Camoflage clothing with cub uniforms. What do you think?

[amethyst 10]

I do know that if a boy needs a uniform or any accessories we can ask Circle Ten Council for these items to give to the scout. We can also talk to our north District if there is a need also. So there really is not the issue of not affording the uniform were we are here in TX. This is just parents wanting to push their views on the Scouting program. They really do not care how it looks or affect their child. They think they are supporting their country by having their childwear these articles of clothing. I think it is really sad that they are that way. Also you have parents that think that a sports unifom is appropiate to wear to an award ceremony or other event for the convenience of not having to change the child's clothes for each event.

 

 

[Bob White 20]

I think teaching young people to respect the rules of their community IS an important part of good scouting and of being a responsible mentor.

 

Why join an organization if you are unwilling to act according to their rules? It is disappointing to see adults who are setting example for the youth to pick and choose what rules they will abide by and what they will ignore.

 

There is no reason why all the rules cannot be followed. They aren't that tough.

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, amethyst, we get the drift, eh? Lots of other parents in your unit don't meet your standard of parenting or scouting. As we've said, in this matter the BSA's guidance and us folks in internet land agree with you.

 

But there's a bigger question.

 

The bigger question is what is appropriate, kind, courteous, etc. for you to do as a new leader and a brand new member of this unit? Do you want to be "that person" who comes in tellin' all the other families that they're doin' things wrong? Most places, that isn't goin' to win you any friends, or make you effective as a leader. On reflection, it's probably not in keepin' with the Scout Law.

 

My advice is that you aren't allowed to criticize until you've been around long enough that you have recognized and praised all of the good things that your pack is doing for kids. Only when you've seen the good in people can you even begin to offer effective advice.

 

In the meantime, you can encourage all of your Tigers to be in full uniform and set the example with smiles.

 

Beavah

 

[amethyst 10]

For all to be told I am only asking to teach my boys the correct path and I never criticize anyone. It seems that you are citicizing me for inquiring. Also as I have stated before I have been involved in this Pack for 3 years prior to be becoming a Tiger leader. I was their advancement chair. I just want to know what to tell my families when they ask what is correct according to BSA Rules and Rugulations. That is my only reason for inquiring about this anyway.

 

 

[Bob White 20]

Amethyst

I apologize if my last post appeared to be directed at you. It was not, it was in response to Eagle92's comments.

 

I applaud you for wanting to do what is right. A good friend of mine recently became a Cub Leader on the East Coast. He called me because at the first pack meeting the cubmaster told the families that the uniform was the Cub Shirt and blues lkeans. He wanted to know if that was correct. he was relieved to know that it was not. His concern was that the BSA had lost track of the value the uniform. His scout now wears teh complete uniform and others in his den have begun to do so as well. Several other adults in the pack have commented on how sharp his son looks.

 

The uniform goes from head to socks in Cub Scouts, for the unit to support anything else is incorrect. Again I applaud you for your dedication to do the right thing and follow the BSA program..

 

 

[Eagle92 110]

BW,

I think you misunderstand what I am saying. According to the link provided, it appears that BSA also has a problem with government surplus equipment. As a young scout I couldn't afford the the name brand camping equipment. It was either Kmart, which I used to buy a backpack form and regretted it as the frame broke on the trail, or government surplus which has a reputation of lasting. I knew this because several leaders and scouts also used GI equipment. So I went with the GI issue, using my resources and being thrifty. And i still have that ALICE pack and other equipment today. .

 

Now if you are talking about me ignoring the volunteer at the Ordeal, how would you expect me to react to someone saying cammies are a no-no, when they are wearing cammies? I took it as a joke. To be honest in my 19 years in the OA, I have always seen cammie pants or the older OD pants at Ordeals and workdays. As I stated they are great work pants. Also I think I've seen cammies in either OA Trail Crew or Wilderness Voyage photos posted online.

 

Finally in reference to what we wear at camp. As you stated previously the Oscar De La Renta uniform is not really an outdoor uniform. I see no reason to wear the scout uniform during the work portion of an OA Ordeal. As my old lodge as a youth reminded us in reference to cheerful service at camp" A clean Arrowmen is a lazy Arrowmen." Now once you are finished working and had shower, yep put on the proper uniform and head off to the ceremony.

 

As you said before Wear whats appropriate for the activity and the weather....

 

[SctDad 10]

I have to agree with Eagle 92 on this one. I know that there was a topic in the past where I mentioned that I use my Military MOLLE Ruck and I was told that using it was a big no no because it was military camo.

 

I guess if I was in the areas where a lot of the "Experts" and "Uniform Police" on this board are from then I would just have to give up scouting. I mean I have already spent close to $150 to get my son and I in scouting and get us our shirts. But since I could not afford the pants I am a poor leader.

 

I guess I will also have to tell all the other boys AND adults in the pack tghat they are not allowed to wear thier uniform shirts until they get Official Pants/shorts, socks, and hat. Oh and the Belt too. I think that if you are soo he!! bent on uniforms I guess your pack has the money to pay for these items for the parents too. But that is not our pack.

 

We tend to look at more important issues. Things like recruiting leaders, retaining boys, and quality program. Things I thought scouting was all about.

[Eagle92 110]

Sctdad,

I don't think some of the folks on the board realize the area we are from: rural eastern NC. An area that has been very hard hit economicaly because of the heavy dependence in the past on tobacco and textiles. Extremely agrarian, and extremely poor. Also let's not forget the area that have been hit by hurricanes in 1998. YES we still have folks recovering after 10 years ago.I cannot remember the exact stats out new SE gave us at the OA banquet, but we have apporx. 10% unemployement rate in the council. I do remember that only 49% of our Troops go to ANY summercamp and that the OA has been asked to raise more money for and advertise camperships. He would like for us to double the amount of money we raise to 20 full camperships.

 

Why do I mention this, yes uniforming is important. BUT it is NOT the only thing in Scouting. Program is. Leadership development is. I remember that in my old handbooks, Scouts were to buy their own uniforms. So it was common to see folks with part of the uniform on, gradually building into a full uniform in about a year or so. I know that I bought second hand uniforms from the troop and good will stores. Heck I never had a brand new uniform until I worked for supply and they issued one to me.

 

Folks if you are4 concerned abotu uniforming, if the scouts in question are Cubs, talk to the parents and offer suggestions to help out. For Boy Scouts, talk semiprivately to him and offer suggestions. Finally if you don't have a used uniform bin with your unit, START ONE!

[ScoutNut 147]

Amethyst, perhaps at the next Pack Leaders/Committee Meeting you could suggest a uniform inspection for the next Pack meeting. The inspection sheets can be found on the internet, or at your council shop. Use your COR and your UC to do the inspections. The Scouts with the top 3 scores each get a certificate and a small prize (McDonald coupons, a nifty necker slide, etc).

 

It might wake some parents up.

[SctDad 10]

Eagle92

 

I agree in full with you. But from the sounds of some of those posting, the only uniform that should be worn is the FULL uniform. Anything less should not be worn.

 

THe other thing that I notice is that the debate over uniforms hits 2 pages in two days, when some one asks about suggestions or help on actual issues that are worth anything, you may get 5 posts before it goes dead.

 

I just think that camo pants is something that is not that importance when we have so many other issues.

[Beavah 205]

I was their advancement chair. I just want to know what to tell my families when they ask what is correct according to BSA Rules and Rugulations.

 

Yah, yeh want to be careful, eh? BSA Rules and Regulations is a specific document. It governs big-picture corporate stuff.

 

Uniforming in the individual programs is part of da program materials, like the Boy Scout Handbook or the Insignia Guide.

 

What we're talkin' about is the latter, eh? How to wear the uniform is part of the program materials, which give advice and instruction on how to run an effective scouting program. Well worth knowin', but not the same thing as Rules & Regulations.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White 20]

Eagle92

The BSA has had problems in the past, and tries to stem problems in the future with leaders who allow the program to appear paramilitary in its methods and goals.

 

For that reason the BSA asks that you not wear military-like apparel and gear.

 

You have official scouting uniforms, there is no need to wear camoflage. You have ample varieties of camping gear and a myriad of price ranges so there is no NEED to wear military gear.

 

Knowing that this is the case why would anyone choose to voluntarily join a program because they like what it stands for and then purposely violate its image by ignoring their specific rules and give the appearance that it stands for something different?

 

Supporting improper uniforming is poor leadership, but it is easily fixable simply by making different personal choices.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Eagle92 110]

BW,

Again you misunderstand with respect to uniforming. I agree that proper uniforming is very important. But as I stated you got scouts, and leaders for that matter, who are struggling. And I have a bad feeling that with this economy things will get worse. So it may be impossible to get proper uniforming from the get go. Let's face it at $80- $100 for a full uniform is not cheap. Me personally, I am buying my son's uniform piece meal NOW so that he will have a full uniform for next year. Just got his TC necker yesterday So how can you suggest I am supporting improper uniforming? Plus I even offered ways to get people properly uniformed: thrift stores and unit uniform banks.

 

You stated that there is a wide variety of camp gear and price ranges. As I discovered the hard way some of the "cheap stuff" is just that cheap and useless. For the same price of the cheap stuff, I have gotten quality surplus gear. Heck sometimes it's even cheaper than the "cheap stuff." A scout is thrifty

 

Besides if the local council uses GI surplus for their camp and seabase, why not indivuals? That's right two of the councils I've worked for have used GI surplus. And both also had Marines and Navy Corpsmen TDY to summer camp staff in the past.

 

Here is what I am saying, there should be no problem with surplus backpacks, canteens, camelbacks, etc. As for cammie pants, if you are in a wilderness environment, i.e Philmont, AT, etc ,or on an OA work function like an Ordeal or workday, what is wrong wrong with wearing cammies as part of your WORK clothes, not as part of the uniform?

 

Ok I just reread the second link. Apparently the military gear reference is a memo to SEs from 12 years ago and has not been placed in any literature that is accessible to volunteers. Has it been rescinded or forgotten, who knows except the pros. Why do I have a feeling that this is not a high priority with national at this time.

[Bob White 20]

There is a big difference between a scout not having obtained their complete uniform yet, and a leader telling scouts and parents that the uniform does not require the uniform pants.

 

The unit has no authority to alter the uniform. The uniform is what the BSA ays their uniform is and BSA leaders have a responsibility to represent that honestly and correctly. To tell parents that they can wear camo or jeans with the uniform is poor leadership.

 

The BSA has made it clear have they not that camoflage and military wear is inappropriate for wear at scout functions or with the scout uniform.

 

With all the non-camo apparel available, and knowing that the BSA does not want it worn, why would someone need to wear it? and WHY would trained scout leaders choose to support it?

 

The BSA asks that you not wear t-shirts with messages or advertising that is inappropriate for the program. There are tons of t-shirts available to you that would be inappropriate to wear foor Scoiut activities...do you wear them? Why not? Because you choose to wear something more appropriate.

 

Why would anyone be unable to make that same choice when it comes to camo? Just because it exists you do not have to wear it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92 110]

BW,

Again where do I advocate wearing cammies with the uniform? I don't.

As to why I wear it for work functions like Ordeals and use surplus equipment, very simple: I don't have the money to keep buying equipment and clothes. That stuff has lasted since I was a youth and is all I have. Besides this one board, I have NEVER heard of these policies before, except that one incident at an Ordeal I mentioned. And again the scouter was in cammies himself when he said cammies are a no-no, so how else am I to take it but as a joke. And please remember I was a DE and worked for national supply in addition to being a volunteer, so I think I would have heard of this before now.

 

And you said BSA has made it clear. It hasn't. Again in the 26 years in scouting, this is the FIRST TIME the no cammies rule has ever been discussed with me seriously.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Edited a second time for clarification purposes.(This message has been edited by eagle92)