Something better than the Blue card

[Eagledad 2784]

>>"I really learned about responsibility from having to keep track of 150 blue card segments and 500 lines of signatures and initials." Boys learn real responsibility in da program through campin' and cookin' and hikin' and planning and leading and workin' together, not by keepin' track of paperwork. Real responsibility, eh? Not bureaucratic busywork.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, hmmm.... so let me keep tryin' to poke a stick at da hornet's nest. As NJCubScouter describes, lots of extra hurdles and stuff come to be because someone thought it was a good idea once, and then "tradition" expanded it and kept it in place well past its useful life.

 

It seems like folks are mixin' up different things. Eagledad is describin' youth responsibility, but Bando is describin' how da paperwork system has adults who eliminate youth responsibility by havin' 3-year detailed backups.

 

I agree with Eagledad about da value of boys pursuin' Merit Badges. Havin' to call and make arrangements to meet with a MB counselor is a fine thing, but it's got nothin' to do with blue cards. Arrangin' a buddy to join is an excellent lesson but also has nuthin' to do with a blue card. Yeh can keep all of da communication and confidence building that Eagledad describes, yeh can have all da real value of Merit Badges without triplicate forms. In fact, yeh can generally make it better.

 

The reason for that is that da paperwork takes away from the quality of interaction. Have yeh ever watched most of those interactions carefully? Both the lad and the adult are focused on the card, and not on the task, and not on each other. The goal for the lad becomes to get da signature, not to fully engage, not to really learn. The time for the adult becomes to process the paperwork, not to mentor as much, not to explore. It makes da real value of the program weaker. Additionally, boys don't naturally keep up with administrivia and neatness, eh? That's a girl thing. So I've seen many a lad abandon or avoid da advancement process because they don't really care for the paperwork.

 

Most of da justifications I hear for da blue card thing are like Bando's, eh? They are paperwork for paperwork's sake. If we don't have paperwork, well, then, paperwork could be lost and we wouldn't have da paperwork! Every one of those issues can just be worked through directly with a boy.

 

In actuality, da more steps yeh have in da paperwork chain da greater likelihood it will get messed up. Right now we have a lot of steps in da chain, and therefore a lot of opportunities for missed communications and mess ups and boys just lettin' it drop because they're not interested. So yeh end up just workin' with a boy anyways.

 

So the point is not to make da process easier on the adults. And the point is not to take away genuine growth opportunities for kids. The point is to move out of da 1950s and not give the lads an example of grossly unproductive systems that no modern business outside of da most inefficient government office would employ. Reduce the drag on da system to focus on the things that really profit kids.

 

Lots of ways to do that, if yeh can get past "this is da way we've always done it."

 

Beavah

 

 

[Eagledad 2784]

OK Beav, I'm struggling here:

 

>>The reason for that is that da paperwork takes away from the quality of interaction. >Have yeh ever watched most of those interactions carefully? Both the lad and the adult are focused on the card, and not on the task, and not on each other.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, Eagledad, I think in your past practice yeh bound the paperwork/blue card task together very tightly in your mind with all of the other wonderful aspects of MB counseling, eh? That's quite natural, yeh took da tools we had back in previous decades and yeh worked hard to make 'em work, buildin' 'em into one system for your unit.

 

That's a fine thing that most good Scoutmasters and adult leaders do. Personally, I myself like to hold back a bit, because I prefer slightly looser systems that the boys themselves build and re-build and tweak. I think real youth responsibility and leadership develop better when the boys get to build the system, not simply perform da tasks in the adult-built system. But some structure is a good thing, and I don't fault Scoutmasters who have enough vision and "ownership" to build systems like yours.

 

I think, though, that it's a mistake to believe that anyone's SM-built system is the only one. What tends to happen in folks is that they see their approach as successful and are deeply invested in it as a whole. They can't understand how it could be different because "it works." In reality, though, there are some components of systems that are important, and others that aren't, eh? And some that even get in the way. Other good Scoutmasters can come up with different systems which work just as well or better.

 

That's all I'm sayin'. I've seen lots of units use alternatives to da Blue Card Shuffle you describe. I'm seein' it even more often these days. In my humble opinion, they work better because the mentorin' relationships and approach that such systems support is more natural, and da nature of youth responsibility is more broad. You are correct of course - if those boys transfer in to your system, they'll be lost for a bit, and you'll likely decry their lack of knowledge of 1950s paperwork practice. Just as your lads would be lost if they transferred to another troop, wonderin' how people can possibly get anything done just by workin' with each other without paperwork.

 

Lots of ways to skin a cat, eh? Sometimes it's just fun to push people a bit out of their old ways of thinkin'. I assure yeh that Scoutin' continues great guns long after units abandon blue cards.

 

Da most natural thing for boys is if the MBC gives the lad the badge and award right there when he's earned it, eh? Instant recognition. Recognition comes as a result of da approval of your mentor, which is all the program really requires. Easy peasy.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eagledad 2784]

Soooo youuu don't like the Iphone idea? LOL

 

OK, what you're saying has some merit I guess. One Scoutmaster's success is another Scoutmaster's pain in the....

 

Barry

[Twocubdad 665]

Update -- just got an email from my Eagle candidate with the two missing merit badges. He dug up his copy of the blue cards for Cit/Comm and contacted the Communications counselor who had his copy of that blue card. He's bring new copies of both cards to night and we'll do all the final sign-offs on his Eagle app at the same time.

 

Yes, it sometimes takes courage and vision to challenge the status quo. It sometimes takes courage and wisdom to know when the status quo is working.

 

Oh, yeah. Someone made mention of the Scouts keeping all this stuff in a notebook. We SUGGEST that simply because it's the EASIEST method of keeping the cards -- no requirement whatsoever. You can throw them in a drawer, put a rubber band around them or drop them in the trash can as you leave the Scout House. Of course that would have been a problem for my Eagle candidate. Unless there is a problem, we never ask to see the cards.

 

But it's just a suggestion. We suggest a lot of things we think will make Scouting better for our boys -- use Gold Bond at summer camp, keep a bottle of Tobasco sauce in the cook kit, buy a good quality sleeping pad (they last for ever) and inexpensive boots (you'll outgrow them in six months anyway.)

 

TCD

(leaning back, both elbows on bar, smiling broadly, nodding and tipping glass toward Beavah)

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I'm all for the iPhone, though I haven't seen that in operation yet. But I don't think it would be da one for one replacement yeh envision. Point of technology is it enables yeh to work better. So I reckon da iPhone would just be an access point, with da actual records out in the cloud somewhere.

 

I'm thinkin' that perhaps an example is worth a few more words.

 

I counsel Citizenship in the World. Great fun. Usually see lads shortly before their Eagle BOR.

Had three this past month.

 

Scout 1 came from a troop I imagine to be like Eagledad's. The lad arrived with a blue card and a slightly out of date MB book.

 

Scout 2 came with a MB.com worksheet.

 

Scout 3 came with a notebook, a copy of the requirements, and a bunch of reference materials he had collected off the internet and from other sources.

 

Of the three, Scout 1 was the least fun to work with. He had learned that yeh get by through careful compliance with an adult-run system. In workin' with boys, I like to take some examples from current events and specific nations, and work our way through 'em. Once perhaps with me leadin', then at least a second time with them leadin'. All of the requirements get covered along da way, but not necessarily in order. Lots of time a session can end with part of a requirement complete but another part not yet fully addressed.

 

For Scout 1 that was hard, eh? He needed to get each requirement initialed. He had learned exactly how to process da paperwork, and could successfully navigate that challenge, eh? But he was less comfortable with the more ambiguous task of workin' through conversations about the badge and tyin' those to requirements himself. There was no spot on da form. It really threw him when da current requirements were a bit different than those in his book and numbered on his card.

 

By contrast, Scout 3 was a lot of fun to work with, and engaged fully. He took notes for himself on where he was at in the process and what had been discussed and what he needed to follow-up on to understand or demonstrate his understandin'. He could truly manage his own learning, and clearly had a lot of experience doin' it. He was comfortable figurin' out what needed to be done and havin' his own system for keepin' track.

 

Scout 2 was somewhere in between, takin' notes in da margins of his worksheet, but gettin' flustered by me talkin' about World Citizenship rather than talkin' about da worksheet.

 

In the end, I signed a blue card for Scout 1 which he dutifully cut up and handed me my piece of (which I threw away, because I keep track in a spreadsheet). In the end, I signed the MB worksheet for Scout 2, because that's how his troop handles things. In the end, Scout 3 asked me to email their advancement chair with a cc: to him, and told me that's how he'd prefer to handle it and he could do the follow up. I offered to give him somethin' in writin' but he told me he preferred email since it was easier to keep track of.

 

So in terms of actual outcomes, I prefer Scout 3. Scout 3 was able to manage his own learning, and advancement, and communication, without the crutch of an adult-mandated-and-supported blue-card paperwork system. That to me showed more growth and responsibility than Scout 1.

 

As always, it just depends on your goals, eh? What do yeh want the lads to come away from Scoutin' being able to do?

 

Beavah

 

Edited to add, while leanin' back on da bar next to TCD...

 

And I reckon if somehow Scout 3 didn't receive his badge in a week or two, he'd call up da email and go back to his SM and Advancement chair, no different than any blue card. (This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eagledad 2784]

Beav, that is the most ridiculous analysis I have read on this forum in a long time. What next, suicide from Blue Card depression?

 

Barry

 

[Beavah 205]

Beav, that is the most ridiculous analysis I have read on this forum in a long time.

 

Yah, well. I reckon I don't have any control over what people choose to ridicule, eh? And Beavahs are slightly ridiculous lookin' critters.

 

For my part though, I was bein' honest in my reportin' and my observations.

 

Not sure where depression comes in. All three lads were successful in completin' the badge and did just fine. They were good kids. My observation was just that the boys who relied on adult-provided and adult-driven systems were less likely to be able to manage things on their own, or adapt. I'm not sure why that's surprising, eh? That's a general principle of Scouting.

 

This might be one of those things like different patrol structures. Until we try different approaches and see the outcomes from different approaches, it's hard to imagine anything different than what we've been doin'.

 

Beavah

[Twocubdad 665]

Great stories, Beav. All kids are different and approach things differently. Maybe kid #1's parents are lawyers? Maybe kid #3's parents are poets? Maybe #1 goes to a very strict private school and #3 to a montessori? No clue. But I can rather confidently say that how their troops process merit badges has nothing to do with their personality differences.

 

This may take us off on a tangent -- but we could use a round of tangents about now. WAITER! A round of tangents for my friends. Extra lime in mine! -- But I have to say, I really don't like the MB.com worksheets (or where ever the source). They stifle interaction between the Scout and counselor by creating an expectation that all the Scouts need do is give the completed worksheet to the counselor who will "grade" it and sign-off the badge. Brings out the laziness in everyone. The more school-like the MB, the easier it is to turn in a paper and wait for a grade.

 

I don't counsel many MBs, but for the few I do, when a Scout hands me a worksheet I'll look it over for a polite period of time then hand it back to him. Then we can drill into the meat of the MB. If the Scout wants to use the worksheet as a reference, fine.

 

My favorite MB is Genealogy. Being SM, most of the guys will first approach me at a troop meeting -- new blue card from the AC in hand -- and tell me the want to work on the badge. I give them the assignment to fill out a family tree with as much info as the can get from their family. I think the actual requirement is to interview one relative and complete the tree through your grandparents, but I leave it wide open and encourage them to include as much as they can.

 

Our next session is downtown at the history room of the main library. We spend several hours -- and sometimes all day -- researching the Scout's family. We just follow along where ever the research takes us -- census records, family histories, deed abstracts, estates, whatever. Like Beav, it would be hard for anyone else to know we're working on a MB. Sometime towards the end, I may pull out the MB book just to make sure we've not missed anything. And in the end, I say, "you gottcha blue card?" which the kid hands me, I sign, take my third and give the rest back.

[Bando 21]

They really hit a home run with the Genealogy MB. It's a really, really great badge that gets kids thinking, engaging with all sorts of neat resources, and inevitably, they learn something about their families they hadn't even thought to ask about. The MB program at its best, IMO.

[Eagledad 2784]

>>For my part though, I was bein' honest in my reportin' and my observations.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I reckon most of us old critters are experienced MBCs and unit leaders or former unit leaders who have worked with hundreds of kids, eh? In fact I left hundreds behind quite some time ago.

 

I'm now completely confused, though, which Mrs. Beavah says happens often enough.

 

A bit back, Eagledad and others were talkin' about how da blue card administration process was important for teachin' responsibility, leadership, etc. Now yeh seem to be sayin' that administration is just a small part of da process and doesn't really affect the behavior of any scout.

 

Which is it, I wonder? I must have missed somethin' somewhere.

 

I didn't see any particular lack of passion or personality issues with any of the boys I mentioned. That wasn't what I meant to convey. I was just reflectin' on observations of what I took to be some interestin' learned behaviors. The boys in question were typical of other boys I've seen from their respective troops. There's a difference in skills between boys who can execute a given structure that they've been trained in, and boys who can impose their own structure as needed in order to learn or accomplish some task. When yeh have different expectations, yeh get different outcomes in that way.

 

Could approaches to MBs lead to lack of passion? That's a different question. I worry that when we overly proceduralize learning and rewards that that is at least dull. That goes beyond simply administration, and more to TwoCubDad's concern about MB worksheets and the strict version of "no adding to the requirements" which turns Merit Badges into checkin' off isolated independent tasks, rather than a deeper engagement with a topic and a mentor.

 

I share TwoCubDad's lack of enthusiasm for da worksheets. And I reckon my own personal feelings on a checkbox, one-and-done approach to any advancement are well known in this particular pond I prefer approaches where da focus stays on the mentoring and the interestin' subject.

 

Beavah

 

 

[Eagledad 2784]

>>I share TwoCubDad's lack of enthusiasm for da worksheets. And I reckon my own personal feelings on a checkbox, one-and-done approach to any advancement are well known in this particular pond I prefer approaches where da focus stays on the mentoring and the interestin' subject.

[JMHawkins 15]

Chiming in late (hey, been out in the wilds), but I think we do a disservice to Scouts when we teach them to be bureaucratic.

 

It's maybe good to teach them how to handle bureaucracy when they run up against it, sure, but I don't think it's good to set the expectation that bureaucracy is good in and of itself.

 

Rather, we should teach them how to dismantle bureaucracy when they find it. After all, you don't teach farmer to grow weeds, do you?