currency.

At todays exchange rate it would be about 40 cents (I was wrong)

It's kinda hard to say what five shillings might be worth today?

My best guess is about $60 -$75.

Ea.

Here we go again!

Discipline? That word again.

I kinda like what Barry posted:

" I would then ask scouts how such an action fits in the Scout Oath and Law? I wouldnt give the scouts time to answer, but would follow with another question that if a boy is willing to do this against his brother scouts, who else and what else is he willing to do to other people outside that troop? Then I would ask if anyone wanted to volunteer to help me clean up the box to please talk to the SPL."

But I'm unsure if it really fits the heading "Discipline"? As a Lad who wasn't guilty of anything might volunteer.

Discipline is so often just another word for punish or punishment.

Trying to get punishment right is really hard and most times never really works.

Not that long ago back in England anyone caught stealing anything worth more than five shillings, about 14 cents could be hanged.

Thieves in some places can have a hand chopped off.

I spent a fair amount of my youth wasting time writing out lines, "I will not talk in class, I will not talk in class, I will not talk in class" - You get the idea.

By the time my son hit the planet Time Out was in. He did something that upset his Mother,he sat in time out. He got caught with a knife at school he was suspended for three days.

Young offenders get sentenced to community service. Even convicted felons in the area where I live can be seen picking up litter along the side of the highways on weekdays on weekend you see Boy Scouts doing it.

I work in a correctional facility. Just about all the guys who get out say that they are never coming back. But I'm at the stage where I'm no longer surprised when I see familiar faces. Seems to me that something didn't work?

Punishment? Discipline? Is really hard.

I have yet to see in any BSA publication where it is the role or the responsibility of any youth member to discipline or punish another youth member.

When you use the word punish in place of discipline it really does seem more and more like a not so good idea.

I think if I were the SM and found out who the guilty party was, I'd ask him or them what they thought they needed to do to put things right?

Eamonn

Have to admit to being very much like a kid in a candy store.

The last thing I bought was and is always the coolest until the I buy something new.

My office used to be just across the road from Gander Mountain and I spent a lot of time there leaving a fair amount of my hard earned cash.

"Cool"? Is kinda like beauty very much Dependant on what your doing and what your used to.

Boots have come a long way.

I remember back home buying army surplus boots that weighed almost as much as I did.

My old old Blacks of Greenwich down filled sleeping bag lasted years, now I have six or seven bags that I can use depending on the weather and what I'm doing.

I've always loved Swiss Army Knives and feel lost without mine.

Teflon coated light weight cooking pots are great.

But maybe the coolest thing that I use the most is my Goretex rain gear.

I use it for camping hiking and walking the dogs.

I remember the days when I was dry on the outside but soaked on the inside.

I paid what I thought was a small fortune for it but it was worth it.

Ea.

I have met a couple of people who are no longer active but do seem to read what's going on. I this because of the emails they send me.

There are a few forum members from that big Council next door that one of these days I feel sure I'm bound to run into.

There is one member that used to work in that Council who I think I might have met or at least been in the same room as.

One year I'm going to make it to the Celtic Festival that they have in OGE neck of the woods, not sure I'll manage any haggis? But I'm good for a couple of traditional Irish songs.

If OGE is into eating a haggis, I'll be there for moral support.

Ea.

Think that I've posted this before.

No one seemed to know for sure when the 17th started.

There was a lot of talk about it being an "Early" London Troop.

But it seems along the way there was a few Troops that joined and closed and who was who? Was always in question.

The Troop /Group never wanted to be tied in any way to a church. It did over the years meet in various church halls.

During world war two the Cub Master held a very important job in a London hospital and wasn't allowed to serve in any of the armed forces. He started a news letter that he sent out to all the Scouts and Scout Leaders who were serving.

One member of the 17th was caught by the Japanese and died in a Japanese POW Camp.

After the war the members decided that they wanted a memorial for this fellow and they came up with the idea of building their own Scout HQ.

They set about raising the money.

William Thompson Memorial Hall had its official opening in 1967.

The building was a basic brick building on four city lots.

The people who raised the money had such a good time they didn't want to quit so they kept going plus they now had the hall that they could use.

They started running bingo every thursday night, dances once a month and the money just kept rolling in.

For a long time up until the fellow who was my Scout Leader the Troop wasn't that big. My S/L set the tone for spending some of the money and I followed his fine example.

For a while it did seem very much like it was "Them" and "Us" But once they understood that without a Scout Group everything else would be lost they softened their outlook a lot.

Ea.

Back in England I spent most of my time in one Scout Group the 17th Fulham (Pioneers).

I had been a Wolf Cub in another Pack /Group however when things changed in the late 1960's early 1970's the adults in that group said that they weren't up for the change.

I was a Scout, a Venture Scout helped for a while with the Pack and then went on to become Scout Leader in the 17th. I was Scout Leader for almost 12 years and the guy before me was my Scout Leader served for over 20 years.

There had been one Group Scout Leader since world war two when he died in the mid 1970's the Cub Scout Leader who had been there just as long replaced him.

I left in 1984 and at that time he was still serving as GSL (Group Scout Leader.)

The Group always had a Pack and a Troop but the Venture Unit was a lot less stable.

While there was Commissioners, County Commissioners, District Commissioners and Assistant District Commissioners there really was no such thing as Commissioner Service.

The Group Scout Leader acted a lot of the time as a home grown Unit Commissioner.

Very much the go to guy when I had a problem.

I'm not sure about other Scout Groups? But our Group Committee did not have any active Scout parents on it.

Once a month the section leaders would attend the committee meetings and report how things were going membership, advancement and ask for anything that they needed.

I brought Pete our Troop QM and he gave a report on the state of the equipment and the vans.

Our Committee tended to know everyone or know someone who knew someone and were able to get things done.

They never really got involved with what the program was other than chastising me every now and then about the number of broken light bulbs and the state the Scouts left the bathrooms in.

They had a deep love for the Group like a devoted fan has for his team even though they didn't have a player on the field.

We did have a number of Scouts transfer from other Scout Groups and this was seen as a big no, no! Almost like they had left a family.

I spent almost 16 years with the 17th maybe if I hadn't moved across the pond I might still be there today.

The group was a very important part of my life and played a very big part in making me what I am today. I leave it to others to judge if that's a good or a bad thing.

Ea.

HWMBO is asleep in bed.

I'm thinking that maybe I might put some ice down her neck.

No!

I'm not really.

But just for a minute let's pretend that I was.

What would I be guilty of?

Nothing.

Why? Because nothing happened.

Before we start brandishing words like Hazing, lets bear in mind that something has to happen for someone to be hazed.

A prank has to happen for someone to be pranked.

The title of this thread doesn't deal with the question that was asked.

The question was: I am wondering if I should ask the older Scouts about it...

Suggestions?

If I were in your shoes I would have a quite word with the older Lads and make them aware that I was born at night, but not last night!

As acting SM I'm relying on them to help me out as much as possible but to that end there will be no shenanigans.

Ea.

Let me see..

No I don't think the idea of breaking " hundreds of thousand of dollars of picture windows in businesses along the downtown streets of Seattle in deliberate and entirely unprovoked attacks" Is a good idea.

But then again I also think that dragging down the good name and credit rating of this country is a bad idea.

At the end of the day who did the most harm to the greatest number of people?

Ea.

Before everyone starts beating themselves up it is worth remembering that the oath does state "To do my best to..."

Ea.