Problems at other youth groups?

[Bob White 20]

Madkins,

If I may interject. While folks at national possibly look in from time to time, remember you said "possibly", complaining with no solution in hopes they might hear is hardly a well convceived "plan" for achieving change.

 

What would happen in your specific professional environment to an employee who wandered the break room spewing complaints in hopes that the management might "possibly" wander in and be educated?

 

On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being "Welcome to the Board of Directors" and 1 being "Welcome to your State Office of Unemployment"

where would you place this employee's future potential?

 

While I appreciate your input on the matter I believe a response from Prairie Scouter is in order. He mentioned that he was making "efforts to correct the situations in the BSA", and until now I was unaware that he was doing so. I am anxious to find out what those specific efforts are.

 

Best wishes

BW

 

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

Well, Greetings and Howdy to you, too, Pal!

 

Well, since you asked.....

 

Until 3 or 4 years ago, I was something of a naive bumpkin when it comes to the politics of BSA. I, for some unbeknownst reason, thought that BSA, like many other organizations, had "policies" that were in place for some reason or another, but were largely ignored. It could be that my local experience led me that way, because I had never met anyone in Scouting who thought that the policies on gays and athiests was something that was actually considered a "big deal", feeling that it was largely ignored at least locally. Maybe it had just never come up as an issue. I had no knowledge of the Supreme Court decision, the "allowances" made for the LDS, and the particular hatred that some Scouters have for those who are against those policies. Not everyone, of course.

 

About 2 years ago, our local district newsletter had an article in it in which those who oppose some BSA policies were labeled as the "enemy" and asked how anyone could be against BSA, since their mission was so "righteous". Bigotry and discrimination are particular hot buttons of mine. These seemed like pretty outrageous statements to make. I then started contacting our distict leaders to say that I thought that these kinds of comments were out of line in a newsletter that was supposed to be about "news". I also said that if they're going to allow these kinds of articles, then it's only fair that they allow opposing views to be published as well. They responded that they agreed that the comments in the newsletter were out of line, but rather than turn the newsletter into a discussion journal, they would assign an editor to more closely monitor what gets included.

 

Informally, I continued discussing these issues with the district, and 1 or 2 council leaders. A couple of them were kind enough to more or less begin my education on the politics of BSA. It was then that I found out what can happen to Scouters who become too public in their views...well, if those views don't happen to coincide with BSA policy, anyway.

 

Now, I was brought up to think that when you see something wrong, you should try to fix it. I also grew up in a family that was connected with the political organization in Chicago (to a small extent). A relative of mine told me once that sometimes the best way to fight a political battle is from within. And, to understand your opponent. So, I've spent a good deal of time trying to find objective sources of information about the issues confronting BSA. I've kind of concluded at this point that there are no unbiased sources of information. If you look for awhile, you can eventually find sources of information on things like basic BSA structure. But, if you start asking questions about how that structure works, and then go on to "how do they REALLY work", well, that becomes more difficult.

 

Anyway....

 

So, I've had a couple of minor skirmishes with the local district and council. Since their leadership seems to be decidedly middle of the road, they try to take a stance of "look, this is the way it is, but you know, we're all just trying to do the best we can, so let's try to get along." I can be satisfied with that, and they seem to be well meaning and open to dialog, albeit informal, because opening formal dialog seems to be a path to, well, bad things. They've made it pretty clear that they don't have anything to say about what National does, so that's not really the place to fight the battle. Changing the position of one council doesn't help because the National office can just sanction them. You need to advocate change at the National level.

 

I've been asked to participate at the district level a couple of times, but right now, I'm too busy with my troop. The local program is one of the areas where I think BSA does a very good job. My troop has been pretty lax about following the BSA program, and making use of the readily available resources; things as simple as the program features. I've spent the better part of the last year working those into our program. I think it'll help us quite a bit. So, I'm not as negative on BSA as you like to think. So, thats where most of my available time has been going. As my troops gets onto more solid ground, that might allow some time for further participation.

 

In the meantime, I've been working on a couple of letters to be sent to the National Office to present some alternative views of the current policies on gays and athiests. The discussions here have helped to jell some ideas I've been tossing around that are very similar to ideas brought up here. Right now, I'm trying to figure out the best place to get an open hearing of such ideas without getting my butt immediately kicked out of BSA. Getting thrown out doesn't help my troop, and being outside doesn't seem to be the place to have any effect. The political situation right now is such that I don't think any view that tries to address the gay and/or athiest issue is going to get a hearing. In my opinion, BSA is putting a lot of effort into satisfying the conservative religious base in BSA, and I don't think that, today, anything that talks about moderating their view on these issues is going to get heard. That doesn't mean I'm not going to try, but it does mean that I have to be careful about how I approach this.

 

I try to view this kind of pragmatically. I think if BSA were to alter their views on gays and athiests, this, in the long run, would lead to a better BSA on many levels. Would there be losses? Sure, but I think the long term gains would offset this by picking up support from groups currently not aligned with BSA. BSA would then be more likely to get support from areas that now have decided not to support BSA. And, maybe more important than anything else, BSA would get out of the firestorm it sometimes finds itself in, and it could get back to the job of building tomorrows men of character, possibly with access to more resources than it has now.

 

So, if someone were to come up to me and say, "hey, National want to begin consideration of moderating our views on gays and athiests. It could be a long haul, but we want to discuss it. Interested?", Sure, I'd be interested. So far, that opportunity hasn't presented itself.

 

So, most of my energy is currently going into my troop. But I'm trying to work in what small ways I can to solicit change at other levels of BSA. BSA is a wonderful organization at many levels; I would say, at most levels. But things are happening that worry me, and I don't like the idea that wearing the uniform labels me as a bigot and in favor of discrimination to some people. I've found nothing to change my view that the current stand on gays and athiests is only damaging BSA. This is called "traditional" values, but I think it's really just "historical" values. Traditions can change, and history doesn't have to repeat itself. I think that BSA could find a middle ground that would work, but there seem to be groups within BSA that won't allow that to even be discussed. I'd like to help them find that middle ground. Just my opinions, and I know that they're really not accepted here, but the discussions here, as I said, help to clarify and sometimes correct my positions, and for that reason, these forums are very good. Besides, mostly, the interactions are pleasant and friendly.

 

So, did you really want to know, or did you not expect a response, or were you just looking for something to beat me over the head with?

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

And, in case it isn't entirely clear, I do put a lot of effort into making sure that my views don't enter into our troop activities. The other adult leaders have a pretty good idea of how I feel, but it's entirely outside our Scout activities. Just wanted to be clear on that.

 

Besides, I'm much too shy to say much about what I think

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

Sorry, one more thought. There was a request to "share my plan". Happy to do so when it's "fully baked". You can't go to National with a plan that says "be nice to gays" . A credible plan has to consider the political ramifications as well as the policy implications of such a change. That's one reason why I want to understand the part about "how do things really work" because a plan for change has to address the concerns of various groups who would be initially opposed to such change. So, while it sounds good to say "it's wrong to discriminate", any plan to address the perceived problem has to consider how National would address the concerns and objections of such groups within BSA, if such a plan were to be successful. You won't be able to assuage the true extremists, but the majority who live "in the middle" could be convinced to go along.

[Bob White 20]

I got what I expected, I think that is a fair thing to a say.

 

I think its good that they got an editor for the newsletter.

 

Can I ask some questions. You say in your 6th paragraph or so that I'm not as negative on BSA as you like to think

And yet up to that point and beyond it you make no positive statements about the BSA.

 

Another statement I found interesting was that "traditions change", I'm could be mistaken but I am pretty sure that what makes them tradition is that they don't change.

 

Basically you sound frustrated, and misinformed by others. For instance

1. You don't believe that the BSA ever discusses or reconsiders the membership policies related to atheism anmd homosexuals. What evidence or information have you obtained to lead you to that conclusion

 

2. You believe that if you try to discuss this with national you will thrown out of scouting. Can you point to a single incident where this has happened to lead you to believe it will or could happen to you.

 

3. You don't know specifically who to address your concerns to do you? Who have you asked and who did they tell you to send your concerns to.

 

4. When you said you had no intention of "giving up my efforts to correct the situation" it implied two things. First, that you had already done something about the "situation" and second that there was a "situation".

The first by your own narrative is not true, while you are 'formulating' a letter you have not as yet actually done anything other than form an opinion, which in and of itself does not solve anything. AS far as the "situation" that is really an opinion, and one that is shared by only a small portion of members.

 

So truth in fact you have gathered bad information, and thought about writing someone but you do not know who, and you think you could get removed for it (more bad info) so as of yet you haven't done anything at all. But you continue to post inaccuracies because you do not want to give your efforts. There has been no effort Prairie.

 

If you will answer my questions I will give you the information you have wanted. In return I ask that before you post what you hear others with little information grumble about, or what you think BSA is or isn't or does or doesn't do you will first ASK for information.

 

Is it a deal?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

Bob, (long sigh)

Ok, I guess you might say that *I* got the response I expected as well. So, I shouldn't have been surprised, and wasn't. I had hoped for something different, tho.

 

But, what the heck, it's a Saturday night, so let's go for one more round.

 

Regards positive statements about BSA, you didn't ask for any. The response I constructed didn't require any at this point. If you want to hear a list of positive thoughts I have about BSA, just ask.

 

Not to begin a semantic debate of little value, but traditions can and do change. Many college football teams had a tradition of using Native American caricatures as their mascots. That is changing. Fraternities had traditions of hazing their pledges. That is changing. The fact that they used to do those things is part of their history. That can't be changed, but the traditions can.

 

Regards point 1.

I'd say the best evidence I have is a lack of available information in regards to such discussions having taken place, at least that I have been able to find. If BSA National has done so, why wouldn't they make that public? It would certainly improve their public persona.

 

Regards point 2.

Well, the easy one is Scoutmaster Dave Rice, removed in 1998. And, in 2001, there are reports that several Cub Scout units in Oak Park, IL were disbanded by the National Office after they announced that they would not discriminate in their membership policies. (Having the unit leaders removed from their positions was a byproduct of this action, so that would account for possibly another dozen or so?). In signing the Adult Leader application, you effectively are agreeing to BSA policies. If you then announce that you do not agree with those policies, I think it's reasonable to assume that BSA would take some action. (I hope we don't have to debate over if it was really the National office that did these things, or the CO, acting on BSA National advice; same difference, in my mind)

 

Regards Point 3.

I think I did post recently that that was a piece of information I was trying to track down. I've contacted my local DE, and haven't heard back yet. So, this is hopefully in process at this point.

 

Regards Point 4.

Well, this was the point where you decided it was time to start debating, so I'm not sure if there's a question in there or not. But to answer your remarks, no, the comment about not having done anything is not correct. Efforts with results, you are correct, none to date at the National level, and granted, although I've taken some small steps locally, those wouldn't count if you're only looking at National results. But efforts? Oh, yes, there have been efforts. Whether there is a "situation" or not, well, that speaks for itself. BSA National definitely has a situation on its hands in regards to its membership policies. If there were no situation, there'd be no court cases and no unwanted publicity. As I clearly said in my later post, my suggestion for a solution would need to involve a solution that would somehow be agreeable to most parties involved, enough to get a consensus to move forward on. Whether the membership policy is correct or not is definitely my opinion.

 

In regards to my "formulating" a letter, you can have your opinion, but you're wrong in your assessment. In fact, I've been working through several drafts of these ideas, and as I said in one of my added posts, I'm happy to share that once I feel that it's ready for "prime time". If you want to belittle that work, you're free to do so.

 

After a bit more belittling comments your post basically came to a close. Ask for information? I ask and look for information all the time; not necessarily here. I've said before that it's difficult to get unbiased information. These forums are hardly the place to get unbiased answers to questions on "issues and politics", don't you think? The best a person can do is gather information from several sources and try to find common threads that seem accurate.

 

It seems pretty clear that you're not going to accept anything I have to say and nothing I'm doing is going to pass muster with you, so go ahead, slam away.

[madkins007 10]

BW said "What would happen in your specific professional environment to an employee who wandered the break room spewing complaints in hopes that the management might "possibly" wander in and be educated?"

 

LOL! Anyone who complains in the break room HOPING to be overheard would generally be considered bit off level.

 

However, in our company, 'gripe and grumble' sessions are considered a healthy venting outlet as long as they don't turn into a negative attitude. Upper level managers often share in these sessions in the break rooms, gym, smoking areas, etc. and we sometimes see results from them. On the other hand, we also sometimes get good insider info as to why some things are the way they are.

 

Our company is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they understand that a unhappy/unsatisfied worker is not automatically a bad person. They also understand that sometimes there is just 'something' intangibly wrong and it can take some give and take to figure out what the real problem is*.

 

 

 

*- I think an example of this in Scouting is the on-going grumble about the uniform pants. There is SOMETHING in that topic that causes some disruption in the Force, but it is difficult to quantify. It is not just fit, style, durability or price, and it is not even just about the pants necessarily- they may be just a visible symptom of something else.

[jkhny 10]

 

BW wanted more .....two of 40+ entries relating to Idaho

 

Update after this; Stowell back in prison, another victim comes forward stating he reported a SEPARATE incident involving a separate abuser to Hansen before all this occurred. Two other abusers were also revealed to have been active in this Council.

 

In response to "this is old" - it is long after Youth Protection was established. It is VERY relevant in that the SE in this Council is there IN SPITE of his failure to properly handle this and other incidents. This is one of the FEW times a court case has been UNSEALED. BSA was coplicit in cover-ups at alllevels. In how many OTHER cases remaining sealed has BSA behaved the same?

 

http://www.postregister.com/story.php?accnum=69121-03312005&today=2005-03-31&keywords=stowell

 

 

Thursday March 31, 2005

The art of concealment

By Marty Trillhaase

 

Post Register editorial board members are Roger Plothow, publisher; J. Robb Brady, publisher emeritus; Marty Trillhaase, Opinions page editor; and Dean Miller, managing editor.

 

On Nov. 30, 1999, lawyers for the Boy Scouts of America and the Grand Teton Council learned about a new victim who had been sexually abused by Scout camp staffer Brad Stowell.

 

Testifying under oath in a deposition, convicted pedophile Stowell named the boy. And under an Idaho law, these lawyers and their clients had 24 hours to notify either police or the Idaho Department of Health and Welfare.

 

Fourteen months later, lawyers who sued the Scouts on behalf of another Stowell victim discovered nothing had been done. Lawyers Chad Campos and Laurie Gaffney alerted District Judge Gregory Anderson that even the boy's mother was unaware of the crime.

 

Since the Boy Scouts' lawyer Gary Dance brushed it off -- he didn't want to "open old wounds," figured the boy "could have been asleep" and might not remember being abused anyway -- Anderson directed Gaffney and Campos to contact the authorities.

 

Much has been made about the 1995 law exempting ministers, priests and clergy from the child-abuse reporting requirement. But it still applies to doctors, nurses, teachers, day-care staff or any person having reason to believe that a child younger than 18 has been abused, abandoned or neglected. Failure to comply is a misdemeanor carrying a six-month jail term and a $300 fine.

 

Certainly that includes Grand Teton Council Executive Director Kim Hansen, members of his staff and possibly his attorneys. So what happened? Did they answer in criminal court for not obeying the reporting law?

 

Nope. Turns out 14 months was just long enough. Idaho's statute of limitations runs 12 months.

 

...................

 

 

 

Where are they now?

By DEAN MILLER By PETER ZUCKERMAN AND POST REGISTER STAFF

 

THEN

 

THEIR ROLE

 

NOW

 

THE PERPETRATOR

 

Started molesting boys in 1988 at age 16. Admits to 24 victims in Blackfoot, at Scout Camp Little Lemhi and during his LDS mission in Alaska. Sentenced to 150 days in jail.

 

Cannot leave Bonneville County for seven years. Now 32, married, working in RV sales. Probation forbids contact with kids and requires regular lie detector tests.

 

Brad Stowell

 

Eagle Scout, Camp Little Lemhi counselor, promoted to camp program director

 

SILENT MOTHER

 

Was on executive committee of Grand Teton Council, and from 1988 on, never told fellow Scout and Camp Little Lemhi leaders that her son confessed he molested a 6-year-old boy.

 

Retired Blackfoot High School teacher. No longer a Scout officer. Hall of Fame member, Grand Teton Council.

 

Judith Stowell

 

mother of Brad Stowell, 18-year Scouting volunteer

 

THE CONFESSOR

 

Heard 16-year-old Brad Stowell's confession. Arranged counseling through LDS Social Services. Vouched for Stowell when Scout leaders inquired into tips that Stowell was a pedophile. Testified on his behalf at sentencing.

 

Released from his duties as bishop shortly after Stowell finished counseling. Did not learn of Stowell's abuse during mission until Feb. 26, 2005.

 

Lorin Talbot

 

bishop of Stowell's LDS congregation

 

SCOUTS' APOLOGIST

 

Reported to Grand Teton Council executive committee, which included Brad Stowell's mother, Judith. Responsible for youth-protection program.

 

Grand Teton Council's paid director. Any reports of improper activities by Scouts, Scout volunteers or Scout staff are to be sent through Hansen to national headquarters, which maintains the national eligibility list that is used to weed out those who do not uphold Boy Scout standards of behavior and morality.

 

Kim Hansen

 

Grand Teton Council's paid director

 

Sources: Interviews, sworn testimony and exhibits from Bonneville County civil case CV-99-3416

 

THE RECRUITER

 

Recruited Brad Stowell after being warned by a fellow teacher that Stowell was a pedophile.

 

No longer on the Boy Scouts of America's paid professional staff. No further information available.

 

THE INVESTIGATOR

 

Investigated 1995 warning about Stowell by talking to Stowell and Stowell's LDS bishop, Lorin Talbot. Both said there was an "incident" with a 6-year-old boy, but assured him there was no problem. Allen not place Stowell on notice. He did not report Stowell's background to the Boy Scouts.

 

Promoted to director of a multistate Scout region, then promoted to director of the Boy Scouts' LDS Relations office in Salt Lake City.

 

Brad Allen

 

Grand Teton Council executive

 

THE PERPETRATOR'S BOSS

 

Hired Brad Stowell in 1995 after being told Stowell was a pedophile.

 

Deceased

 

Richard Snow

 

Camp Little Lemhi program director

 

ANOTHER BOSS

 

Recruited Stowell to be camp program director, based on his observation of Stowell's "personal power" to motivate youths and adults. Admonished Stowell for sitting a boy on his lap and massaging the boy's back.

 

Promoted from a second-tier job at Grand Teton Council to top Scouting job with Maui County (Hawaii) Boy Scout council.

 

Robert Fawcett

 

Grand Teton Council director of camping and Camp Little Lemhi director

 

HERO OR GOAT?

 

Rehired Stowell to be camp program director, admonished him in June to stop giving campers rides home, alone, from camp. Either called the police willingly or was forced to by campers.

 

Currently employed at a carpet store in Idaho Falls. No longer on Boy Scouts of America paid professional staff.

 

Elias Lopez

 

Grand Teton Council district executive and Camp Little Lemhi director

 

 

Series synopsis

 

"Scouts' honor" tells the story that the Boy Scouts did not want you to read: How Grand Teton Council leaders ignored multiple warnings and hired a pedophile to help lead a summer camp.

 

This series relies on public documents that two of Idaho's most powerful law firms tried to bury -- more than 1,000 pages, including sworn statements that spell out how the molester depended on church, family and Scout connections to get away with abusing at least two dozen boys from Idaho to Alaska.

 

SUNDAY

 

Sick of being preyed on, a 14-year-old Scout forced Scout leaders to call police.

 

MONDAY

 

At least one Grand Teton Council board officer knew Brad Stowell had a problem.

 

TUESDAY

 

Experts disagree, widely, whether it was certain that Stowell would strike again.

 

WEDNESDAY

 

After the molester was caught, what did Grand Teton Council leaders decide to change?

 

Where are the key Boy Scout officials and other major players today?

 

FRIDAY

 

What should you do if you think you, your child or a friend was in harm's way?

 

 

Separately

 

 

[Bob White 20]

WOW first Prairie Scouter then jhnky in a separate post.

 

Lets look at my questions and your answers!

 

1 BOB asks

You don't believe that the BSA ever discusses or reconsiders the membership policies related to atheism and homosexuals. What evidence or information have you obtained to lead you to that conclusion

 

PS answers

I'd say the best evidence I have is a lack of available information in regards to such discussions having taken place, at least that I have been able to find. If BSA National has done so, why wouldn't they make that public? It would certainly improve their public persona.

 

Explanation.

The fact that you DON'T KNOW about it happening does not mean it didn't. Do you know what I had for breakfast today? Does that mean I must not have had breakfast? Have you ever asked anyone who would actually know if this was ever discussed and by whom? Who did you ask?

Are you aware of any other PRIOVATE organization that makes PUBLIC the minutes of every meeting they hold?

 

2. Bob asked

You believe that if you try to discuss this with national you will thrown out of scouting. Can you point to a single incident where this has happened to lead you to believe it will or could happen to you.

 

PS answers

Well, the easy one is Scoutmaster Dave Rice, removed in 1998. And, in 2001, there are reports that several Cub Scout units in Oak Park, IL were disbanded by the National Office after they announced that they would not discriminate in their membership policies. (Having the unit leaders removed from their positions was a byproduct of this action, so that would account for possibly another dozen or so?). In signing the Adult Leader application, you effectively are agreeing to BSA policies. If you then announce that you do not agree with those policies, I think it's reasonable to assume that BSA would take some action. (I hope we don't have to debate over if it was really the National office that did these things, or the CO, acting on BSA National advice; same difference, in my mind)

 

Explanation

 

ALL totally irrelevant to what you said you were thinking about maybe doing. Your examples are of people who publicly spoke against the BSA or who said they were or had intentional violated the BSA membership policies. You are suggesting that you might maybe someday put organized thoughts in a letter and send it to the appropriate committee for consideration. Have you any factual knowledge of ANYONE who was reprimanded in any way for doing so?

 

The fact is you do not, nor has anyone been treated that way.

 

3. Bob asked

You don't know specifically who to address your concerns to do you? Who have you asked and who did they tell you to send your concerns to.

 

PS answered

I think I did post recently that that was a piece of information I was trying to track down. I've contacted my local DE, and haven't heard back yet. So, this is hopefully in process at this point.

 

Explanation

But it never occurred to you to make a phone call to the BSA office and ask who to address the letter to?????? Do you see why it is so easy to become frustrated with the opinions you express based on absolutely no information when the answers are very available, you simple chose not to get them?

 

4. kind of long on both our parts so i will summarize. You said you were not going to stop your 'efforts'. the fact is you have made no effort. I grant that you have thought about it A LOT. but no real work has gone into it.

 

AND YET having gathered no actual information or developed any actual plan to support you personal opinion. You have taken every opportunity to post what is wrong with the BSA when you have not even picked up the phone and asked them who to send a letter to.

 

And there is my problem with your actions. You have NO actual information nor have you made any effort to get it. Your primary source of BSA knowledge comes from gossip from other ill informed volunteers.

 

The real kicker is that this is by your own choice. You have been offered information several times o this board, and refused it every time. Other posters besides my have informed you of a lot of misinformation that you have posted and yet you have done nothing to become better informed about the program or the BSA.

 

Here are some facts

The BSA has a committee within the relationships division that is made up or representatives of several Chartering organizations that use the BSA programs. They make recommendations to the executive board based on their discussions. The executive board then makes the decision as they do on all matters regarding policies of the BSA.

 

Both the executive board and the relationships committee have unanimously supported the current membership policies as being in the best interest of the goals of the BSA. This is the committee you need to send your opinion and reasons too. There will be no repercussions against anyone who makes a reasoned presentation of their thoughts and opinions. The committee I believe meets as a whole once or twice a year. You can get contact information by calling the BSA national office.

 

Remember that the committee is there to represent the charter organizations and their values and goals not the individual scout volunteer or even any or all the scout volunteers. You are not a charter organization representative. You are a unit volunteer you WORK for the charter organization you are NOT a spokesperson for it.

 

While they will read your thoughts they are their to represent their organization.

 

There in just 4 paragraphs is everything you need to know but never stopped to ask about.

 

Anchors or sails, the choice is yours.

B:)b White

 

 

 

 

[Bob White 20]

jhnky,

 

In your anger you have posted your overly long but lovely, lilting meandering response in the WRONG thread. Please shorten the reponse to answer only the question that was asked and repost in the correct thread if you have any real desire to thoughtfully discuss this topic.

 

smiling delightedly

B:)b White

 

cue the bluebirds please.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[mmhardy 10]

Ahh back from another nice weekend in Michigan's north country. Even got a bit of golf in.

jkhny noted on my Google search for "boy scouts and service" having more hits then 4H Boys clubs, etc.... "This reflects CONCERTED Public Relations by BSA. First, your search term "service" is BIG in the BSA phrase book which boosts counts immensely."

If the BSA has a public relations plan I would be shocked. So far this year (up to July) BSA national has issued only 11 press releases. 5 releases in July alone. I think the word I would use is PATHETIC!!! A national service organization like BSA should have something out every day. Use any search term you want. More times then not Scouting has more hits then ANY other national youth program. That is only because of the efforts at the local level.

"Even in local Councils there is a real effort to "market" Scouting. If you help an old lady across the street NOW, our SE wants you to issue a press release."

Oh if it where only true. I'm our District PR and marketing guy, a volunteer. I tell you the real concentration is on the boys (program development and funding to keep it going) Marketing is a distant after thought. It's usually me that is up until 2am faxing releases to the local media. It usually takes about 30 releases to finally get a story. Honestly if your in a big MSA the media really does not care a hoot about the service that the BSA does. Most of the news hits on Scout activity is from small town papers.

"Sorry, but I think your search helps make one of my points. BSA has a focus on IMAGE and puts more effort into that than SUBSTANCE."

Sorry friend but as I pointed out the BSA national has failed miserably about projecting ANY image. The image that the general public is aware of is the same one that has held for almost 100 years and its all established on the local level. If a local council has successfully fostered a relationship with the local media to get one or two stories a month then that is a success.

"In my opinion - and from personal contact - various Boys and Girls Clubs efforts serve "disadvantaged" youth in a very real way, youth who NEED a "program", FAR better than BSA. But they spend far less time on public relations."

Here is an interesting point. The B&G Clubs has 5 Clubs in Detroit. There are 25 packs and troops in Detroit. Each of those Scout units is sponsored by a CO that utilizes the BSA program to serve their youth. Don't fall into the wrong headed trap that BSA national somehow goes into an inter city like a McDonald's franchise. Its the CO that picks BSA to supply the program. Its the CO that serve the youth

Again, even WITH a CONCERTED effort by BSA to project a "positive" image, there is far more negative to offset than there should be.

I disagree. As I pointed out there is very little, if any, image building done by national. BSA national does not seem to respond when they are attacked. There are also very little resources supplied by national that a local council could use to establish a marketing and PR program. We could to a lot better to get the word out about the BSA program and the good works that are generated from that. That being said if you ask someone on the street Does the Boy Scouts of America have a good or bad image? Most will say the program and what it does for the boys is favorable.

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

Like I figured, Bob, it really doesn't matter what I say. You just read it (or not) and make up your own conclusions. Anyone who says anything negative about BSA's actions is just a target to you.

 

Everything I need to know? Hardly. What you've described is the next step, that is, the public structure. To be successful in change, tho, you have to know the internal workings, not the "here's how it's supposed to work". I've said that in this thread a couple of times. So, I appreciate the information; about half of it I had, but I do appreciate the additions.

 

Could you please provide a link to where the minutes of the meetings are posted? I haven't been able to find them.

 

Other than that, I don't think we need to continue this any longer; it's not relevent to the thread, anyway.

[evmori 11]

I've participated in problem solving courses & have been part of many problem solving teams. One of the main elements in problem solving is to determine if the problem is perceived or real. One of the techniques used to determine this is brainstorming causes. That is what these forums basically are. Brainstorming sessions.

 

Maybe the folks at National need a few brainstorming sessions!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White 20]

OK, Somebody please help me here, and someone else post for Prairie Scouter all the information I gave him that he himself said he did not yet know or have. Also, what did I say about the minutes of the meetings?

 

 

Ed Wrote, Maybe the BSA needs more brainstorming sessions

 

All I can say to that is.... John Daigler, you know exactly what I want to say, but I promise I will not post it publicly"

 

See I can be good when it is in the best interest of the program.

 

 

[evmori 11]

Anchors & sail! Cruise ship metaphor! Could we switch to tanks & trucks!! I'm getting sea sick!

 

We will go round & round & round & round and end up in the same place. Some posters perceive themselves as always being correct & those that don't agree with them are wrong.

 

C'mon Bob! Share!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10