Liability for non-Scouts on outings

[mikecummings157 10]

We are considering having our boys invite friends who are not scouts to join our troop on campouts or other outings to help with recruiting. Does anyone know what our liability is? Will they still be covered under our tour permit if they get hurt?

[FScouter 24]

If you're referring to liability insurance, leaders are "covered" regardless. If you're referring to accident insurance for injury to individuals, boys invited for the purpose of being recruited are "covered" the same as a registered member. Accident insurance is optional so your unit may or may not have it.

 

A tour permit has nothing do to with insurance coverage.

[Bob White 20]

Fscouter is correct but I will refine his answer slightly. Liability coverage is extended to registered adults only, providing they do not do something that could jeopardize it such as breaking a law or purposely ignoring a BSA safety policy.

 

Accident insurance, as FScouter explained is extended to guests who are prospective members. In some councils the accident insurance is provided through the council at no cost to the unit and in some cases the unit must purchase the coverage. So as long as you units has one of these two coverages your guests are always covered.

 

Also as FScouter points out failing to file a Tour Permit will not in itself void your liability protection, but not doing the things that are on the permit potentially could.

[Knot Head 10]

>>>>> Also as FScouter points out failing to file a Tour Permit will not in itself void your liability protection, but not doing the things that are on the permit potentially could.

[FScouter 24]

Insurance is a complicated topic in Scouting. The publications from the national council cannot speak to the insurance policies that the local council, chartered organization, or unit may or may not have. The Guide to Safe Scouting mentions insurance in general terms. See Scouting $$$ Pay Liability Claims:

http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety/GSS.aspx

 

The annual charter agreement has a paragraph about insurance. The various accident policies offered through councils usually have a brochure that talks about coverage and limitations. The tour permit talks about auto insurance for drivers.

 

And of course there is an infinite variation of personal opinions and anecdotes that are heard around the Scouting water cooler and internet chat forums.

 

Probably youre best approach would be to speak to the council professional that handles insurance, not necessarily the girl behind the counter.(This message has been edited by FScouter)

[Bob White 20]

You are free to add whatever questions you would like, but do not assume that your questions will have their answers in the same three resources I used for my questions.

 

Since this is an insurance question it would not be covered in the Boy Scout Handbook, The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, or the Unit Money Earning Application which I used for my questions.

 

This is a risk management question. My source on this comes from my training experiences at Philmont Training Center working with members of the BSA Risk Management staff and other BSA supplemental training courses I have been involved in over the years. The place for you to start would be with your local council office. They will have a person there trained in the BSA Insurance coverages and know how the accident insurance is being handled in your council. Or you can e-mail the BSA Risk Management office and ask them questions directly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, FScouter's answer is the right one, mikecummings157. Your liability for guests on campouts is no different from your liability exposure for your regular scouts. BSA general liability coverage (and BSA accident/medical coverage if you have it), apply if you have guests who are potential recruits.

 

BobWhite inadvertently misstates the terms of BSA general liability coverage, which applies to anyone serving as a leader on a trip including an unregistered parent or other adult. For a registered leader, BSA insurance is primary. For an unregistered adult, BSA insurance is secondary or "excess" coverage after any personal liability insurance is exhausted. For both registered and unregistered adults on trips, therefore, there should be "no worries" about coverage.

 

The biggest message to pass to any leader in the BSA whenever liability or insurance questions come up is that, eh? No Worries. The BSA has your back, and you should proceed with being a scouting volunteer without any concerns about insurance or liability. It's one of our biggest benefits and sellin' points when recruitin' Chartered Partners and adult leaders.

 

And if some trainer or BSA office worker or whatnot makes some claim about "insurance not covering", they're misinformed. Make 'em show you where it says that in the trainin' syllabus or master contract (it doesn't, anywhere). The only things that "void" general liability coverage are when adult leaders intentionally harm children. Things like molesting kids, eh? And that's as it should be.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Bob White 20]

Sorry Beavah but your opinion doee not match the facts shared by the head of BSA Risk Managenment at his PTC presentation a few weeks ago.

 

Liability protection is only given to registered adult volunteers in the BSA and COs.

 

Everyone on a BSA unit activity has accident insurance providing it was either provided by the council to the unit or purchased through the council. In almost every case the accident insurance is secondary and not primary as you suggested.

 

Also, the liability protection can be abandoned if the Scouter is in the commission of ANY crime during the incident. It does not have to be related to harming a child.

 

It is also jeopardized if you are taking part in an activity that has been prohibited by the BSA .

 

Your opionion may differ, but those are the policies of the BSA.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[click23 66]

Bob White, I have no doubt that is what you were told, but this is from the "annual charter agreement"

 

 

 

"Provide primary general liability insurance to cover the chartered organization, its board, officers, chartered organization representative, employees and volunteers currently registered with Boy Scouts of America. Coverage is provided with respect to claims arising out of an official Scouting activity with the exception that the coverage is excess over any insurance which may be available to the volunteer for loss arising from the ownership, maintenance, or use of a motor vehicle or watercraft. This insurance is only available while the vehicle or watercraft is in the actual use of a Scouting unit and being used for a Scouting purpose.

 

The insurance provided unregistered Scouting volunteers through the BSA general liability insurance program is excess over any other insurance the volunteer might have to his or her benefit, usually a homeowners, personal liability, or auto liability policy."

 

(This message has been edited by click23)

[Beavah 205]

Yah, sorry BobWhite. Just because yeh sat in a session at PTC doesn't mean yeh understood the session properly. Nor does it mean that da folks presenting the session understood your question properly, or presented a response as well as they should, eh?

 

If yeh read the Annual Chartering Agreement, you will find that BSA general liability coverage is still extended to unregistered volunteers on an excess basis.

 

If yeh read and have the legal background to understand the BSA master contract with Liberty Mutual and the secondary insurers, you will understand that your claim with regard to the terms and limits of coverage is entirely in error.

 

There are all kinds of reasons for why what you propose would be completely ridiculous in ways that would make BSA insurance of no benefit whatsoever to units or COs, but I'll leave those as an exercise for the reader.

 

mikecummings157 (and everyone else), once again this is not somethin' yeh need to spend any time worryin' about. The BSA maintains coverage so as to allow everyone to do what they do best with kids without havin' to worry about such legal mumbo-jumbo, eh? That's better left to those of us who do that work professionally, not folks who remember hearin' somethin' at a trainin' class for novice volunteers.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Bob White 20]

I will invite Mike to address his questions to the risk management department at the BSA headquarters.

 

Risk management handles among other items the BSA liability protaection program. The Health and Safety department would handle the accident insurance questions. You can e-mail either of them at this link.

 

http://www.scouting.org/Applications/hsquestions.aspx

 

It is an uunfortunate way to discuss a topic when you make a statement and then avaoid giving any evidence to support it. "There are all kinds of reasons for why what you propose would be completely ridiculous in ways that would make BSA insurance of no benefit whatsoever to units or COs, but I'll leave those as an exercise for the reader."

 

First, I did not propose it I shared what we were told by the heads of the Health and Seafty and the Risk Management departments in paerson during a training conference at Philmont. And you knowledge come from where Beavah?

 

Secondly, you suggested the exercise, why don't you start us off by suggesting a scenario where the indidual committing a crime could not have their liabilty protection withdrawn.

 

While I agree it is not worth worrying about ist is worth knowing. For instance not every council supplies the accident insurance to units at no cost, although it is true of the vast majority of councils. In some councils however the unit still needs to purchase accident insurance. If they choose not to then they have no accident insurance. the BSA does not provide it, it must be purchased by the council or by the unit from an outside vendor.

 

You write with great enthusiasm and a cute accent but you are incorrect in your opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, BobWhite, there's a reason why hearsay evidence is inadmissible in court, eh? It's for da reasons you demonstrate so well.

 

The reason I joked about leavin' such things as an exercise for the reader is because this is a Scoutin' forum, eh? Takin' up a lot of bandwidth tryin' to do legal education doesn't seem like a good use of anyone's time.

 

But to get yeh goin', does your automobile liability coverage still protect you when you break a law like the speed limit, runnin' a red light, parking in a no parking zone, drivin' on tires which are bald, etc.? Does the BSA liability coverage still apply for those same things (after your auto coverage is exhausted) if you were drivin' on a BSA trip?

 

Answer: Yes. In fact, if your insurance didn't cover you for such "law breaking" it would be worthless, because generally speakin' a finding of negligence and violatin' some rule, guideline, law, or regulation go hand in hand, eh?

 

BSA insurance isn't worthless, it's an important benefit.

 

If they choose not to then they have no accident insurance. the BSA does not provide it, it must be purchased by the council or by the unit from an outside vendor.

 

In most cases accident/health insurance is already in force for participants because they purchase it individually or it is provided by an employer, and so the low-limit supplemental health care policy through HSR/BSA is irrelevant. It's primarily a backstop for uninsured boys or parents who hold only high-deductible Major Medical policies.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[FScouter 24]

See 157 what I mean about personal opinions? Everybody's got one and if somebody doesn't agree with yours they're either pig-headed or stupid.

[mikecummings157 10]

We are primarily worried about coverage for the potential recruits. The scope of the discussion grew a little, but that's OK. Thanks for everyone's feedback.

[Beavah 205]

Glad we could help, Mikecummings157. Good luck on your recruitin' efforts! Sounds like fun, and a great way to get boys into Scouting.

 

Let us know how it goes, eh? Might be lots of other folks who can learn from what you do!

 

Beavah