Teaching merit badges

[OldGreyEagle 5]

We don't need to put Names on Threads

 

This is everything to this point

 

Beavah

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Registered: 6/11/2005

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Yet Another BobWhite Thread (teaching MBs)

Posted: Tuesday, 10/28/2008: 11:40:14 PM quality

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This thread was spun from another thread..

Yah, thought I'd spin this off so the original thread wouldn't be hijacked into another argument with BobWhite, eh? I think it's an interestin' discussion, though, so I'd like to pursue it.

 

My original claim was that if BSA were to offer sports, we'd teach soccer by having a sit down session and talk about soccer, rather than givin' kids balls and actually playing. I suggested that even for Canoeing MB (which I do counsel as an ACA swiftwater instructor) we can get 'em right into boats and having fun.

 

He and I both agree that MBs should be done as individual counseling sessions, eh? But in response to my comment, BW responded:

 

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While there is no title of Merit Badge Teacher, no one can deny that a merit badge counselor teaches, and so they need to have a good knowledge on how to teach and, how to do it effectively. It would be intellectually dishonest to try and keep teaching and the methods of teaching out of a discussion on merit badge counseling by saying that 'there in no position called teacher in scouting'. Any adult involved in the development of others is a teacher.

 

To regard being safety conscious as being lazy is an interesting, but not a defendable, position. What leader with any common sense would first give a scout an ax for the first time and tell him to split some wood, without first reviewing the safety precautions for using and ax, as well as the correct way to use it.

 

Any responsible boater will review the safety precautions and boat operations before taking a person out on a boat let alone sending an untrained person out on one. That would be true on any size or type of vessel whether it is a power boat, sail boat, or even a canoe.

 

In Sea Scouting our boat repairs often include the use of a variety of power tools. It would be irresponsible to let a scout operate a table saw without first going over safety and operational instructions, just as it would to send them on the water in a canoe without pre-training. There is nothing lazy about safety, to think someone would teach boating and not first teach safety is disturbing, especially when you are responsible for the safety and welfare of other people's children.

 

No one said that these things needed to be done in a lecture style of instruction. A good counselor understands how to do this without lecturing. But when it comes to merit badges where safety is an element it is unwise and poorly planned to teach safety AFTER the activity has begun.

 

I do not understand what the Patrol Method has to do with merit badge counseling or with hands on teaching versus lecturing for merit badges. Why Beavah chose to introduce it to the thread is a mystery. To me this is just a smoke screen to avoid the issue of responsible leadership and instruction when it comes to merit badge topics that include an element of safety.

 

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(This message has been edited by Beavah)

 

Gold Winger

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RE: By the numbers

Posted: Tuesday, 10/28/2008: 11:48:18 PM quality

"But in response to my comment that it's perfectly possible to run a fun, safe Canoeing MB session or shotgun session without startin' out with a sit-down instructional hour, BobWhite commented:"

 

I have to disagree as well and I'm still wondering what a "Level 2" instructor is.

 

Beavah

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RE: Yet Another BobWhite Thread (teaching MBs)

Posted: Wednesday, 10/29/2008: 12:06:18 AM quality

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[Now to pick up the discussion]

 

Nah, BW, you're spinning again, eh?

 

What I said was that the notion of havin' to do a sit-down talked instructional introduction to canoeing MB was lazy, eh? That's either a MBC who doesn't know enough about teaching and counseling to be hands-on, or it's a MBC whose personal paddling skills aren't good enough to manage and guide a small group of beginners on easy water.

 

Has nothing to do with safety. A good Canoe MBC can select a location where it is perfectly safe for boys who really have passed the 1st Class Swim Test to get into a canoe promptly, without sittin' 'em all down and blah blah blahin' at 'em for "safety." So can a capable skipper on a bigger vessel, sail or power. In fact, that's what we all must do eh? As responsible adults, we can never assume the boys were listening and actually understood and learned from a blah-blah-blah safety briefing. To my mind, anybody who relies on an introduction talk for safety is being irresponsible with other people's children (as BW would put it). Yeh can't count on 'em "getting it", so yeh have to plan safety assuming that they weren't paying attention. And if yeh have to do that anyway, why bore them when you can get 'em out paddling?

 

Yeh, see, a good counselor who understands about teachin' recognizes that boys don't learn anything about safety before an activity. Boys learn about safety by doin' an activity and developing an understanding of what the issues are. The key to both safety and instruction is to develop a proper and appropriate sequence of challenges, not to give people "The Introduction Talk". But doin' that does take more knowledge of how to teach, and more preparation, than a mediocre MBC is likely to put in.

 

Now, one of da ways to put real safety in place is with Patrol Method, eh? If you have older boys mentoring younger boys in a patrol, then you have more total group experience. Yeh can accommodate more lads as an instructor safely, because the older boys provide some strength and help with the instruction. And an example for da younger ones to watch! All that is assumin' the OP's notion of workin' on a MB as a whole troop or whole patrol, of course. Now, if yeh don't have good Patrol Method or at least Youth Leadership Method in practice, then it's harder work for a MBC to set up a safe environment and get a group that size on the water.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

 

evmori

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Registered: 11/16/2001

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Posts: 7693

RE: Yet Another BobWhite Thread (teaching MBs)

Posted: Wednesday, 10/29/2008: 7:29:18 AM quality

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I see nothing wrong with having a sit-down session prior to getting into the canoe about basic safety & such but if it last more than 15 minutes you will lose your audience! Learning by doing is much more effective than by lecturing.

 

Lisabob

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RE: Yet Another BobWhite Thread (teaching MBs)

Posted: Wednesday, 10/29/2008: 7:40:23 AM quality

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Last year I started kayaking (flat water). I had never been in a kayak before. First thing our instructor did was to put us in kayaks on safe water. You can explain certain concepts til the cows come home, but get someone out on the water for 10 minutes and it'll make things a lot clearer, a lot quicker. I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to boys.

 

But there may be a few MBs that do require at least a very short sit-down. I wouldn't just hand a shotgun to any kid without a couple of words about basic safety first. Nor would I hand over the keys to the motor boat without some prior discussion. And you have to keep in mind that often, MBCs do not know the scouts who come to them very well, so that they can't be sure which boys are really squirrely or have "issues" that might bear closer scrutiny. In a badge where safety is a big potential issue, I wouldn't begrudge the MBC a few minutes of talk time to try and get a handle on the kid's personality first.

 

Bob White

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Registered: 2/3/2002

Location: Midwest

Posts: 9305

RE: Yet Another BobWhite Thread (teaching MBs)

Posted: Wednesday, 10/29/2008: 8:34:53 AM quality

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What I said was that the notion of havin' to do a sit-down talked instructional introduction to canoeing MB was lazy, eh?

 

What you actually posted Beavah was I think yeh use the standard excuse for MBC's who are lazy, eh? "It's a safety thing, I have to lecture for a long time first"

 

Now you not only misquote me to fit your argument you even misquote yourself. Interesting.

 

You said that using safety as an excuse not to throw scouts into the activity was lazy. I responded with a just a few examples of activities where such behavior is dangerous and irresponsible.

 

We agree with the BSA that teaching by lecturing is nor effective. Where we seem to differ is that you dont seem to acknowledge that it is the individual counselors weakness, and instead you suggest that this is a program problem. Where does the BSA suggest that hands on teaching is not the best method?

 

To suggest that the Patrol Method or Youth Leadersip is related to merit badge instruction is inaccurate. For the Patrol leaders to have an effect on safety in the situation they describe they would need pre-training or pre-instruction, knowledge which you have not established that they have. Without that they are in no better a position to effect safety than the patrol members themselves.

 

Since this is a thread about merit badge instruction technique I would appreciate it if you would be more accurate in your thread title. This is not about me. This is about the same topic as the previous thread, group merit badge instruction. Why you chose to continue it in another forum column I do not know.

 

This is still about merit badge counselors working with groups and belongs in the Advancement Section in the same thread it began in.

 

SR540Beaver

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RE: Yet Another BobWhite Thread (teaching MBs)

Posted: Wednesday, 10/29/2008: 8:54:28 AM quality

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Beavah,

 

Very bad form my friend. Starting threads about other members and actually naming them in the title is known as a "call out thread" in the internet forum world. In some of the other forums I frequent in cyberspace, that is a bannable offense or earns you a lengthy timeout.

 

Your title implies that you are once again having to start another thread to set the world straight on something that pesky Bob White said. Bob is right. You don't need to start multiple threads on the same subject. Let the thread take its natural course. They start with a comment or question followed by other people's take on it or advice and then slowly meander off into nothingness when they have run their course. We don't need 50 permutations of the same topic when it is easier to go to one place and get all the views of anyone who wants to comment.

 

Perhaps you are not aware that what you did was a call out thread, but it was.......and you owe Bob an apology.

 

Gold Winger

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RE: By the numbers

Posted: Wednesday, 10/29/2008: 9:18:01 AM quality

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I'm still wondering what a Level 2 instructor is.

 

evmori

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Registered: 11/16/2001

Location: Pittsburgh. PA

Posts: 7693

RE: Yet Another BobWhite Thread (teaching MBs)

Posted: Wednesday, 10/29/2008: 10:38:12 AM quality

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It's different than a Level 1 Instructor!

 

jblake47

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Registered: 6/1/2006

Location: Wisconsin

Posts: 1231

RE: Yet Another BobWhite Thread (teaching MBs)

Posted: Wednesday, 10/29/2008: 11:02:15 AM quality

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On-forum moderation by a non-Moderator is also banable/timeout on some forums, if not poor forum etiquette. :^) As a multiple-forum moderator/owner on other forums, some of the best/effective moderation occurs off-forum rather than enflaming the thread in public.

 

(Don'tcha just hate it when the slope gets slippery?)

 

Stosh, (trying to get off the slippery slope himself!)

 

Beavah

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Posts: 3002

RE: Yet Another BobWhite Thread (teaching MBs)

Posted: Wednesday, 10/29/2008: 11:07:04 AM quality

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Now, SR540, I thought in da Scouting world we praised in public, reprimanded in private?

 

My intention was similar to puttin' [ADV] in da subject line of an email, eh? It allows all the folks in da forums who have become tired of the sort of debates generated by some of us forum members to easily avoid the thread. Those who are interested in participatin' or lurkin' through that sort of discussion can join in and talk about how one method or another best serves kids creatively, knowing that they might have to sift through some flotsam of being accused of endangering children or bein' lazy about safety if they disagree. Those who want to avoid it can hopefully continue the original thread free of such debate.

 

Kinda like Leave No Trace, eh? Sometimes land managers designate fixed campsites to concentrate negative impact in one area, so as to preserve da rest of the woods. My intention, though, was actually to provide a good place to continue what I thought was an interesting discussion, while allowing a different interesting discussion to continue in the original thread. This thread is about debating whether MBC's can be immediately hands-on even in activities that require attention to safety. Da original thread was about the merits of MB weekends. Seem pretty different to me, eh?

 

Back to topic, though.

 

What Lisabob describes in terms of her kayak lessons is exactly what I was talkin' about. A capable paddling instructor will do exactly what she describes, perfectly safely. She doesn't believe it can be done for shotguns, yet as I mentioned I know some excellent NSCA Level II instructors who do exactly that with boys. The key is to control the environment for safety, not "talk" for safety.

 

And da thing is, as adults responsible for kids, we can't rely on a safety talk, eh? If we're goin' to be responsible, we have to control the environment anyway. So why not dive right in?

 

One way to control the environment is with Patrol Method and Youth Leaders, eh? Not for regular MB counseling necessarily, but for pursuing a badge as a patrol or a unit. So let's say a troop each fall takes a couple of paddling trips. Boys who have been with da troop a couple of years and have moved into PL positions will have developed some degree of skill, eh? They might not yet be proficient in all of da MB requirements, but they will be proficient in some of them. New scouts who are on their first trip benefit from being able to watch the older boys in the patrol, and can be quickly put in a canoe with a patrol-mate who already has some skill (controlling the environment). Older boys who are still workin' on advanced skills to finish the MB are at the same time teachin' basic skills to the younger lads by example and word, and cementing their understanding.

 

Of course, this works best with a mixed-age patrol structure, but it can work fine if a unit is thoughtful about usin' older scout patrol members as servant leaders. Either way, there's an added bonus of da older boys feeling important and responsible, and seeing value in developing their skills.

 

When counseling some badges individually, I'll sometimes take a small group that's mixed like that, eh? Some kids who have been to a few sessions, and add a lad who is just startin' to the mix. It can work really well, yeh just have to be thoughtful about controllin' the environment for the weakest member, safety-wise.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

 

SR540Beaver

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Registered: 10/1/2002

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Posts: 2811

RE: Yet Another BobWhite Thread (teaching MBs)

Posted: Wednesday, 10/29/2008: 11:20:14 AM quality

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jblake,

 

Since I am not a moderator, it is impossible for me to moderate. What I can do is give forum etiquette advice to someone who has crossed the line. A scout is helpful, friendly, courteous and kind and I don't think my post broke any of those laws.

 

Beavah,

 

Typically we do praise in public and reprimand in private. However, since you and a few others continually like to call Bob out and take swipes at him in public, perhaps the best way to get your attention is to do so in public view. We are all adults and I'll express my views openly when I see someone being wronged. A Scout is brave. Bob is a big boy and he doesn't need my protection or defense. That being said, it gets a little old seeing Scouters be petty towards a fellow volunteer who actually takes time to study and know the reference materials and provide factual answers rather than personal opinion of how they think it should be.

 

If I have wronged you, I apologize. All I ask is that you do the same.

 

Gold Winger

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Registered: 10/11/2007

Location:

Posts: 2921

RE: Old uniform - current position

Posted: Wednesday, 10/29/2008: 12:12:18 PM quality

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Hey Beaver which is it? NRA or NSCA?

 

". I've watched good Level 2 NRA instructors hand boy scouts a shotgun and head out on da skeet range, teachin' and coachin' as they went."

 

" I mentioned I know some excellent NSCA Level II instructors who do exactly that with boys."

 

Come on, be consistent.

 

That might be an accepted practice in sporting clays instruction but it surely isn't in NRA instruction.

 

Beavah

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Registered: 6/11/2005

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Posts: 3002

RE: Yet Another BobWhite Thread (teaching MBs)

Posted: Wednesday, 10/29/2008: 12:55:32 PM quality

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BobWhite replies:

 

Lets get back to merit badge counseling in groups, and for the sake of the discussion we will stay with canoeing. The first three requirements pertain to what? Safety, in fact half of the canoeing requirements are safety related, But to suggest that a counselor should take a scout and throw them into a potentially dangerous activity without first covering safety is irresponsible.

 

What LisaBob's kayak instructor does with adults is unrelated to what a merit badge counselor should do when working with other people's children. Your scenario of a shotgun instructor who before anything else oputs a loaded shot gun into someones hands is another example of irrresponsible behavior, not of good counseling.

 

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Yah, Bobwhite, let's keep da debate over here for people. Here's where I think you're getting this wrong.

 

The requirements of a merit badge do not need to be learned or earned in order, eh? Only requirement 3 (swim ability) has to be done "in order", and I reckon I said that, eh?

 

I think if yeh think about it a bit, you might realize that there's a reason why professional kayak instructors and those of us who are trained in watercraft instruction choose to do things da way Lisabob describes. It's because we actually know something about teaching and learning in those fields, eh? If yeh take PowderHorn training, and yeh go out and find a professional outside consultant for your Ship to provide you with canoe or kayak instruction, like as not they're goin' to do what Lisabob and I describe, even for children. Especially for children! I don't really think we're all being unsafe.

 

I certainly agree that someone who is not a capable instructor or is a novice will tend to do what you are talkin' about, eh? Go through da requirements one by one in order, lecture a lot before providin' hands-on experience. I think that's why many summer camps do a relatively poor job on badges, eh? As we all know, a lot of da youth and young adults at camps are novice instructors. Yah, I think a lot of da time what you are describin' as recommendations are the common mistakes of novices.

 

The thing is, when yeh know anything about coaching and teaching yeh realize it's not possible to "cover" safety. Boys don't learn safety when we "cover" it, eh? And learning safety and judgment is all that counts. Instead, we have to provide safety by doing things in a safe environment and proper progression, and allow them to learn safety through example and experience and coaching, eh? Not by "covering" it. A good canoe MB counselor helps kids learn da requirements out of order. A bit here, a bit more here, some more practice there. Generally speakin', safety is the final thing that boys really learn and understand when they're working on a badge like canoeing. It's not really possible to understand safety until yeh have the other basic skills of the discipline, eh? Up until they've learned it, we are providing safety for them.

 

So for canoeing, yeh select good, well-fitting equipment, yeh confirm swim checks, and yeh select a calm, shallow, contained area with good bottom and shoreline that offers unobstructed views. As instructor, yeh paddle a short, whitewater-style boat that allows yeh to get to each student boat easily and quickly within that area. Yeh identify personalities and da level of experience and confidence of each person quickly. And yeh choose an initial progression of activities that is appropriate. Lots of us begin with hand-paddling. Keeps everyone from movin' too fast while getting used to balance and proper position in a boat. Kayakers, of course, begin by flippin' people and doin' boat exits.

 

Same applies to any sport or activity. An experienced instructor who isn't lazy can provide safety by controlling the environment, and enable immediate, hands-on learning because the environment is controlled. That ain't being irresponsible, that's offerin' professional-level responsibility and instruction, rather than novice-level.

 

What would be truly irresponsible is lettin' boys into an environment that's not well controlled just because yeh feel we've "covered" safety through requirements 1, 2, and 3. Seen that a bit too often in Scoutin', to be honest.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, thanks OGE. Sorry to have made it extra work for yeh!

 

BobWhite, I'll give yeh cred for "pithy" for "no responsible instructor teaches safety second."

 

Aside from bein' pithy, though, I think yeh need to make an argument which actually responds to mine, eh?

 

To recap, my claim is:

 

1) "Covering" safety up front is insufficient because a responsible instructor must never assume that all kids "got it." Therefore, providing safety by controlling the environment is necessary.

 

2) It is possible for a qualified and capable instructor to provide safety for a reasonable-sized group of beginners in an activity.

 

3) Because of #2, "covering" safety first is not required, and in fact detracts from the experience of da boys.

 

4) Because safety in an activity requires experience and skill in the activity, followed by developing judgment through doing the activity, safety is in fact the last thing most boys and adults actually become proficient and self-sufficient at, eh?

 

5) Experienced and professional instructors know all this. Beginner instructors and lazy instructors follow da requirements in order, and "cover" safety first like a school class.

 

6) The weak instruction provided by lazy and novice instructors is boring to kids, and doesn't promote real safety. Real safety is not covered or taught first, it is demonstrated and developed continuously through experience and instruction.

 

B

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Beavah 205]

[off topic aside]

 

Yah, instructor levels are part of da shotgun sports associations, eh? NSSA, NSCA, and ATA. In da NRA, there are also levels, but they're called Coaching Levels rather than instructor levels. I always mix up which is which. NRA and da shotgun sports association levels are not equivalent, though. Hard to equate 'em, but I'd guess a NSSA/NSCA Level II is about an NRA Level 3. I was talkin' about that level. I'm sure someone with more experience will correct me if I'm gettin' da level equivalence wrong.

 

Requirements for leveled instructors/coaches are a lot more stringent/well developed than da NRA basic course instructors.

 

B