What really constitutes "bullying"?

[Beavah 205]

Yah, thanks for the clarification, scoutmomma. I spun off a new thread to discuss some of what I think you're talkin' about. I hope you join that one, too.

 

Returning to the bullying definition, I think da reason I'm against "broadening the definition of bullying if that means our consciousness is raised" is that bullying has taken on a legal character, and that trend is likely to continue. States are passin' laws about this stuff, including mandatory reassignment to an alternative educational program for bullies. School districts are passin' all kinds of policies that are similar. And in G2SS black-letter policy, the BSA associates bullying with things like violence, hazing, and bringing drugs on a campout, and strongly suggests "revocation of membership" as the appropriate response.

 

In that environment, yeh don't want the definition of bullying to be "loose" or "broad". Yeh want the definitions of crimes that trigger serious punishments to be narrow and well-defined. At least I think so, anyway .

 

There's other ways to "raise consciousness," like the Oath and Law and things that call us to proactive positive behavior on behalf of others, without the label and threat of punishment that might not be appropriate for a lad who is just oblivious.

 

What do others think about their definition of "bullying?"

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle732 27]

I asked my 11 y.o. son what bullying means to him. He says Bullies are kids who are bigger than you and are mean to you or push you around. Some kids are bullies some times but one kid (on our troop) is mean a lot

[Eamonn 61]

I think someone, I'm unsure who? (I think it was a Judge??) said that he couldn't define pornographic material, but knew it when he seen it.

Much the same can be said about bullying.

While I agree that not everything that is perceived as being unfair or not right is always bullying.

As we know sometimes kids and adults are not always kind.

Sometimes things are just the way they are.

When picking teams for a game where each team leader selects one player at a time, someone has to be the last person selected. This last player might feel bad that he is the last person to be selected, but the truth is that someone has to last, just as someone has to be first. However when the team leader makes a comment about having to have this last person on his team, such as "Oh no we got you!" This might be seen as a mild form of bullying.

"Put downs" can be a form of bullying. Even if they are true. Telling little Tim that he is only good enough to get the water at camp because he can't cook. Might be true, but how the message is delivered comes into play.

I have had Patrol Leaders who have tried to rule the roost by being a bully, using threats and intimidation to lead their Patrol.

Sometimes this does get the job done! Rarely if ever do the threats end resulting in being anymore than just talk. Still as a SM or adult leader I know that this is not the way things ought to be and step in. Mainly by talking with the PL and explaining the error of his ways.

To my mind the bold print in the G2SS deals with more malicious bullying, where the intend and the result is where someone is harmed and the person doing the bullying has the intent of doing harm.

Eamonn

[Stosh 3452]

Gee Eamonn, with that being said, where do those boys learn such bullying tactics? From their parents who are always saying, "Do it my way OR ELSE..."

 

I don't always see giving directions even in an intimidating manner is bullying.

 

Eagle732's son expressed it the best when he indicates there's a tone of meanness to the demand.

 

And yet there is not one SM on this forum that would think nothing of using extreme intimidation at certain times. i.e. safety precaution for the welfare of another individual. This is ok because it does not have what Eagle732's son indicates - meanness.

 

Stosh

[Eamonn 61]

Stosh,

I'm not sure where kids learn to become bullies.

Some might learn it from the example set by their parents, some might learn it from other kids or from having been bullied?

 

RE: " don't always see giving directions even in an intimidating manner is bullying."

Each case needs to be looked at looked at on its own.

But the idea of a PL ordering the patrol members to do it or they run the risk of him beating them up?

Does seem to me to be a clear case of bullying.

We the adults do need to step in and see what can be done to change his "Style of leadership". It clearly is not the style that we want or require in Scouting.

I see it much the same as the Leader who tells a Scout who has done something that doesn't seem right to sing a silly song or do push ups.

Eamonn.

 

 

[Stosh 3452]

This is exactly right, but then it begs the question of who draws the line on the definition. If the definition, intent, purpose of bullying is vague at best, and the BSA sets a policy, where does it draw the line. Like the zero-tolerance policies so in vogue today, I would hate to see a boy drummed out of scouting in the same way a kindergarten kid gets a 3 day suspension in school because his mom put a table knife in with his birthday cake treat so the teacher could cut the pieces.

 

If this sounds ridiculous to anyone, maybe a sense of caution be used before setting down policies that can in fact turn more kids away from scouting than it attracts. After all if we are supposed to be tolerant of others, how does one justify zero-tolerant policies.

 

A "Each case needs to be looked at looked at on its own." will not fly with a written-in-stone policy of any sort.

 

Tough issue to deal with and bring fairness and justice to the table.

 

Stosh

 

[Eamonn 61]

Maybe I'm missing something?

As I see it before any Scout is asked to leave a unit or has his membership revoked we follow a process which involves a fair amount of people.

Scoutmasters deliver the program and matters that could result in a Scout being asked to leave should be dealt with by the Troop Committee.

The Troop Committee decide what the tolerance will be on a case by case basis.

If an adult leader is ignoring or worse encouraging bullying they could take steps to remove him or her.

Sometime back Barry posted that for the Scouts a Troop is the real world made smaller or down sized to boy size (Help me out here Barry - I think I have it right?)

Our Scouts learn not only from what they do well or do right they also learn as much from what goes wrong and from what they do wrong.

So when Mr. PL orders little Tim to get the water or he is going to beat him up! We the adults can explain to Mr. PL that this is not the best way to go about getting things done.

If on the other hand he repeatedly beats up little Tim, we need to involve the Troop Committee and leave it in their capable hands. They have he G2SS to use as a reference.

Eamonn

[Beavah 205]

But the idea of a PL ordering the patrol members to do it or they run the risk of him beating them up? Does seem to me to be a clear case of bullying.

 

Hey, George, I need you to clean up your tent.

 

I don't want to!

 

Yeah, George, I know that, but I need you to do it anyway. Could you do that, please?

 

Who cares what you need? It's not what I need.

 

Well, George, I figure it would help you out, too, since your underwear wouldn't be full of mud and you'd look like an older, cool scout. Do you notice how all the older scouts have neater tents?

 

They do not! Bobby has a messy tent. I don't care about them anyways! Scouting is stupid. Anybody who stays in it when they're older is gay.

 

Hey! Stop it with the name-calling! Whether you care about them or not, you have to clean up your tent or you can't come to the patrol campfire tonight.

 

Oh yeah! You can't make me! You're not my boss! You're just another gay older scout.

 

Well, yes I can make you. Just watch and see.

 

Screw you, Bill, you can't tell me what to do just because you're bigger than me! That's bullying! bullying! bullying! I'll get you thrown out of Boy Scouts for that!

 

:)

 

Yes, our older scouts don't always use the best leadership styles, eh? That can be something to work on.

 

But sometimes, especially in a same-age patrol structure, they can face challenges that we as adults would never face. A defiant patrol member spoilin' for a fight. A self-conscious peer who refuses to take direction. They're kids, and they're learnin'.

 

Policy is like a club. It's a blunt instrument. Swingin' a club around is usually not the thing to do when people are learnin'.

 

Yah, we hope that a rational committee or CO would exercise good judgment, eh? But we see even here on the forums that many folks think "a policy is a policy", a 'bully' must go, better safe than sorry, etc.

 

Beavah

 

[evmori 11]

I'm glad I wasn't drinking coffee when I read that, Beav, cause I woulda spewed it out my nasal passages! That was funny!

 

BTW, which one was the bully?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Lisabob 13]

But sometimes, especially in a same-age patrol structure, they can face challenges that we as adults would never face. A defiant patrol member spoilin' for a fight. A self-conscious peer who refuses to take direction. They're kids, and they're learnin'.

 

Boy do I see and hear a lot of this sort of thing, especially among younger scouts. I am thankful that things seem to improve a little with age because one frustration I know my (now early teenage) son has had with being PL is that sometimes you really can't make your age/grade peers do anything they simply do not want to do. Everybody wants to be "independent" and nobody is willing to follow another's lead.

[stevejb 10]

From the scouting.org website:

 

"A bully is someone who wants to hurt another person. Bullying can be physical, verbal, emotional, social, behavioral, or any combination. Bullying can also take place just about anywhere: on the bus, at school, at soccer practice, even online, via the Internet. However, bullying can be stopped. Help put an end to the bullying by taking action first yourself.

 

* If ignoring the bully doesn't work, stand up for yourself with words. Rehearse what you want to say to that you will feel in control of your emotions when you confront the bully.

* Tell the bully how hurtful it feels to be bullied, and ask why you are the target. Ask the bully to stop.

* Sometimes, agreeing with the bully and having a ready response will work ("So what if I have a face full of zits. What's it to you?").

* Hang out with a couple of friends; try not to be alone.

* Tell an adult you trust, such as a parent, teacher, or coach."

 

This requirement is described on page 57 of the 2008 edition of the Boy Scout Handbook.

 

 

Seems to me it is spelled out for us.