Pros and Cons of Bylaws

[Buffalo Skipper 13]

OK, here's a hotbed topic. Troop (not Venturing or Sea Scout) Bylaws.

 

A little digging in our old troop files uncovered 2 different copies of our troop bylaws dating back 12+ years (before the days of electronic copies). There has been some debate about updating these and storing them on our new (now 5 year old) computer.

 

Why should we have them? What should they cover? Dues? Equipment fees? Registration expectations? Participation? Website policies? PLC responsibilities? Conduct? Punishment?

 

Or should they be done away with entirely?

 

If you use bylaws, how do you "enforce" them? If you don't, what do you do "instead"?

[asm 411 10]

I personal believe that Troop generated bylaws or policies are not necessary in Scouting. Conversations with boy leaders or Scouts will cover most situations. Conversations with parents and their children will cover the rest. The BSA provides plenty of documentation about how, what and where. Knowing where to find the information is the trick.

 

Having hard copies the Boy Scout Handbook, Scoutmasters Handbook, Advancement Guide and GTSS at he ready covers most of it. Of course you will need to read these books and probably several times get a good understanding of where the information is located.

 

Many times if you can not find what you are looking for ask here or other similar forums and someone can general quote a BSA publication chapter and verse.

 

The biggest argument I hear for having policies or bylaws is for disciplinary action. I believe creating a policy opens up the door for finding loop holes and exceptions. It is far better to deal with situations, the few that happen, one at a time talking it over with those involved face to face.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

I think there needs to be a distinction between what some would consider by-laws and others operational policy. For example, dues are due the first week of the month is an operational policy. Where the Troop meets, time of meeting, that sort of information is Troop Policy or Guidelines, or something other than a By-Law. Of course, thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

A by-law that states a scout should act scoutlike at all times on a troop event seems superfluous, a scout it to act scout like at all times. If a scout is not acting scoutlike, its up to the troop leadership present at the time to do what needs be done and then the Committee can talk about it later, if warranted.

 

Odds are, even with the most complete multiple page By-Law book compiled, it will not address the situation first time someone thinks it needs to be consulted.

 

Then once you start to use By-Laws, they all have to be enforced (not a real scout like term, enforcing by-laws)

 

Rules, Regulations, Codes of Conduct, etc are needed to keep order in large oranizations where discipline and consistency are prized, I hope most of us don't see our units as these types of oranizations and are more willing to work with the people involved than use a rule and summarily apply it

[John-in-KC 311]

Have you had a talk with your COR yet about what the Chartered Partner wants to see covered? Have you had a talk with your UC over same?

 

Many unit bylaws cover stuff already in BSA program materials. If you must have bylaws, they should be stuff unique to matters in your State and other legal jurisdictions.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I agree with OGE. We should get straight what we mean.

 

General operatin' rules and policies are one thing. Those you might compile as they get enacted by the CO or the committee, or put in place by the SM. Things like "fingerprint background checks are required for all adult leaders in kid contact positions" (CO policy), or "scout accounts can only be used to pay for outings expenses, and when a boy leaves they can be transferred to a sibling" (Committee policy), or "you must sign up at least 2 weeks in advance for an outing" (PLC/SM policy).

 

All of those are good to have, good to compile, and worth communicatin' to whoever needs to know them through handbooks or letters or orientations or whatnot. All units have 'em.

 

Bylaws generally refer to how the Troop Committee operates, eh? As long as there are no disputes, you're a group of friends with da same vision, and yeh have a longish "operating history" that has set up some traditional ways of doin' business yeh don't need 'em. But having them can help yeh a bit when you do have disputes.

 

Typical bylaws would cover rules of order for runnin' a meeting, what constitutes a quorum, who gets to vote (and on what things yeh don't vote), what the scope of the committee's role is, what the scope of individual positions and subcommittees are, how appointments to positions are made and for what term, perhaps what would happen to assets on dissolution, etc. Might be important to cover things like when complaints are out of order or how the committee will handle a decision on a disciplinary expulsion from the troop, for example.

 

If you're a "Parents of" or "Friends of" charter operatin' either as a corporation or an association, yeh should have bylaws. Must have, in many cases. Units with "regular" CO's that are incorporated, it's more optional. As a rule, the less diverse your unit is, the less yeh need bylaws (and other policies for that matter). If you're an LDS or other church unit tightly tied to the church, yeh won't need bylaws. But if you're somethin' like a PTO unit in a diverse area, where people won't necessarily agree on practice or vision, then spelling out ways of handling discussions and disputes can perhaps be worthwhile.

 

Beavah

 

[emb021 16]

"Why should we have them? What should they cover? Dues? Equipment fees? Registration expectations? Participation? Website policies? PLC responsibilities? Conduct? Punishment?"

 

Well, here's the thing.

 

The purpose of bylaws (that's one word, no hyphen) is to define how an organization is organized. Troops don't need this, because this information is already set down in BSA documents.

 

What you list above have nothing to do with how your troop is organized. These are other items an organization needs to be defined, but this would NOT be placed in a org's bylaws, but be placed into other documents known as "Standing Rules" or "Policies" and the like.

 

If you feel the need to document these things, and I'm not saying that a bad idea, please don't think of these as bylaws. They are your troop policies. These should be kept up to date, and every member (or atleast every family) should be provided a copy (and any updates). Be sure that whatever you do put in your troop policies are NOT in violation of BSA policies (which happens more often then you think). I.e. participation rules are a bad idea, because per statements of BSA National, 'be active in your troop' means being registered. So trying to put down that boys have to attend a certain number of events/meetings to be considered active will not be supported by National. (this is something that comes up about every few months on-line).

 

 

[evmori 11]

OK if we agree bylaws are really operational policies, I see these as a good thing.

[Buffalo Skipper 13]

Beavah, thanks for the perspective of "what are bylaws." I have had an idea of bylaws based on what I have seen, and it is nothing like what you described (that's not to say you're wrong, only that I had not looked at it that way before).

 

I have looked at a dozen or two websites with troop bylaws posted. Most cover everything you said: from dues and attendance to PLC defined and elections, from committee descriptions to BoR schedule, and from defined membership to discipline. Many are dozens of pages long, either quoting or re-writing what is specified in a variety of scouting publications. One even defined exactly how many ASPLs, Troop Guides and Instructors the troop was to elect; not a real flexible document, that one.

 

Is this really necessary? Not in my opinion, it has already been defined by BSA. Neither the PLC, Troop committee, nor the CO have any authority to change that. But even with that strong a statement, I am not saying that a troop should not have bylaws. There are some things that I feel should be clarified.

 

I found one interesting site which had a conduct policy (Article 1? of the troop bylaws) which quoted word-for-word the Scout Law and it's description. That goes back to the original thread off of which this was spun. Another discussed (and this is what bylaws should be, in my opinion) activities and policies, such as dues, participation (based on current dues), transportation expectations for parents, and troop equipment policies (checked out by patrol). It also talked about website policies and photos of youth (another important issue) and how that was handled.

 

Shouldn't that cover it? If you want to define how to run a committee, buy Robert's Rules of Order, and leave a copy on the table while you meet (I leave mine in the car, but always bring it).

 

Venturing (and Sea Scout) bylaws are not the samething at all, being defined and specified in BSA documents, and are to be written and approved by the youth members. But as I said when I began the thread, that is a horse of a different color.

[emb021 16]

"Beavah, thanks for the perspective of "what are bylaws." I have had an idea of bylaws based on what I have seen, and it is nothing like what you described (that's not to say you're wrong, only that I had not looked at it that way before)."

 

If you want an understanding of "what are bylaws", I recommend you pull out your copy of "Robert's Rules of Order, Newly Revised" (you do have a copy of that, and not another spurious version of Robert's?) and read the section on bylaws. As a parliamentarian, I too often have to deal with groups and individuals who have a very 'incorrect' idea of what they are (and aren't).

 

Yes, a lot of troop have put together documents they erronously called 'bylaws', then cram in alot of stuff taken from BSA literature. Usually a big mistake.

 

"Is this really necessary? Not in my opinion, it has already been defined by BSA. Neither the PLC, Troop committee, nor the CO have any authority to change that."

 

Well, yes, which was the point I (and others) were making.

 

"But even with that strong a statement, I am not saying that a troop should not have bylaws. There are some things that I feel should be clarified."

 

Again, yes, but those items that should be clarified DON'T belong in bylaws of any organization. :\

 

"Another discussed (and this is what bylaws should be, in my opinion) activities and policies, such as dues, participation (based on current dues), transportation expectations for parents, and troop equipment policies (checked out by patrol). It also talked about website policies and photos of youth (another important issue) and how that was handled."

 

Again, NOTHING of the above belong in bylaws. These are not the purpose of bylaws. Do they need to be defined? Probably. But NOT in bylaws. They go into other documents of an organization, called "Standing Rules" or "Policies" (again, read RONR to understand what Standing Rules are and how they are different from and separate from bylaws).

 

"Shouldn't that cover it? If you want to define how to run a committee, buy Robert's Rules of Order, and leave a copy on the table while you meet (I leave mine in the car, but always bring it)."

 

Actually, buy a copy of "Robert's Rules of Order, Newly Revised" and actually read it. (or if its too hard, get the "In Brief" version).

 

"Venturing (and Sea Scout) bylaws are not the samething at all, being defined and specified in BSA documents, and are to be written and approved by the youth members. But as I said when I began the thread, that is a horse of a different color."

 

Sorry, incorrect. Venturing/Sea Scout bylaws are meant to be 'real' bylaws. They are NOT defined and specified in BSA documents. Instead, what the BSA docs do is specify that certain clauses will be in their bylaws, leaving the rest to be defined by the crew/ship. This is not unusual. Most subsidiary groups are usually provided with a template or guidelines to follow by their parent organization. This is little different, tho how the BSA does it isn't the normal way of handling this (big surprise).

 

 

It may help to know what the standard article of most bylaws are:

 

I. Name of the organization

II. Object/Purpose

III. Members (membership classes, rights, how to join, etc)

IV. Officers (officers, duties, how selected/elected, etc)

V. Meetings (kinds of meetings, how often, who calls them)

VI. Executive Committee (who makes up this group, etc)

VII. Committees (what are the standing committees of group, etc)

VIII. Parliamentary Authority

IX. Amendment (how to change the bylaws)

 

As noted, for a Troop Committee, the information that would be in the above is already set down in the Troop Committee Guidebook. For a troop, this is really already defined in the Scoutmaster Handbook and similiar books. Hence why many of us say troops don't need bylaws.

 

Anything else a troop needs to setdown can go into a simple "Troop Policies" document.

 

[Bob White 20]

This is a topic that springs up at least a few times a year it seems on this forum.

 

If bylaws are needed in a pack or troop no one has ever proven it.

 

If the unit bylaws found on unit websites, or shared on this forum, are any indication then not only are they not needed, but it shows that no unit that has them knows what bylaws actual are and they never learned what the Scouting program is.

 

A good example is an "experienced" unit leader on this forum that argued that "Troop meetings are Tusday night at 7pm" is a bylaw. It is neither a bylaw or a policy...it's part of a program plan.

 

I think we can safely ask any unit to share its bylaws with us and we would find that A) they are not actually bylaws, B) they are in conflict with BSA regulations, C)they are an unnecessary reprint of a BSA publication.

 

Usually all three examples can by found in a single set of unit bylaws.

 

What we need are fewer unit bylaws and more trained unit leaders.

[Buffalo Skipper 13]

Yes, you are right. Bylaws are not about what most troops employ them as. And yes, I agree that they are not necessary (convincing the committee of that is a different matter). I will review that section of Robert's Rules of Order tonight. Prehaps it should be defined as you say as a "Troop Policies document."

I did do a poor job ofexplaining my reference to Venturing bylaws. What I should have said is that there is nothing in any Boy Scout (troop) literature suggesting or requiringa troop (committee) shouldadopt bylaws, whereas this is encouraged for crews.

Thanks for the good and accurate information. This will help me as I revise this old troop document.

[Beavah 205]

The purpose of bylaws (that's one word, no hyphen) is to define how an organization is organized. Troops don't need this, because this information is already set down in BSA documents.

 

Nah, this isn't really true, eh?

 

BSA literature doesn't specify a parliamentary authority / how committee discussions are to be conducted, doesn't specify quorums or voting, doesn't specify committee scope vs. scope of da CO, only offers guidance on how new committee members and adult leaders are to be selected (by the committee or a subcommittee), doesn't specify subcommittees, doesn't specify terms of office or method for selection of officers, etc.

 

There's lots of room for a troop to have real bylaws in some circumstances. Might even be a few spots where they're useful. Though I don't particularly encourage the practice, it's important not to overstate the case. One spot, for example, which is completely blank in da BSA literature, is "how does the committee run the process for considering expulsion of a youth member?" That's a good one to have in place before you need it, eh!

 

Yah, and of course a PLC might choose to adopt bylaws at the youth level, eh? I reckon that's overkill for a troop as much or more than it is for a crew, but it can be a learning experience for the lads if the unit feels that kind of learning is important.

 

Is this really necessary? Not in my opinion, it has already been defined by BSA. Neither the PLC, Troop committee, nor the CO have any authority to change that.

 

Yah, we've got to be careful about overbroad statements here, too, eh? There are very few things in BSA literature that a CO can't change for their unit, and all of 'em either have to do with the BSA's awards, trademarks, and "image" or with things that affect risk exposure. Everything else is da CO's authority, because they own and are responsible for the unit. They choose to use BSA program literature to help with their program, but the program is defined by the CO, not the BSA.

 

So sure, a troop policy or just a plain old SM can say "we're not going to have an ASPL." Perfectly fine, even though ASPL is a position in the BSA program literature. And I reckon all troops "adjust" what da job descriptions are of various committee positions to fit their needs and circumstances.

 

Again, I don't particularly recommend bylaws, especially the way a lot of 'em are done. Nor am I fond of a whole lot of unit policy which really should be more program practice as BobWhite indicates. Just let's not overstate the case, eh? There can be times when such things are both appropriate and successful.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Bob White 20]

Beavah writes "BSA literature doesn't specify a parliamentary authority / how committee discussions are to be conducted, doesn't specify quorums or voting, doesn't specify committee scope vs. scope of da CO, only offers guidance on how new committee members and adult leaders are to be selected (by the committee or a subcommittee), doesn't specify subcommittees, doesn't specify terms of office or method for selection of officers, etc."

 

That's not actually true. BSA Literature DOES specify the use of Roberts Rules of Order and the use of bylaws.

 

You have to remember that the BSA is more than just Cub Scouts and Boys Scouits. I agree that no Cub or Boy Scout related literature discusses Robert's or bylaws...BUT BSA literature for Venturing does!

 

Again however, it not for application with the adult committee but for the youth Crew officers in their meetings. The BSA in fact includes an example of Crew bylaws in the Venturing Manual.

 

So while bylaws and Robert's Rules of Order have their place in Scouting...it is not in Cub Scout or Boy Scout program operations.

 

 

 

[emb021 16]

"If bylaws are needed in a pack or troop no one has ever proven it."

 

Well, I'll put it a little differently.

 

If the BSA felt that packs and troops needed bylaws, they would clearly say so and even provide guidelines/templates for them.

 

They don't.

 

National provides a booklet to define local council bylaws, and (as noted) sets down guidelines for bylaws for OA Lodges, Council VOAs, and Venturing Crews/Ships.

 

Most organizations who expect their subsidiary groups to have bylaws at a minimum mandate they are completed as part of being organized/chartered, and ideally provide guidence as to content.

 

 

[emb021 16]

"BSA literature doesn't specify a parliamentary authority / how committee discussions are to be conducted, doesn't specify quorums or voting, doesn't specify committee scope vs. scope of da CO, only offers guidance on how new committee members and adult leaders are to be selected (by the committee or a subcommittee), doesn't specify subcommittees, doesn't specify terms of office or method for selection of officers, etc."

 

And for most groups I would agree that all that sort of things needs to be specified and put into their bylaws.

 

However, BSA doesn't seem to feel that any of that is necessary for a troop committee. Wonder why?

 

But then I've not been impressed with how the BSA seems to set down how elections should be held at the district, council, and regional levels...