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Okay, I have to clarify: THis is just a question of curiousity. I am not trying to bad mouth anybody or get vengance.


After planning for some time, I JUST got an e-mail from my OA contact yesterday ( Saturday 3-17 -12). Matter of fact, this guy was on the OA dance team.


So anyways, the OA was supposed to come to our AoL and Crossover ceremony that takes place tommorrow night ( Monday 3 -19-12)


Apparently there was some sort of falling out between a member and the rest of the lodge. THis member is the one who has the regallia . Due to hard felings betyween this member and the rest of the lodge, getting the regallia will not be possible. The dance team however, will still be coming.


My contact, who is one of the dancers, apologizes profuslu for this happening.




I do not have a clue as to what happened. I couldn't begin to even think of taking sides. Teenagers are teenagers and sometimes trying to understand them would be harder than trying to explain nuclear physics to my dog.



So, here's my question:


Doesn't the lodge own the equipment? If it doesn't..shouldn't it?


What is happening to our event is not the end of the world and can be overcome easily. We have a bunch of dedicated leaders who can easily step up and run the ceremony.


Sure, it would be cooler - presentation wise - if the OA did it in full costume, but again, the scouts will not think this is the end of the world.


But what about the OA? How many other events will now crash or be changed due to this falling out?


Again, my unit only sees this as a very minor set back, but depending on what others have planned ( and this is that time of year) is our chapetr of the OA giving themselves a black eye?



Again, not trying to badmouth a whole group based on the actions of one or two people. I have no idea what happened or who's fault it is.


But if the chapter owned the equipment, wouldn't this have been "somewhat" preventable? Does this mean they have to cancel all future plans until somebody buys more regallia or until they guys possibly make up with each other?


How much do the costumes cost? Pretty sure they aren't cheap. Who pays for it?


Again, just curious.

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A lot OA dancers spend a lot of time and personal money to make these costumes. I know of a young man that has spent what I consider a substantial sum on his costume as well as countless hours designing and making it. He considers it his personal property and loans it to the Lodge for Ceremonial purposes. In my opinion he owns the costume and may do with it whatever he wants to. He may not be able to personally attend the Crossover himself and does not trust the other young men (perhaps from past experiences) to take care of it.


Should the Lodge own their own equipment? Yes.


If the Lodge provides money and supplies to design and make a costume for the Lodge then the costume would belong to the Lodge and should be stored in a place that is agreeable to all concerned. Our Lodge on occasion gathers together and has a Camp out that is specifically geared to costume design and making. We provide the supplies and the boy's supply the design and labor. During the day we do a short service project also. After all the OA is all about service.

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1) It's called regalia. A costume is what someone wears at Halloween and Mardi Gras. :)


2) Every lodge and chapter does things differently. Technically all OA group gear is owned by the lodge as chapters are subsets of the lodge and cannot own things. Some lodges distribute gear, some lodges have the chapters obtain their own gear and essentially it's the chapter's until something major, like NOAC and conclaves, when the lodge want the best stuff for competition.


And sometimes each individual team member is responsible for their own regalia. If a person has extras, he may allow folks to borrow the extras


3) there are arguments for and against having both group gear and personal gear.

Group Gear Pros: you know where the gear is (usually)

New members can get into ceremonies, and in some instances dancing, relatively guickly with little costs until they get hooked.


Cons of Group gear: Sizing can be a problem

Folks sometimes do not take as good care as they should

Lodge may "request" the gear for lodge use ( this can sometimes lead to hard feelings)

Most lodges do stereotypes and don't do enough research to get it right.



Pros of personal gear: It is the individual's personal stuff and not subject to lodge recall, or anyone's for that matter,

Most folks when they make their own spend time researching the items, and spend a good bit of time planning and makeing it.


More later




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OK back


More pros: regalia is usually very well maintainted


Cons of personal gear.


if you rely on one person's gear and they decide to no longer allow you to use it, you are in trouble.


EXPENSIVE, I can't tell you how many hundreds of dollars I've spent on my regalia.


TIME CONSUMING, I've been at it how many years, and I still do not have a complete set of regalia.


DIFFERENCES Between Dance and Ceremony regalia. Beleive it or not there ar edifferent styles on Native American dance, and some dance regalia will not work with ceremonies, and vice versa.


Trust me it takes a lot of planning to get some items to do double duty for both ceremonies and dance.

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Well let me first explain I am not part of teh Oa. I mean, I know you probably couldn't tell but.... :)


I'm not sure if the dancers will have costumes or not.


I do know that the dance team is a seperate part of OA.

The OA rep who is my contact is on the dance team, but as far as I know, he is also the OA contact for our district.


Or at the very least, he was the contact name I was given and had been working with.


We will still have the dance part.



So Eagle93,


I am only an hour and a half from you. Feel like dancing? LOL! :)


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Ownership can at times be hard to work out.

I own a fair amount of Scouting equipment which is mine.

I use it, I maintain it and I can do whatever I like with it which might include allowing Scouts to use it.

I have donated a lot of gear to Scouting (I'm thinking mainly of the Ship.)

I no longer own it, while I might at times maintain it, I do so knowing that I don't have to and that it's my choice.

There is a fair amount of Scouting equipment that is kept / stored on my property.

Some it it is training equipment that is used by the district and was bought to be used by the district.

Of course the district is an arm of the council so the stuff really belongs to the council.

The Lodge is part of the council so if the gear doesn't belong to a person then it in fact really belongs to the council.

In a perfect world everyone would know who owns what and this would be recorded somehow someway.

In the case of the OA Dance Team maybe the individual owns parts of the regalia, but there are parts that belong to the lodge.

When everyone is happy there really isn't a problem, but at times when someone gets upset things can get heated.

Someone who has donated something, then wants to take it back.

I can't help but think of a donated ax.

The head has been replaced three times and the shaft twice, but the guy who donated it wants it back??

That seems silly, I know but when people get upset silliness tends to happen.


Not to hijack the thread but if your using a OA Dance Team? Be sure to let them know how long you want them to dance.

I invited our team many years ago to a B&G. Their dancing lasted a lot longer then the attention span of the Cub Scouts and their parents. Before they were done, about half of the people that had been there had packed up and gone home.



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You aint joking that ownership can get muddled sometimes. I know I had one chapter ticked off at me.


Long story short, I lent, stressed LENT, some regalia to an individual, and I was unable get my stuff back before I moved. The guy was avoiding me apparently. 2 years later I return to the area. I am attending an event and I see the stuff I lent, as well as stuff I DID donate to the chapter, being used. I went up to talk to the folks and found out that the guy I lent my stuff to had gone to college and donated it to the chapter. I had to break the bad news to them that it wasn't his regalia to give, and showed them where I had marked the regalia in such a way as to prove it's mine, and I also showed them how on the regalia I did donate, I blackened out my name and put the chapter's name in its place. I was able to get my stuff back, but the folks were upset.


Like I said previously, group gear sometimes does not get taken care of like it should. The stuff I got back was not in as good of shape as similar items I made around the same time. Heck I still need to make some repairs to them for CSDC this year.

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If the Lodge supplies the monies to make the clothes and outfits, the Lodge owns them. It's that simple. If the individual supplies the monies then they own them.


I my decades of OA involvement, I will say that clothes that are made and funded by an individual receive better care. The Lodge owned stuff gets thrown on the ground and damaged because the Scouts don't think it's their resources.


My Lodge put together a box of our older ceremonial clothes and make it available to the Districts for Cross Over ceremonies. Sometimes a Chapter will take charge of the ceremony for the District. We don't currently have anyone that is a dancer, so we don't deal with the various styles of clothes. We use late 1800's style Seminole clothin which is easy and inexpensive to make and maintain.

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If the Lodge or Chapter paid for the costumes, it belongs to the Lodge or Chapter and getting back is as simple as telling the person to return the items or be charged with theft.


If it's the individual's personal costumes, then they belong to him and the Lodge/Chapter should start working on putting together their own inventory.


It's not unusual for dance team members to have their own costumes, apart and separate from the lodge's costumes. It would be unusual for one individual to own all the costumes for a Lodge/Chapter.


Side note: It is NOT regalia - no matter how much foolish people like to use that word. Frankly, the use of the word regalia to describe these costumes is silly and shows an incredible ingnorance of the English language, and American Indian traditions. Regalia refers to the symbols of a Sovereign - it's the crown, the orb, the sceptors, coronation clothing, etc. That is regalia. Some might argue that Allowat Sakima's headress is regalia, I suppose, but that would just show ignorance of American Indian traditions. Chiefs were and are not Kings or Sovereigns.


For actual American Indian dancers, what they wear at a dance is an outfit. For all others, it is a costume - clothes worn to make a person look like somebody or something else. If you aren't an American Indian, and you are dressing up like an American Indian, whether to dance, or to lead a ceremony, you are wearing a costume.

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Must respectfully disagree. While "costume" according to the Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. (OED-II) may be the correct term to use for everyone, both Native and non-Native alike, at the powwows I've been to, the Native American seminars I've been to, and to the dancers I have talked to and learned from, you never, stressing NEVER, call it a costume. The two terms used are OUTFITS or REGALIA. And it doesn't matter if you are a full-blooded Native American, half-blooded, or non-Native, it is called regalia or an outfit.

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"1) It's called regalia. A costume is what someone wears at Halloween and Mardi Gras."


For those of us who do historical re-enactments, dancing, etc, its outfit or regalia. As noted, doesn't matter WHO you are, its about how your outfit is made. I usually find its the people OUTSIDE who want to claim its a costume, not those inside. HOWEVER, (and I'll have to double check), the items used for ceremonies are supposed to be called "costumes" and treated as such.


In most cases, when it comes to ceremonies, the idea is that you have outfits that the team wears, so they should be owned (and maintained, etc) by the lodge. The same outfits would be used for AoL/Crossover ceremonies.


With dance teams, its usually individuals who create their own outfits.



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I hate to break it to you guys, but the OA Guide to Inductions explains on page 7 of Appendix 13 that the correct term is "costume". That being said, all of our Chapter owned regalia resides at this Chapter Advsier's house just like it did with the Adviser before me and will with the one taking over from me next year.

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WWWWWEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLL I no longer have access to THE definitive dictionary of the English language, the OED-II, So I'm gonna have to go with the next best thing; The New Oxford American Dictionary (NOAD :)


As I stated previously, while according to the dictionary, costume would be an appropriate word for anyone, and that's why I bet the writers of the G2I used the term, in the Native American world, costume is a derogatory and insulting word to describe what they wear. Here are the definitions of "costume," "regalia," and "outfit" from the NOAD:


a set of clothes in a style typical of a particular country or historical period: 'authentic Elizabethan costumes' | 'a Chinese woman in national costume.'   a set of clothes worn by an actor or other performer for a particular role or by someone attending a masquerade: 'a nun's costume.' a set of clothes, esp. a woman's ensemble, for a particular occasion or purpose; an outfit.


It's the second definition of costume that most people identify with. So when folk on the powwow circuit here it, they ARE insulted. Notice one of the synonyms of costume is.... OUTFIT ;)


Regalia according to the NOAD is


the emblems or insignia of royalty, esp. the crown, scepter, and other ornaments used at a coronation.   the distinctive clothing worn and ornaments carried at formal occasions as an indication of status ( emphasis mine): 'the Bishop of Florence in full regalia.' distinctive, elaborate clothing ( again emphasis mine): 'young men, a few in gang regalia.'


Word Origin:

mid 16th cent. (in the sense royal powers): from medieval Latin, literally royal privileges, from Latin, neuter plural of regalis regal.



USAGE The word regalia comes from Latin and is, technically speaking, the plural of regalis. However, in the way the word is used in English today, it behaves as a collective noun, similar to words like staff or government. This means that it can be used with either a singular or plural verb ( the regalia of Russian tsardom is now displayed in the Kremlin or the regalia of Russian tsardom are now displayed in the Kremlin ). In fact, in English, regalia has no other singular form.


Regalia has two definitions that fit better in the dance world. Depending upon the style, items worn and used can indicate status in a scoiety or a nation, hence the second definition of regalia. With all styles of dance it can be seen as the third definition.


Outfit is defined as the following



a set of clothes worn together, typically for a particular occasion or purpose: 'a riding outfit.'   ( emphasis mine) [usu. with adj.] (informal) a group of people undertaking a particular activity together, as a group of musicians, a military unit, or a business concern: 'Tom was the brains of the outfit.' [with adj.] a complete set of equipment or articles needed for a particular purpose: 'a repair outfit.'


provide (someone) with a set of clothes: 'an auction of dolls outfitted by world-famous designers' | 'he outfitted himself in the best gray suit he could afford.'   provide with equipment: 'planes outfitted with sophisticated electronic gear.'


Inflected Form(s):

-fitted, -fitting


As you can see the first definition applies.


Now why am I going overboard on this, and I admit I am? Because on the powwow,the BSA, and the OA especially, does have a bad rep. Some of it is folks being disrespectful, even after being told what they are saying or doing, is insulting. Some of it is the lack of knowledge on the topic, the lack of interest, and also attitudes. I've seen folks do some do and say some stupid things that almost caused some major trouble. I've had folks who know all about dancing because they danced as youth 20, 30, 40 years ago. BUT they have not been to a powwow in the last 2-5 years.


Native American is a living, breathing, and changing culture, and it changes as time changes. It has it's own fads and fashions. I am in the process or remaking most of my regalia as it somehow got badly damaged while it was in storage. I will be taking some time, when I can find it anyway, to make it a bit more uptodate and with current trends than how I made it 8-10 years ago.




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