Plege of Alliegence

[mdutch 10]

As it is not a requirment to be a US Citizen to be in BSA, occassionally a troop will get non-citizen's as youth members. In my crew we open the meetings with the Plege of Allegience. What do non-citizens normally do while that is going on? This became more of an issue at my meeting this evening, because normally the President leads the pledge. Tonight, the president was absent so the Admin VP was filling in (he is the non-citizen) and he was expected to lead it. After we were all standing, the advisor who realized the situation, started it for him. Any ideas on how we can deal with this in the future?

 

[Hunt 11]

People who are not U.S. citizens should stand respectfully while the Pledge is being recited, but there is no reason for them to join in. In addition, some religions do not believe in reciting the Pledge, and their views should be respected as well. I don't think a non-citizen should be expected to lead the Pledge, either. Such things should be handled matter-of-factly. "Since I'm not a U.S. citizen, I will ask Joe to lead you in the Pledge of Allegiance."

[hendrickms24 20]

"Tonight, the president was absent so the Admin VP was filling in (he is the non-citizen) and he was expected to lead it. After we were all standing, the advisor who realized the situation started it for him. Any ideas on how we can deal with this in the future?"

 

I have never been a Venture Scout but I sure its not required that the President or VP has to lead the Pledge. Just let another scout lead the pledge would be my answer.

 

Mark Maranto

 

[Eamonn 61]

I am not an American citizen.

From the very limited research I have done it seems that it is up to the individual.

He can as Hunt states:stand respectfully while the Pledge is being recited, or if he wishes he can salute the Flag and not say the words.

On the rare occasion that someone has at the very last second (When everyone is standing up!!) asked me to lead the pledge, I normally just ask someone else to do it.

We did a few activities with Americans while I lived in England. At one camp site where there was an American school near by and a BSA troop who used the site a lot we had two flag poles of the same size, and two flags of approx the same size. At Flag ceremonies we would raise both flags at the same time. Which was a change for the British Scouts who normally Break the Union Flag.

At a RAF base where there was a lot of American servicemen, I noticed that they stood to attention with the RAF guys and both the USAF and the RAF saluted while both National anthems were played.

On September 12,2001 Queen Elizabeth II planned a special Changing of the Guard ceremony at Buckingham Palace on Thursday to honor the victims of the attacks. A military band played the American national anthem, which was followed by two minutes of silence.

This was the first time the national anthem of another country was ever played outside of Buck House.

Eamonn.

 

 

[ilduncans 10]

One easy part, and one hard part to this question.

 

Pretty straight forward on the decorum aspect of this question ... a non-citizen should properly do the same thing Americans do when the Canadian national anthem is played at a baseball or hockey game, or when the colors of any nation are presented in a flag ceremony -- the same thing everyone does during the gold medal ceremony at the Olympics (no matter which nation's anthem is played) -- and the same thing anyone should do when a foreign head of state enters the room -- (and the same thing you'll be pressured to do if you happen to visit Oklahoma, and they happen to sing the title theme of the Rogers & Hammerstein musical by the same name ... go figure!):

 

You stand up, not as a show of allegiance, but of respect. This is well-established decorum the world over, giving us a moment of commonality where we can respect the things they respect, and they can respect the things we respect.

 

In the US military (and most others, though I can't attest to all), foreign heads of state are entitled to a salute. (Yes, that means the Pope is entitled to a salute, regardless of your religious persuasion). In Flag ceremonies, it is absolutely appropriate that the respective colors be presented or raised together, although the home nation is displayed to the right, in the position of honor. Similarly, when national anthems are to be sung, the home nation is sung first.

 

Now the harder part ...

The leadership position, and more generally, the idea of leading a flag ceremony changes things just a bit, and I confess I am torn just a bit on the topic. On the one hand, my opinion is that the youth has accepted a leadership position in an organization that is honor-bound to do their duty to _this_ country, not the country of your choice.

 

In my opinion, for someone who has actively chosen to register with the BSA, when we recite the Scout Oath (or equavalent for Venturing or Cub Scouts), "God and my country" refers exclusively to the USA. Even non-citizen residents have some duties to the USA [our laws, our taxes, etc.], and it is to these duties that the Oath refers. This would obviously be different for a visitor representing another Scout organization outside the BSA.

 

On the other hand, the Pledge of Allegiance goes well beyond the Scout Oath. This is, in fact, an oath of allegiance to a foreign government (*poof* -- your passport, and citizenship in your home country is now invalid).

 

There is some precedent for leading such things as part of a ceremony without loss of citizenship. (At a baseball game, the same person typically sings both national anthems, e.g., and this doesn't amount to changing one's citizenship -- only leading a ceremony. Likewise for a military detail leading a flag ceremony with the colors of more than one nation).

 

If the youth is comfortable leading the Pledge of Allegiance, then I'd suggest writing a letter to his embassy to inquire on this situation. Frankly. I'd be interested to know what they had to say.

 

The path of least resistance I think is clear, however, and I very much like the approach Eamonn described as a reasonable compromise -- handled without calling undue attention, and without creating an international incident. At least for the duration of the flag ceremony, someone else can be the leader.

 

In any case, the situation deserves to be treated with appropriate discretion. For my part, I would certainly want to err on the side of welcoming our international guests, while respecting commonly understood decorum. If the circumstances create discomfort, then avoiding the circumstances is the path of least resistance, as Eamonn described, or otherwise.

 

[Eamonn 61]

Kinda getting off topic, but I hope meamemg will understand.

While a Webelos Scout Den Leader, I worked with the Webelos Scouts on the Citizenship Activity Pin. Someone asked how I could do that. I explained that my Son, who was at that time a Webelos Scout, is an American and my wish for him is that he will grow up to be a upstanding fine American citizen. In fact my wish for all the youth I deal with is that they all become fine upstanding citizens.

Eamonn.