Committee members and Assistant Scoutmasters

[Adrianvs 10]

Some questions that I have had came to mind as I was reading the committee vote thread. In some troops I have seen, registered committee members have functioned just like assistant scoutmasters in the troop program. I was wondering about the proper roles of each. We know that scoutmasters don't have a vote or formal say or whatever in committee meetings and they are discouraged from sitting on BOR's (prohibited?). But I don't see any "restrictions" on committee members relating to assistant scoutmaster roles. In practice, they seem just like assistant scoutmasters with a vote on the committee. Is this proper?

I know that there are many "parental only" type committee members and chairs who don't wear the uniform or those that have a limited role in troop activities, but I am referring to those that don't. At this point, it looks like committee members are just scoutmasters with extra abilities. I assume that there are different roles listed officially, but I haven't seen this in practice. What is the point of registering as an assistant scoutmaster if you can do as much and more as a committee member (or chair)?

[JimmyD 10]

Well in our troop all the adults are considered "Leaders". Yea your bascally right that CM have more power i guess you could say then an ASM. ASM use to be able to sit on boards awhile back i think but they did away with that and only allowed CMs too didn't make sense still doesn't. When this occured we had some ASM's switch over to CMs so we wouldn't have issues with boards and this way we had plenty of people to contact and we wouldn't have to reley on 6 people for example. Yes they all have different responsibilties but on camp outs for example what is a CM going to do just sit there all day? Also another difference is that CMs must be 21 and over while ASMs can be 18 and over. Which also makes no sense. So inconclusion more questions with some answers.

[Proud Eagle 13]

I don't know for certain what the book says, but I do know what is common practice in my experience.

 

I think every board of review I appeared before contained ASMs. I also know that I have served on several boards of review as an ASM. This may not be the way it is supposed to work, but it seems to be common practice in my area. Conversations with other adults indicates this is the norm in most units. I think it is because the average CM is usually just a parent who doesn't have a clue what is going on while the ASMs at least have some idea what the Scouting program is supposed to be. I know just this year I was on several boards made up of the Scoutmaster, the Committee Chairman, and I.

 

I am not certain, but I think at least one of the members of every board we have done in recent memory was a CM. We briefly had a committee of dedicated members who had some history in, and understanding of, Scouting. However, that is no longer the case. Now we have a few old members on the list that don't ever show up, and some newer parents that are still learning. (The CC is the exception. He is a relatively new parent, but he is dedicated. Also, he is an Eagle, so he already knew the basic concept of Scouting.)

[Fat Old Guy 11]

There is a local troop that requires any parent who wants to sit on a BOR to go to Scoutmaster school I'm impressed by that. They had six in my class.

 

We just require they they register and do Fast Start.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"ASM use to be able to sit on boards awhile back i think but they did away with that and only allowed CMs too didn't make sense still doesn't"

 

Actually, the SM and ASM have been excluded from BORs for a long time, if not forever. A while back, the BOR was composed of people from the community, not just committee members.

 

There is a very good reason that the SM or ASM isn't supposed to sit on a BOR. A BOR is supposed to do much more than just rubber stamp advancements. One of the functions of the BOR is to determine how well the program is running which relates to how well the SM is doing his job.

[FScouter 24]

A board of review gives a boy a chance to talk with adults that he doesn't normally deal with. It gives the committee a chance to see how the program is working for the boys. And also to get some feedback on how good a job the SM and assistants are doing.

 

The board of review loses much of it's purpose if the board includes assistant Scoutmasters. All the literature says the board is comprised of committee members, not the SM or assistants.

[acco40 95]

Very briefly, the SM and SAs work with the boys. The CC and CMs work with each other to to support the program (the boys). Not BSA literature talks about votes.

 

Now with a shortage of leaders or with a very small troop, many unofficially serve "double duty" so to speak. As for BORs, non-scouters (parents, community members, teachers, etc.) may serve on BORs but they should have a good knowledge of the Scouting program itself. Because one of the functions of the BOR is to gather information about how the BSA experience is working for the boys (one facet is the interaction with the SM and SAs), it is discouraged (although not outrighted banned I believe) for the SM or SAs to serve on BORs.

[Bob White 20]

Sorry Acco, but I'm 99.99% sure that the Advancemnt Policies and Procedures manual calls for Troop Committee members for all the ranks through Life Scout. Only the Eagle boards can have others on it.

 

Since all units must have a Committee chair and two committee members there is no reason why a any unit, regardless of size, would not be able to meet this requirement.

 

Bob

[mk9750 11]

Bob,

 

I ask this seriously, to learn something, not sarcstically. What is the rationale behind the two extra Committee Members? Is it strictly to make a BOR available, or are there other reasons?

 

Not an issue in my Troop, but I'm just curious.

 

Mark

[Bob White 20]

It's not really two additional, it's just two. You cannot have a committee of one. The BSA has determined the minimal number of adult leaders in order for a unit charter to be valid.

 

The requirements are different for troops, packs and crews. One element that is the same among all three is the make-up of an adult committee. The BSA requires that for a charter to be in force the unit must have a committee chairperson and at least two committee members.

 

From the advancement side, Board of Reviews are required to be conducted by a board made of troop committee members. There is a minimum of three set for the Boards. That makes boards workable for any size troop. Eagle Scout Boards are the only exception.

 

I hope this answers your question.

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"Sorry Acco, but I'm 99.99% sure that the Advancemnt Policies and Procedures manual calls for Troop Committee members for all the ranks through Life Scout"

 

This is true but, from statements in old Handbooks, it wasn't always the case. In some ways it makes sense to go outside the troop for a BOR. The grocer and police chief might be less inclined to advance a kid because "he tries hard" than the parents of other Scouts. Also, we have quite a few Eagle Scouts in my community that I think would make great additions to BORs but they aren't currently registered.

 

 

[dsteele 20]

I can only offer opinion and base knowledge as to the difference between Committee Members (the correct BSA code is MC) which is because in the Boy Scouts of America, CM is the code for Cubmaster.

 

The requirement for having a minimum of two committee members, in my opinion (having started more than 50 new units in my career) is to make sure that there is enough support for the unit to be a viable unit. That's also why you need at least 5 boys to charter.

 

I can also tell you that the BSA uses the word "Assistant" meaning support to the second title. In other words, my job as Assistant Scout Executive is to assist the Scout Executive however he sees fit (within the rules, of course.)

 

Under that description, the job of an Assistant Scoutmaster is to support the Scoutmaster's job of developing the boys into leaders. This does not make the Scoutmaster all powerful, I believe any good Assistant should make suggestions to the guy/gal on the line. It would apply similarly to the job of Assistant Patrol leader -- his job is to support the patrol leader in building the patrol.

 

The committee members more closely resemble members of the council executive board (which also must exist in order for the council to get a charter.) The executive board of a council (and the troop committee) exist to support and supervise the activities and programs of the council or unit respectively.

 

I think that Assistant Scoutmasters can be present at boards of review, in support of the Scoutmaster. Like the Scoutmaster, they have no vote. I think the reason is that they're too close to the boy and take pride in any achievement he may achieved. In short, they're more biased than committee members.

 

I also know that this line becomes blurred at times, especially if you have a very active committee (which is a good thing to have.)

 

Those are my thoughts.

 

DS

[Adrianvs 10]

All the reasons for excluding or limiting Scoutmasters (and assistants) in BOR's makes sense. That wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to when these reasons don't apply because committee members behave just like assistant scoutmasters. They are just as close to the scouts, just as involved in "running" the program, etc. I take it the idea is that these committee members work with themselves and scoutmaster to support the program, but this just isn't the practice much of the time.

 

I don't know how common this, it usually comes to mind when I find out that some scouter I know is really a committee member and not an Asst Scoutmaster. In most cases, there are enough "nonscoutmastering" adults to form the committee. It just turns out that half the assistant scoutmasters are really committee members. We all understand the issue of scoutmasters behaving like committee members. I want to understand committee members acting as assistant scoutmasters. Bob, is there something official on this. Yes, the books require committee members in all BOR's. But, what is the purpose if they are indistinguishable from scoutmasters?

[dsteele 20]

This message has been edited by DSteele.

 

Go ahead and ask Bob if there's anything official. I wish to point out that while most BSA official publications are readily available, sometimes for the cost of printing and sometimes free, to all volunteers, they are all available to professionals for free. When you've got one hanging around who answers questions on a regular basis, why not ask him? Am I wrong that often -- when asked for an official source?

 

I'm sorry -- I'm a bit on edge from having my Scout Executive question plans that were laid before him months ago and enacted upon by me and the fact that he doesn't seem to be able to admit (after seeing the smooth reality) that his concerns were not only answered, but invalid to begin with. He has caused more stress in my running of the council popcorn and wreath sale this fall than anyone else combined in the council.

 

At any rate, the question was left to Bob and I'll let him answer it. No offense to Adiranvs or to Bob. None taken by you guys from me.

 

I'm tired and have to be at the popcorn warehouse in six hours. If you need my help, just ask.

 

DS

[dsteele 20]

I apologize for the above post from me. I have a lot of respect for Bob White and have never found him to be wrong in his reporting of Scouting policies. I hope my previous post did not read that way.

 

I understand that I am relatively new to these forums and that Bob White has been around a lot longer and posted many more times than I have. It's natural that people will ask him a question about something in a scouting manual and forget that there's a professional who is dedicated to be here who can also help.

 

I enjoy helping to provide insight into policy and sometimes philosophy and feel I've got a bit to offer. I'm not in this for career advancement, competition, etc. I'm in this for many of the same reasons you're involved in the scouting program -- it makes me feel good to do something good for scouters on my own time and just because I want to.

 

Please, take advantage of me.

 

DS