Eagle92

Something would arise from the ashes. BP Scouts wold gain notoriety. We already have ab bunch of imitators.

Not BP quotes, but Green Bar Bill's.

OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING." 3rd ed. SMHB and yes national mangled it in the current BSHB.

SCOUTING IS OUTING This is in a bunch of his works, but I best remember it, as well as his rendition of the Scout Oath and Law, from a 1990 scout show. Bold is to emphasise how he said it: with feeling and emotion.

But when a troop can do four camp outs a year and qualify fro J2E, that's a problem.

When you cannot use the current BSHB for camping info, instead having to use older BSHBs, that's a problem.

When the IOLS syllabus encourages using a sign off as soon as the trainees do the skill, "just like your scouts," which encourages a "one and done" mentality, that's a problem.

When candidates for the OA do not know what to pack, or how to waterproof their gear in their back packs, that's a problem.

When you got scouts who are First Class and above, along with a 20 something Eagle, who get lost and cannot backtrack to find their way, only to be rescued a few yards from the trail to the parking lot, yep you got a problem.

I'd bet that units that create successful troops would also have successful packs. And vice versa. ... PLUS, any scout at any time can change membership to another unit. I'd rather see the emphasis on changing to a unit that matches your needs and less on shopping for a unit when you become a Webelos scout.

Not necessarily. I've seen troops suffer and die because the pack that is also charted to the CO was horrible. In one instance everyone actively involved with the troop, including the COR who was duel enrolled as an ASM, was complaining about the situation and the leaders causing the mass exodus, but no one wanted to do anything to fix the problem. They wanted me, the professional, to remove the leaders and get new ones. But that is the job of the CO and COR.

And I've seen it where the pack is excellent, but the troop is faltering. The problem getting so bad that the pack, instead of promoting the CO's troop which led to the scouts leaving altogether, they promoted another troop.

Unfortunately, I am seeing this with the troop associated with my pack currently.

Fred,

Can't get the exact citations, but several MBs have as requirements to discuss first aid related to the MB topic. Hence some MBCs will accept the FA MB as completion of that requirement. If memory serves, I am no longer eligible to teach Swimming, Lifesaving,Rowing, and Canoeing, but those have first aid elements to the requirements.

Me personally, especially since First Aid techniques essentially changes every 5 years, I want t see them do the skill, or if the do an old skill correcly as they were taught, teach them the new skill.

SP,

They can only kick out scouts and leaders in their own unit. Not out of other units or district level stuff.

Fred,

Ideally that is how it's suppose to run via the the current charter system. Think of the COR as a group leader, and to help coodinate the units.

Problems are the following

1) CORs don't really do their jobs. On the unit level, unless the COR is also teh CC, I've only seen 1, and she was the IH and COR.

2) In my neck of the woods, there is a VERY strong anti Cub Scout bias, where some units do not have anything to do with the pack until crossover. Heck I remember the troop associated with my old pack was ticked off because they did not get any Webelos the year I moved up to Boy Scouts. And the reason: They would not do anything with us.

Or the OA candidates who do not know what to bring on a camp out or how to waterproof their gear in their packs.

Can't blame them too much though as some of the outdoor info that older BSHBs had in them is no more.

Best example I can give is that asew/repair kit was in my old BSHB as some to bring. I do and have used it as recently as 2 months ago on a camp out. A piece of equipment broke for an event, and the person asked if anyone had a sewing kit. I was the only one who did.

Peri,

That must be a recent change as I was told we could do all three at one time.

When the time requirements were first removed and we encountered this problem for the first time, we did all 3 BORs the same nite, with another scout's BORs inbetween.

Base,

I think some folks complained about the firelighting since some areas do have fire bans. Hence the requirement as it is read.

ALSO, if we continue to follow DOL rules like we are currently doing for service projects, those under 16y.o. won't be able to light stove at all

THAT BEING SAID (emphasis not shouting), you can come up with creative ways to light fires during fire bans that are not done on camp outs. Heck I'm willing to bet the local FD would be willing to help out.

A few comments.

1) Yes DEs visiting is rare, and some execs discourage it, saying "You have more important things to do."

I admit I was one of those that was conscientious and visited, or attempted to visit, a few of my IHs, but never visited all of them. In fact I stopped after a few months when I was told the above.

Not only is it customer service, but it gives you a "pulse" on your units and how they are doing as I remember form training. I know I learned a lot when I visited, or attempted to visit, the IHs. And I think if it was done yearly as it should, it can prevent problems.

Me personally, I think in addition to before rechartering, it should be done when you fist become a DE

2)As for going up the food chain, YES!

3)If there is no DE, then the Field Director or some other mid-level responsible for the area, or higher exec needs to do it.

4) I know a thing or two about vindictive SEs. If you have cause for concern about becoming an ineligible volunteer over the matter, you may be right. Unfortunately I saw part of that in action when I was a DE.

5) If the safety of kids is involved, go with your instinct and do what you must, letting the other consequences be damned!

Good luck.

My favorite is when the troop recharters and sets the COR to a specific person. Then the pack recharters and sets it to a different person. The next year, it happens all over again. The charter org executive just signs the recharter paperwork and never notices a difference. Troop never learns until the next year.

My favorite was the CO having 2 CORs, one for the pack and one for the troop. Don't ask how the council didn't correct it. All I can think was that b/c the units had 2 different numbers (don't ask), No one noticed.

Seen the same group of leaders run the troop and crew. They just exchanges roles, i.e committee folks in the troop were the Advisers for the crew, and Sm and 21+ ASMs in the troop were MCs in the crew.

SP,

You aint joking. I know a troop that had 5 Scout "camp" this past Eagle Weekend. Slept in cabins, ate in the cafeteria, and the bulk of the troop couldn't go. Nothing but MBs all weekend.

At least at summer camp, you are in a tent, got intertroop activities, and some fun MBs to work on like Wilderness Survival, Rifle, Shotgun, etc. Nothing but paperpushing MBs this past weekend though.

As GBB said, "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING.

Maybe the troop 20-30 minutes away that alternates backpacking a section of the AT and summer camp every year may be a better fit? Oldest son's eyes lit up when I was talking about that troop not going to summer camp this year, instead doing the AT.

Dean,

You would be surprised! I remember a school that was in one district's geographical territory, but served the communities in my districts well. that DE didn't want me involved in recruiting at that school at all, an my first FD agreed with him.

A year later and a new FD,I was told to recruit there, and not worry about the other DE. WOW that was very interesting conversation when the other DE found out I was "poaching" as he called it.

SP,

You really do NOT want to know how petty some pros can be, and they know better.Not so much the DE situation, but other poor customer service things.

Depending upon the situation, yes it is a big deal. In the situation I was one, a lot of the go to people in the community to be Chair would not do it b/c of relations with the SE and DFS. One person asked if the SE was still SE, and when I said yes, was told "H377 NO!

However, they did have a champagne party I am told when the SE left, and those folks got back involved when the DFS followed shortly thereafter.

Depends.

I've seen it where the Vice chair takes over.

I've seen it where the District commissioner does a fair bit of the job.

And I knwo I had to do a very large share of the job when my Chair resigned when I was a DE.

"Ashes to ashes

Dust to dust,

When volunteers don't

Professionals must."

Unfortunately I've seen districts like BD describes. Sometimes it is professionals on the district or council level. Sometimes it's volunteers. Every district is different.

Lots of good comments and ideas. I'll give you my experience as a youth that may help.

My troop used mixed age a patrols. We did the new scout patrol twice, once was a failure, the second time the NSP was a new troop piggybacking on us until they could move on. They ended up merging with us.

Depending upon the number of Scouts, we had 3-4 patrols: 2-3 mixed age and 1 older scout patrol at the time called a Leadership Corps, and they were the troop officers: scribe ASPL, instructors, etc.

We began integrating when the Webelos visited. We had them divided amongst the patrols during the meeting visit, but on the overnight camp out, which traditionally is a "wilderness survival" camp out, we would partner them up with an Scout in one of the mixed age patrols, and they were a member of that patrol for the weekend. When the time came to join the troop, they usually went to their buddy's patrol. Every 6 months, you could switch patrols if you wanted to and elections were held. Most of the time, once you were a Raven, a Hawk, or an Eagle, you stayed with that patrol until selected to join the Leadership Corps. Or the troop grew or shrunk.

Now the Leadership Corps had some requirements: at least 6 months, preferably 1 year as a PL, First Class or higher, and the LC members had to vote you in. LC usually ran the meetings and camp outs. BUT they also did their own thing too. Sometimes when the opportunity presented itself, the troop would be doing one thing, and the LC with an adult (this was pre-YP in most cases) would do their own thing. I remember doing more challenging trails at Vickburg and Pensacola.

Eventually the LC became a venture crew/patrol, then a Venturing Crew. When they became a Crew, they still worked with the troop, it was in the crew's by-laws, but periodically they would do their own Crew activity.

JoeBob,

1- Am I wrong in wanting to impose my Scouting expectations on the modern world? Are the basic scout skills irrelevant in the digital age?

Gonna take this in two parts. Up to a point, it is OK to want to impose your expectations. It's when you are going counter to the PLC's wants that you cross the line.

The key is to make the skills usable and FUN. Interpatrol contests, getting them away

frm the other patrols, etc. is what I would recommend. A

Had a similar conversation last night. How do you motivate a Star Scout who won't go to meetings b/c he is bored. Again keep it fun. Is the #1 thing. #2 Instill in them a service to the younger scouts. When they get 2nd class or so, have them start working with the younger ones on first aid. Heck use mixed age patrols and have the older ones buddy up with a newby so that they get expereince in teaching.

As for basic scout skill being irrelivant in the modern digital age.... HORSEHOCKEY! And yes that is me screanmin at the top of my lungs.

Do you know the story of the NASA astronaut who used the pioneering skills he learned as a Scout, and taught as an ASM, to solve a problem on the shuttle? Long story short and if my memory serves, the robotic arm in the shuttle broke, and needed to be secured before reentry. The astronaut told ground control he could fix it using a lashing and paracord. Ground control told him let the engineers figure out what to do before doing anything. 3 days later, ground control said the engineers said go ahead and use the lashing as that is the best thing to do.

Or how about the Marine who was deployed and several of the tents in his unit had broken plastic pieces on the guy lines. He used the taunt-line to fix the problem, and when the CO saw what he was doing, told him to teach everyone else the know to fix the problem.

Worse case though was a friend who fell down a cliff while hiking. He was stuck for a week on the side of the cliff, but used his skills to do first aid on himself, and survive until rescued.

2- What can I do to motivate / sell more of our adult leaders? (We have a core of 5-6 newer adults who share the same vision for the troop. We want our boys to be challenged and grow. The older leadership has settled for "whatever the boys want to do" car camping.)

How much HA expereince do you have? My old den is now Webelos I's, and they are chomping at the bit to camp like Boy Scouts. Some have backpacks already, some have gear on their Christmas lists. Why? I talked up some of the things I did as a scout, and it pumped them up. Just as one leader who is a QM talked up his experiences in Sea Scouts got me motivated about that program, I got my guys pumped.

Talk, talk, talk. Then set the example. And if you get one Scout following your lead, it will have a domino affect. Don't believe me. My old DC has a youtube video of his survival shelter in the snow. One of his scouts saw it, and promptly went into the back yard and built his own. When he went camping with the troop last month at camporee, instead of tent like everyone else, he did a "survival shelter" of plastic drop cloth. Others saw it, were impressed, and then really impressed when they found it a Webelos did it.

Yes I was a beaming dad about that

3- How could we convince the boys to expect more of themselves? Right now, they're very comfortable playing at being Boy Scouts and accomplishing little of lasting value. They've never known any different...,

talk and setting the example is good. Challenges work to. Not the " I challenge you to..." but " what do you think of....? want to try it?"

Contact your local scout shop as their is a special form to use. It can be expensive since you are paying for a flag AND every character.

Expect 6-8 weeks for deliver as they are custom made.

While I would make my own den flag, unit flags are a different matter IMHO. I'd stick with the official one.

Hawk,

I was told tonite that you do NOT need a new app to switch positions within a unit.

As for SCOUTNET records, I've been told that councils only have access to the ID numbers they create. They do not have access to other councils' records. Hence you get a new number everytime you move.

National allows a test out for IOLS, basically having to demonstrate the skills, but there is no formal process, nor do all councils allow it.

Now it's been a while since I was in charge of training, but there use to be 3 ways of getting it done: classes, personal mentoring, and self-study. Did the self-study format for Exploring, then a conversation with the Exploring exec about the material.

But the non-pilots are now following suit.

As for training, trust me I understand the importance of it. But I also understand the importance of not wasting someone's time. if someone has the knowledge, skills and abilities, test them out.

Don't ask how many numbers I have.

Back in the day, when I went to PDL-1 and met the director of the SCOUTNET project, I was told that SCOUTNET would prevent multiple numbers, and that advancement and training records would move with you.

Then I recently found out that SCOUTNET was never capable of doing that, despite what the old national director said.

Which explains why A) I kept getting new numbers everytime I moved and B) None of my training records followed me.

BSA24,

Problem with your scenario is that when you do need support, it may be challenging to get it since 1 DE may not hlep since you are not officially in the district, and the other may not help since you do not participate in the district. Shuold it happen like that, no, but reality.

Yes you can talk to the council to change districts, but better be prepared to explain why. We have 2 towns in another county that are in my district. The leaders way back when asked to be moved to our district b/c they had to go through the town where all of our meetings are in to get to their old district's functions.