all is well with scouting, except a 30% decline in boys life subscriptions

[brianbuf 10]

I talked with an ad rep that sells ads in all the scouting magazines. They have a publicly available circulation card they base their advertising prices off. They update that every few years. Their last revision, they had to decrease the number of BOYS LIFE subscriptions on their rate card by 30%! This shows a huge, multi-year decline that can not be explained by one council's over inflated numbers, or cleaning up some old rolls.

 

There are some that want to bury their heads in the sand and think scouting is fine because it is the program THEY like as leaders. Often, they forget that scouting is about the BOYS.

 

Scouting needs a make over, while keep ing the values and lessons. Some would disagree. To them I ask, how much smaller does scouting need to be before something is done?

 

If BP started scouting today, it would not look like the scouting we are trying to hold on to... it would be new, modern, and use icons from our era. I know this because this is the pattern he used.. icons from his day, not 50 or 100 years before his time.

 

 

[ScoutNut 147]

Instead of crying about the sky falling because of a decline in magazine subscriptions, consider some alternative explanations.

 

Maybe more families don't have the money for magazines.

 

Maybe less NON-SCOUTS subscribe.

 

Maybe the BOYS share their copy with their BROTHERS.

 

Maybe the BOYS just don't like the magazine!

 

Unless you have interviewed a significant statistical percentage of the people who have dropped their subscriptions to find out WHY they have canceled them, you really should not ASSUME that because a subscription is canceled it automatically means that a corresponding BSA membership was also canceled.

 

If we are going to make unsubstantiated assumptions, while I agree that BSA memberships have indeed declined, I prefer the assumption that says that the decline in magazine subscriptions is due more to the fact that the economy is going to heck in a hand-basket & more folks are cutting back on what they consider superfluous things - like magazines.

[BrentAllen 10]

Pardon me, but I don't think brian has a clue what he is talking about. I don't know what his real goal is here, but if he wants to save a Scouting organization that is failing, he should look north to Scouts Canada.

 

I'm curious what icons, characters or other materials B-P used which were based on his time, and are outdated today - the ones that are causing Scouts to drop in droves? Is it Akela? Akela and The Jungle Book are used in Cub Scouts, not Boy Scouts or Venturing. A modern version of The Jungle Book was made not too long ago - doesn't that make it modern?

Our current uniform looks very similar to the Marines, just as B-P's original uniform was similar to their military uniform. So, what other icons are outdated? Patrol names? This I want to hear. Were the animals B-P chose for Patrol names just discovered in 1907, or were they around for thousands of years, like the Bear, the Wolf and the Bobcat?

 

Yes, ask the boys what they want today, and it will be sitting in front of the tv playing X-Box, or computer games. Are you going to build a Scouting program around those two activities? Might as well start asking the kids in school what subjects they want to study, and if they want to do homework!

How is a boy going to know if he likes caving or canoeing or rock climbing unless he gets out and tries it?

Nearly every Pack in our District had a great recruiting season - we are up 35% to 125 boys, the largest we have ever been. Most other Packs are up at least 20 - 25%. Please explain how your theory of outdated icons is causing drops elsewhere, but not here. We are using the same uniforms, the same books as everyone else.

 

You know what the favorite Den game is of my son's Den - the one they always request? It is a game my Scoutmaster invented over 30 years ago, which he named Chinese Bowling. The Den divides into 2 teams, each lined up facing each other, about 10 - 12' apart. Each boy stands over a bowling pin. Gym balls are placed in the center, between the two teams. At the whistle, they run out and grab the balls, and return to their pin. The goal is to throw the balls underhanded and knock down the other team's pins, while protecting your own. Balls can only be thrown while standing over your pin. They love this game, just as we did when I was his age. I guess we shouldn't be playing it, since it is so old. I guess we shouldn't be playing baseball, since that game is so old as well - older than Scouting. Same thing with football, soccer and basketball. Gee, that doesn't leave a whole lot - what new, modern games are out their? Arena football? Laser tag? Paintball? Grand Theft Auto on X-Box? Philmont is getting pretty old - should we toss it?

 

I'm glad he ins't a leader in my son's unit.

[brianbuf 10]

"Maybe the BOYS just don't like the magazine! "

 

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. My point exactly... not specifically with the magazine, it actually is pretty good per my boys, but with the program as it sits today.

 

go ahead and watch the program shrivel around you while the old timers ignore the shrinking problem. I am trying to save scouting and make it relevant, without loosing the values.

 

 

[brianbuf 10]

"Maybe the BOYS just don't like the magazine! "

 

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. My point exactly... not specifically with the magazine, it actually is pretty good per my boys, but with the program as it sits today.

 

go ahead and watch the program shrivel around you while the old timers ignore the shrinking problem. I am trying to save scouting and make it relevant, without loosing the values.

 

 

[brianbuf 10]

Pardon me, but I don't think brian has a clue

Boy, are there only 3 or 4 posters on this entire site?  Seems like you are following me around to every thread, attacking me.  The above is below the belt.  It seems to me you are a terrible example of the values scouting teaches.  Dissagree, yes, but you did not need to personally attack me.  You are out of line.

 

 

I'm curious what icons, characters or other materials B-P used which were based on his time, and are outdated today - the ones that are causing Scouts to drop in droves?

All spelled out at www.savescouting.org

 

  Our current uniform looks very similar to the Marines, just as B-P's original uniform was similar to their military uniform.

This is a joke, right?  Neckercheifs, woggles, dangling patches that go over a button, red troop numbers on the arm... sound Marine ish to me.

 

 

So, what other icons are outdated? Patrol names? This I want to hear.

see the website, but bobwhites come to mind. 

 

. Please explain how your theory of outdated icons is causing drops elsewhere, but not here. We are using the same uniforms, the same books as everyone else.

And we have more trained leaders following the program than ever before, cranking out thousands of NEW woodbadge trained leaders each year... and our numbers are dropping.  You explain the dropping, you make a website, and you suggest solutions and the rest of us will take pot shots at you and say to each other about you, as you did about me, "I'm glad he ins't a leader in my son's unit."

[SR540Beaver 116]

Brian,

 

While some responses have been less than friendly, consider your own actions. You've come here and started multiple threads that bascially say the same thing over and over. That is known as spamming in the message board world and isn't looked on too kindly. Also, you are looking for responses and then arguing with the responses. People such as myself have provided you kind answers that you are choosing to ignore. I don't remember which of your threads I posted under, but I told you how successful our troop is. It is successful because we take time to implement the program AS designed and let the boys lead it. That is what BSA INDEED teaches. When the boys lead, the program is relevant regardless of the external trappings. There is little to save, but much to implement. Boy led still is and always has been relevant to "today" or "yesterday's" youth just as it will be 40 years from now.

 

BP called scouting a game with a purpose. Boys learn to be better men without even realizing it by having FUN. When boys lead within the framework of scouting, they have fun. Don't fix what ain't broke. Just use the program as designed and get out of the boy's way.

[BrentAllen 10]

Hey brian, saying I don't think you have a clue is an opinion, not an attack.

 

Check this photo and see if you see an similarities between the BSA uniform and the Marines. Sure, there isn't a neckerchief (which is optional) but the colors are close to the same, they wear their awards in a similar manner (except for hanging them from a button, which is, again, optional). They even wear cords around their shoulder, just like we do. http://www.odcmp.com/Photos/06/NTT/dsc_0282.htm

 

I didn't realize the bobwhite was only discovered since 1910. I guess I learn something new every day. BTW, who says the boys in your Troop have to chose to be the Bobwhite Patrol?

 

The program is working fine for us - not just our unit, but our district and our council. Our summer camps are full, we have waiting lists for high adventure trips - excuse me if I don't agree with you that the program needs a major overhaul.

 

Our next Pack meeting is next Tuesday, where we have Steve "The SnakeMaster" Scruggs coming in with all his snakes. Some of the boys will get to hold the non-venomous snakes. He brings out timber rattlers, western diamondbacks and easter diamondbacks. He opens their mouths and shows the size of the fangs. All the while, he is teaching safety, first aid, and leave no trace. This is a repeat performance from last year - the boys have been asking me all summer when his coming.

 

In November, we are having the only Georgian to ever compete and complete the Iditarod come make a presentation. He brings his sled, equipment and 3 dogs for the boys to see, along with PowerPoint and footage of his race. Afterwards, he sets up a race course in the gym. Each den has a clothes basket for a sled, which the Den Leader rides in. The boys in the den pull the sled by rope, and race each other around the course.

 

Do you think boys will be interested in these programs? Are the subjects relevant to today's boys? Will they consider them fun? Do you think they will tell their friends about them?

 

Simple rules for Scouting:

KISMIF - Keep it simple. Make it fun.

Make it exciting.

Instill a sense of adventure in the boys.

 

These things work. Changing the uniform to be "modern" won't make a difference. Changing Akela to Buzz Lightyear won't make a difference.

I'm not going to start a web page advocating change because I don't see a need for it.

[Beavah 205]

Stale jerky.

 

After takin' Brian to task for making hyperbolic claims, a bunch of others make hyperbolic claims.

 

Brian, just so you know, there has been a major decline in subscriptions over the last few years for ALL magazines, from Time and Newsweek on down. It is a concern for the whole industry, and certainly is not unique to Boys' Life. So odds are the BL subscription decline has little to do with the BSA program and more to do with changing societal trends in terms of media.

 

SR540 and others, just because one troop or one council in one part of da country is doing well, doesn't mean that there aren't growing weaknesses in the program on average. There will always be outliers. There will always be the one inner city school that is doing uniquely well, even if the majority are failing. Pointing to the one that is workin' and claiming that everything is therefore OK isn't good form either.

 

And we all learn more by listenin' and questionin' than shoutin'.

 

[SR540Beaver 116]

Beavah,

 

Best practices. Take what is working, duplicate it and tweak it for your environment. A given unit's success has a reason for its success and a given unit(s) failure has a reason for its failure. Our troop does nothing unique with the BSA program to be a success. We simply follow the program. What works for us can be mass produced. The majority of units who are being less than successful are the ones who are either don't know the program, don't understand it or are trying to reinvent the wheel. BSA offers a framework that can be tweaked for any given environment.

[evmori 11]

Brent,

 

I agree. He doesn't have a clue. All Brian has is empty complaints and no answers. He wants to change the uniform & icons of Scouting & he thinks that will fix what's wrong. That's like giving a car that needs a new transmission a new coat of paint & not fixing the real problem.

 

I really don't see to many problems. Sure there are some areas that need updating but as a whole, the BSA is a good organization for boys.

 

I wonder what the rest of his ticket was like!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Beavah 205]

I hear ya, SR540, and I agree to a point. But I don't buy the "mass produced" bit when we're talkin' about human resources and not manufacturing. My company can buy a second, identical milling machine. My troop can't buy a second, identical SM.

 

Your unit has some very special adult resources, but the personal and organizational talents of your SM or CC are not easily cloned. Your unit apparently has some good fiscal resources as well. You're in an area of da country that's doin' OK economically, and that may be more culturally supportive of Scoutin', where others may not have that. Your unit has a many-year history, but a new or restarted unit won't.

 

That y'all can pick up the BSA program and make it work successfully in your area is a tribute to you, but not necessarily to the program. It is only a "proof of concept" in terms of the program. Like a Stamp Collecting Club, it can be successful given the right market and the right people. But that doesn't mean that if yeh try to set up the same kind of Stamp Collecting Club somewhere else, or even try to start a second one in the same town, that it won't fall flat on its face for lack of (market) interest.

 

Da concern is that our real market is shrinkin', eh? And that's a legitimate, and quite probably accurate, concern.

 

[Eamonn 61]

I was talking with a very nice Lady.

She is an RN and the Director of Nursing for a Rehabilitation Center.

She found out I was involved in Scouting.

She said that she has two boys.

One to her first husband. a Lad who she said was really into Scouting and went on to become an Eagle Scout.

She has a little fellow to her second husband. It seems he came home with a paper informing them about Sign-up Night. The little Lad wanted to join Cub Scouts. She said that there was no way she was going through that all again!! So she promised the Lad a Fish if he didn't join Cub Scouts.

Of course there is nothing scientific about this story. It could well be an isolated case? I don't know.

I did question the very large drop in the number of Venturers in the NE-Region. I was told that most of the number came from 3 Councils!!

I know that in the Council I serve, when we had the 2% growth a shall we say very ambitious Field Director signed up an entire HS Grade as a Venturering unit, about 650 kids. They were moved from Venturering to LFL.

Movement of numbers like this while they should never have been allowed in the first place do give false information.

Most of the loss of membership seems to be in the Cub Scout program.

There does seem to have been a break down in communication from what the Cub Scout Division at National were trying to do with the Race For Cub Scouts and what was getting to the Packs.

I very much doubt if sales of fish are up by 30%. But I do believe that a lot of parents do not want to get involved with an activity that they see as being a tie.

I could mention that all the service organizations are seeing a decline in membership, but I'm not going to.

I for one am not overjoyed to see Lions added to the Scouting family, but it looks as if they are here.

As we know it takes a lot of parental support to run a Den and a Pack. Cub Scouting is by design a family program.

I'm not bright enough to know if because the Parents are not interested or willing, this means that the program is no longer viable?

The Lady with the Fish said that she just doesn't have time, it seems that Hubby number 2 is not around and she needs to devote her time and energy to her work.

That being the case the fish is a good choice.

Eamonn.

[brianbuf 10]

"I really don't see to many problems"

 

Ding Ding Ding, we have another winner.

 

What more of a decline in scout enrolment do you need? Subscription decrease even more? No, some magazines are up! Several kid ones... this guy with Boys life told me Sports Illustrated for Kids is killing them!

 

No problems huh? Got an extra pair of rose colored glasses?

 

I want this program to be in the lives of my grandkids... and it is dying on the vine.

 

BP would roll over if he saw how out of date it is, because his program was up to the times when he started it... his times. Not 100 years before his time, or even 50. Please remember this is not about the leaders, it is about the boys of today. Too many posts here have forgetton that point. Join the Good Sams if you want something for you. I will work to modernize and improve scouting.

 

And yes, concrete answers are on my site.

 

Thank you and good night.

 

[ScoutNut 147]

Brian - Ding Ding Ding !

 

I am curious as to how you KNOW this is how the BOYS feel? Everything I have read from you, both on your site & off, says the same exact thing -

 

I SAY the boys are leaving Scouting because of outdated uniforms, icons, & merit badges. I SAY this is why Scouting is "dying on the vine". I SAY if you don't agree with me then you are "sticking your head in the sand" because I KNOW WHY THE BOYS ARE LEAVING.

 

HOW? How do you KNOW that all of the boys are dropping out of Scouting for the reasons YOU state? Have you asked any boys? I HAVE, & the answers I got FROM THE BOYS do NOT match anything that you are saying. The BOYS I have talked to have NO big problems with the uniform, icons, language, or program materials.

 

NO we HAVE NOT forgotten that Scouting is for the BOYS, but it seems to me YOU have. It seems to me that you are making this about YOU being RIGHT & the ONLY one who has all of the answers.

 

While EVERYONE here agrees that BSA's membership is down, we do NOT necessarily agree with YOUR reasons it is down or YOUR methods to correct it. Can't you even CONSIDER another point of view except YOUR OWN? Can't you even CONSIDER the idea that you might be WRONG about the reasons BSA's membership is down? Because the BOYS that I have talked to, & there have been quite a few, do NOT agree with YOU.

 

(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)