Bob Birkby

[OldGreyEagle 5]

hey, what is the definition of libel again?

[Kudu 186]

Eagle92 writes:

 

"In reference to Green Bar Bill, how do you know he made incorrect quotes?"

 

Green Bar Bill's quotes are correct.

 

He (not Baden-Powell) was the guy who wrote "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose," and he correctly credits Roland Phillips as the author of "The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method!"

 

It was only AFTER the BSA turned its back on Green Bar Bill and replaced his "how to plan and lead a Patrol Hike" with junk leadership formulas like "Understanding the Characteristics and Needs of the Group and Its Members" that BSA authors started pretending that they had read Baden-Powell.

 

About 12 years ago I started alerting every BSA executive I met about the errors, but it was always somebody else's job. They usually gave me that "somebody else's" phone number, but my follow-up calls were never returned.

 

The director of the historical records department at national headquarters actually asked me who "Baden-Powell" was!

 

Kudu

 

[Eagle92 110]

Kudu,

Thanks for the clarification I thought you were saying that GBB was the one who created the false quotes. That didn't strike me as something that GBB would do.

 

[nolesrule 58]

Changes to the contents of the handbook aside (since they are materially irrelevant), don't you think it's a bit unscout-like to accuse someone of malicious intent in regards to what may have been simply an incorrect attribution without any shred of evidence? It's completely possible that he was provided with a resource containing attributed quotes to be included and that list contained the errors. Or maybe it was just a brain fart.

 

Typos and fact errors make it through multiple levels of editing in the publishing world all the time. It's usually by accident.

 

Having said that, if National is aware of the errors, then they should have seen to it that the errors were corrected for the next printing or edition following the discovery.

 

 

"About 12 years ago I started alerting every BSA executive I met about the errors, but it was always somebody else's job. They usually gave me that "somebody else's" phone number, but my follow-up calls were never returned."

 

I run a website that covers a minor sports league. Every year the league publishes a record and fact book, and every year it contains the same errors (and sometimes more). For over a decade I would notify the people listed as the editors of the book about the errors, and finally I gave up because they wouldn't do anything about it. It can be frustrating.(This message has been edited by nolesrule)

[GaHillBilly 10]

BadenP wrote, "and if Kudu's assertions are correct makes Birkby nothing more than a hack."

 

I don't mean this sarcastically, but I'm not sure that there's any real difference between a 'professional' writer, ie., a writer for hire or free-lancer, and a 'hack'. By definition, they write the stuff their employers want. If they don't, they don't have employers!

 

I think people assume that there's some code of journalistic ethics that apply to professional writers, but AFAIK, that's not true at all. They are simply people who are pretty good at putting readable sentences, paragraphs, and even chapters on paper (or LCD!) about whatever topic they've been hired to write about.

 

In my own experience, these folks rarely know much about the topic -- they think of themselves as WRITERS, maybe even 'technical writers', but not journalists, not Boy Scouts, not park rangers, not lawn mower manufacturers (OR users), etc. If they happen to bring some knowledge about the topic to the task, well and good, but their prior knowledge is rarely essential and always (again, in my experience) shallow.

 

Some of them don't even agree with the stuff they write. One of the best examples of this was a ghost writer by the name of Mel White, who ghost wrote a number of books for well known evangelicals . . . before he came out as a homosexual! By all reports, he was a highly skilled writer and a nice guy. But he was definitely a hack, which has been defined as "a writer or journalist who produces work fast and on a regular basis".

 

Birkby seems to be possibly the same sort of guy (well, I don't mean sexually, since I have zero knowledge about that), who writes the sort of book his employers want.

 

Again, you have to remember that the people 'ordering' these sorts of books are usually more executive types, than 'experts'. So, they aren't in a position to judge how accurate or appropriate the text is.

 

It's a bad process, but typical of many corporate processes which excrete damnable products or services even though every one who contributed to the process is more or less innocent.

 

GaHillBilly

 

[Kudu 186]

nolesrule writes:

 

"don't you think it's a bit unscout-like to accuse someone of malicious intent in regards to what may have been simply an incorrect attribution without any shred of evidence?"

 

No.

 

If this thread was about a Scout who cheated on a BSA indoor classroom Merit Badge, it would inspire pages of rants about the values of Scouting.

 

The point here is NOT the "malicious intent" of Birkby.

 

After a while I stopped trying to correct the fake Baden-Powell quotes in printed BSA literature.

 

In fact I LOVE those fake quotes now because they prove my central point:

 

ALL of the BSA executives at National, ALL of the National Committees, and ALL Wood Badge Staffers HATE SCOUTING...

 

...if you define "Scouting" as the BSA program back when all red-blooded American boys LOVED Scouting.

 

Let me repeat that:

 

Fake Baden-Powell quotes prove that ALL BSA executives, National policy committees, and ALL of the Wood Badge hacks who pawn these national policies off on local volunteers HATE SCOUTING, if you define "Scouting" as the BSA program back when all red-blooded American boys LOVED Scouting.

 

The Scouting that American boys loved was destroyed shortly after Green Bar Bill's retirement when it was dumbed down to the Cub Scout level by adding Position of Responsibility (POR) requirements so that Wood Badge hacks could teach business manager skills to "Junior Leaders," instead of Green Bar Bill's "Patrol Leader Training" course that taught Patrol Leaders how to take their Patrols on hikes and overnights without adult supervision.

 

If even ONE BSA millionaire in Irving Texas had even a PASSING interest in Scouting, he would wonder why Scouting was so popular when Green Bar Bill wrote the Scoutmaster handbooks, and he would curl up with one of Hillcourt's books to see how he did it.

 

The correct quotes are featured PROMINENTLY in these old handbooks. They are impossible to miss. Anyone who reads the old books should recognize the fake Baden-Powell quotes in Birkby's books as being wrong.

 

But BSA millionaires and their Wood Badge Course Directors don't read books from when Scouting was popular. That would be OLD FASHIONED! Old Scouting books don't say anything about business manager skills, now do they?

 

BSA millionaires and Wood Badge hacks don't read Traditional Scouting books, they read business manager books!

 

If an official BSA publication included a fake business manager quote like:

 

You cant talk your way out of what youve behaved yourself into. -- Kenneth H. Blanchard

 

The phones at BSA HQ would ring off the walls!!!!

 

With thousands of Wood Badge Staffers desperately calling to correct the false quote.

 

Because business theory hyped as "leadership" is IMPORTANT!

 

Baden-Powell and Green Bar Bill are NOT important!

 

To a BSA executive (and his Wood Badge Course Directors), Baden-Powell is only good for three things:

 

1) His Scout Law can be interpreted as moral absolutes (you do NOT need outdoor skills to understand moral absolutes!).

 

2) A "Patrol" seems similar to a business work-group (business work-group theory is IMPORTANT!)

 

3) His "we bait our hooks" quote can be used to justify the "future of Scouting" as luring boys indoors to sit in front of computers "side by side with adults of character"

 

Oh, and "Back to Gilwell" is a catchy tune that proves Gilwell was a business work-group camp.

 

You know, TRADITION!

 

The opposite of fake Baden-Powell quotes is the fundamental idea of Traditional Scouting:

 

Rugged outdoor skills used in a Patrol without adult supervision TEACHES VALUES that can NOT be taught in indoor Scout school classrooms or monthly Boy Scout Cub camp.

 

Kudu

 

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[baden 10]

I don't know anything about incorrectly attributed quotes, Texas BSA Millionaires, or evil Wood Badge Staffers.

 

I did, however, go to hear Bob Birkby speak tonight. He presented a 1 hour slide show that began when he was a Boy Scout in Iowa,covered his experiences as a Philmont Staffer, and talked about thru-hiking the Appalacian Trail. The second half covered a trip he made to Russia and his experiences evaluating trail systems in their National Park system this summer. Beautiful photography and a very interesting talk. Mr. Birkby came across as a very nice guy and a real advocate of the Boy Scouts. He hung around the hall after his talk and visited with Scouts, Scouters, and the public. Every Scout that was there should have been inspired by Mr. Birkby. A great evening.