Scoutmaster transition and Scouts going for Eagle

[wbcarley 10]

I recently took over as Scoutmaster, having been involved in the Troop for 2 years, the last as an ASM. The prior SM was a nice guy, but not a strong leader. The Troop was not boy led (everything was organized by the adults, mostly the SM, and mostly just repeating the same program year after year), Patrols were non-existent in practice (one reason I chose to become involved was when I asked my son who his patrol leader was, and he didn't know.. they had never had a patrol meeting!), skills development was very weak, and advancement was pretty much automatic.

 

In particular, the Troop has produced probably the highest number of Eagle scouts in the Council, with the fewest who have truly earned the rank. OK, I am "Monday morning quarterbacking", but I see little evidence that these boys have truly earned the rank. From what I can see, most of them "checked out" of Scouting around the time they got Life, barely if ever showed up, did a minimal Eagle project, got their Eagle, and were proud to put it on their college application. This was tolerated because "they are good kids", they "are active in sports", etc. Unfortunately, it deprived the boys of leadership experience, and it deprived the Troop of any older boys who could lead the younger ones.

 

I am working on rebuilding the troop, implementing the patrol method, etc.

 

Here is today's problem:

 

One of the Scouts spoke to me at the end of the Troop meeting, to let me know that he was ready for his Eagle Board of Review, and would I schedule that. I asked him if he had met all of his requirements, and he responded that he had. We haven't had an Eagle Board of Review since I became Scoutmaster, so I promised that I would check to see how we set that up.

 

In the meantime, I wanted to get myself comfortable that he is ready in preparation for a Scoutmaster Conference. Based on the records that I have, he is not. He achieved Life rank 2 1/2 years ago. For the last 6 months, he has attended about 1/3 of the Troop meetings, and none of the (4) camping trips. The Troop participation records only go back six months (when I became SM), but I can't remember this scout participating in ANY camping trip I attended in the last 2 years (which is most of them.)

 

I also looked at the advancement records. He earned 4 merit badges right after achieving Life in May of 2006, all at summer camp that July. He then earned 4 more this past March, all of which are badges that are generally earned outside of scout activities (e.g. Family Life, Personal Management....) So there is no data in that 2 year period to suggest that he has been active in the Troop.

 

He does not currently hold a leadership role in the Troop. Again looking back in the records, the last leadership position that he held was in Spring of 2006, the position he held while working on his Life rank (and therefore doesn't count towards Eagle.)

 

I spoke to his father, who tells me that:

- He was active for the period after achieving Life Scout, although not recently.

- He held the position of Patrol Leader for the 2006-2007 school year. (This is not reflected in the records.)

 

So here are my questions:

- First, let's assume he actually was active for that 6 month period, and actually served as Patrol Leader in 2006/2007. Since he hasn't been active in about 18 months, does that prior period 'count" towards Eagle rank? Technically I suppose it could, but I don't feel happy about promoting a scout to Eagle who has effectively been inactive for that long.

 

- Second, as far as I can see, no patrol leader under the previous Scoutmaster ever acted as a Patrol Leader. None of the boys that I talked to who were PLs when I became SM had even seen or read the PL Handbook, none had completed Troop Leadership training, none had held a Patrol meeting, they didn't camp as Patrols, they didn't know which scouts were even in their patrols... but they had been elected and worn the patch. Surely that can't count as a position of responsibility.

 

To be fair to the boys, they met the expectations that were set for them, which were extremely low. For that, the prior SM was responsible and I can't "blame" the boys. But equally, I have a really hard accepting that they have met the requirements, especially for Eagle.

 

The good news here is that this boy is only 16, so he has about a year and a half to complete his requirements, which should be plenty of time.

 

Therefore my inclination is not to recommend him to the Board of Review, and require that he serve in a real position of responsibility (i.e. if he is a Patrol leader I expect him to perform the job) for 6 months before he goes to his BOR.

 

Feedback?

 

 

 

 

[Bob White 20]

You concerns are valid, I just think you are talking to the wrong people about them. You should be talking to the scouts. Sit down with the life scouts and let them know that you want to see them earn their Eagle according to the requirements and that in the past they have not gooten the ooportiunity to practice and to develop leadership skills.

 

Tell them why that concerns you and how you want to make the trop and patrol activities youth led and how they can benefit from that.

 

Then have one of them explain it to the entire troop at a troop meeting. Be positive about it, be excited about them taking meaningful leadership roles. Get everyone on the same page.

 

Then make sure that sure that the Life Scouts have the opportunity to get their leadership tenure in before they run up against tthe age wall. You don't have to make them lead, you just need to make sure they get the opportuunity to accept a leadership role or to lead a scoutmaster selected projected. If they choose not to that's OK not every Scout is meant to earn Eagle, but every SCout should have the opportunity to try.

 

BW

 

 

[Mike F 10]

wb,

I feel your pain - been there.

In my opinion, no matter how much you disagree, it's best not to attempt to undo previous SM's agreements. If scout met the expectations in place at the time, it's going to be a very steep uphill battle to disapprove the work and get him to step up to new standard. And probably not worth the energy and good will you'd expend in the process, but you'll have to judge that for yourself in your situation.

In similar situation, I clenched my teeth, smiled and signed. Then vowed to make sure I never let it happen on my watch.

 

These kinds of things are part of any transition. Some you can clear up quickly after moving in, but some take longer to come to light. The older scouts and parents will offer the most resistance because you're violating their definition of scouting, but they'll move on and things get easier.

 

Do what you can to keep the scout engaged in the program so he can continue to grow.

 

It sounds like you're on the right track and I know how hard it can be. Keep up the great work!

 

 

[wbcarley 10]

Bob,

 

Thanks, I am actually doing that as well. We have now held 3 Patrol Leaders Council meetings and I have had separate meetings with just the SPL and 2 ASPLs to do exactly that.

 

They get the idea, but are just starting to understand what leadership means (since they haven't had any role models in the past.)

 

In this instance my problem is that this scout isn't even in the PLC and has attended so few messages that he hasn't heard the message. (I spoke to his father primarily because I know that if I hold this scout back from advancement, I will get a call from the parents, and I want to pre-empt that.)

 

So for most of the scouts I am doing exactly as you say, and some of them are responding and stepping up (others, as you note, are not destined for Eagle, and that;s Ok too.)

 

My immediate problem is how to handle some legacy situations.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, wbcarley, welcome to da forums!

 

You're describing a situation which is very common, and I salute you for takin' on the task of getting this troop back on track. You'll find a lot of similar tales and discussions in the forum archives.

 

Now, I do think yeh need to be thoughtful, and think of this as being a multi-year effort at improvement. Yeh won't fix everything overnight, and doin' too much at once might cause a backlash. Remember, a lot of boys and their parents stuck with this troop because they liked the program as it is, eh? You're goin' to need time to gradually re-educate and age them out, while bringing in younger boys and new families who buy into your improved vision.

 

So I think when you're dealing with a few of these older boys, you need to mostly honor the older rules. Only shift 'em part way. Try to get 'em to put in some time before you sign off as BW suggests, though recognize that your council and national might not back you up on that if push comes to shove.

 

For the future, I think there's one big change you can make that will matter. You need to drop boys from your roster who are not participating. If a boy hasn't been around at all for six months, he's not really a scout, eh? When recharter comes around, remove his name. A boy can always re-apply, but then yeh get to have a SM conference and set expectations, or simply say "no." Your roster should reflect boys who are really active.

 

If you're doin' recharter at the start of the year like some councils do, that means you can clean things up this month.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Bob White 20]

I think you always err in favor of the youth.

 

If the scout has time as this one does to hold a position then thats where you guide him. If there isn't enough time then you have to consider the fact that this was not a properly admistered program and that is the fault of the adult leadership and not the scout's.

[Crew21_Adv 25]

wbcarley,

 

 

Greetings!

 

Regarding achieving Eagle Scout.

 

Achievements do not need to be a struggle, but they do need to be an achievement.

 

I think I have said it in this forum before. Some Scouts will stumble and trip across the low threshold, some with clear it as though they were running hurdles in the Olympics. Some Eagles will soar, some Eagles will just sit in their nest. They all earn Eagle, and when they are adults they will know how much effort (or lack of effort) they put into it.

 

My kudos to those that just earn Eagle (they earned it!), and my big congratulations to those that have worked hard in their achievements.

 

Regarding the Life Scout which has approached you. The leadership time is counting since he earned Life Scout. Is there a discrepancy between what his father says and your Troop records?

 

Within my troop we hold monthly PLC's. The attendance is fairly good, it takes an hour and a half to conduct 30 minutes of business with these guys. But we went to having an hour TLT every six months.

Just last night, we spoke about communications (in addition to the Know, Be, Do).

 

Our adults leaders desires are high. We tell them that if they plan and communicate, then they are "DO"ing the part of Patrol Leader. The more they plan and communicate, the more the adults can sit in the back of the meeting and "DO" less. Each month, they Do a good job of planning, they Do an okay job of acting on the plan, unfortunately they do a lousy job of communicating (or they just dont communicate). Our desires for my troop's PLC are high, but our expectations with these guys are low. Still, we will give them credit for acting as a Patrol Leaders.

 

So regarding your Life Scout. I can empathize, the expectations are high.

 

It would be great if you saw him, hiking his patrol around Summer Camp, leading with their patrol flag, singing a patrol song, constantly yelling their patrol cheer, meanwhile sitting a table and reading merit badge pamphlets to each other. I think I would clutch my heart if I saw that.

 

But did he do the minimum job? Did he stand in front of the patrol? Did he talk with his patrol on occasion? A very, very low threshold, but did he cross it? If so, I would give him credit for it.

 

I cannot speak for you. But I would give him a Scoutmaster Conference for Eagle, and discuss how well he performed as Patrol Leader. Ask if anyone advanced a rank during his tenure. Ask if they had any Patrol outings. Ask if all the Scouts in his Patrol are still in Scouting and if they are approaching near Eagle. Probably end with discussing Know and Be. And asking if he believes he actively participated in the Do.

 

In the future, he will know how good (or maybe not as good) of a Patrol Leader he was.

 

Good Luck!

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[wbcarley 10]

Guys, thanks for all the advice, I appreciate it!

 

Crew21_Adv, part of my problem is that the Troop records are VERY weak... something I am addressing now that I am SM. So the records show no leadership position since 2006, but then again the records could be wrong.

 

As for PLCs, we have held them monthly since I became SM, and it has been a struggle but we are making progress. Prior SM held one PLC a year (and no, it wasn't an annual program planning conference, since he basically just re-used prior year's program...)

 

The boys are beginning to understand the purpose of the PLC and attendance is good, so we have a start!

 

Regarding my Life Scout:

- I have a meeting with him soon to review all of this, so I will find out more.

- As far as I can tell, he hasn't attended a camping trip in 2 years (i.e. since becoming Life) except for one summer camp.

- The boys who were members of "his" patrol (at least according to the troop records, which as I said are weak) have no memory of ever having a patrol meeting!

 

So based on my standards (and those of the BSA), he hasn't earned it.

 

I just spoke to my predecessor, and he explained that:

- The boy hadn't camped out for the last 2 years because he was involved in sports, and camping trips were a conflict.

- He didn't want to "penalize" the boy for this.

- So he approved him for Eagle rank as one of his final outgoing acts.... In short, the boy apparently believes he has been approved by the SM for Eagle and is just waiting for the BoR.

 

My conclusion is that the boy really hasn't earned Eagle. For that matter, nor have most of the scouts in the Troop who received Eagle under my predecessor. But it doesn't seem fair to penalize the boy, as he has met the dismally low expectations of the Troop. It would also probably create a lot of ill will to undo what apparently has been done by the prior SM, and the boy will have a very cynical view of adults who say one thing and then do another.

 

So I will probably let this one go, and make sure that every scout who remains in the troop understands what my expectations are for the future (which are the the expectations of the BSA.)

 

Brennan (my name... I haven't figured out yet how to update my profile to show my name, will figure that out soon!)

 

P.S. I have had several scouts/parents/leaders explain to me that boys are busy with sports/band/whatever, which is why they can't participate in the scouting activities. Of course if I were the coach (I do coach baseball), and a kid explained to me that he wanted to be our starting shortstop, but couldn't make any practices because he was busy with Boy Scouts, I would explain to him that was nice, but that the guys who are starters are expected to show up for practice. In my book, life is about making choices and accepting the consequences of those choices. Some boys will choose to commit to football and make first string. That's great. Others will choose to commit to scouting and make Eagle. That's great too. Some will have such awesome talent and time management skills that they do both. But most will have to choose, and as parents or leaders, we do them a dis-service by recognizing them for something they haven't earned.

 

 

 

 

[Bob White 20]

Scouting is designed to let boys be active in other activities and still earn all the ranks including Eagle Scout.

 

Keep in mind the BSA has advancement and recognitions based on a scouts participation in Band, Theater, Speech team, Team sports, and other activities outside of scouting. How can you want a scout to promise to be physicall strong and then not encourage them when they do so through sports?

 

Participation in these other activities give youth a chance to show others the things they learned in Scouting. In Scoutmaster Conferences with boys as I found out what other activities they were in I always asked them what responsibilities they had. I would stress that as a scout they had the skills and experience to not just be involved in the activity but to be a leader in that activity and help others to succeed just as they do in the troop.

 

Participation in these other activities were another opportunity for scouts to practice and apply the skills and values they were learning in Scouting in their everyday lives.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[wbcarley 10]

Bob,

 

Sorry if I was unclear in my comments. Most of our boys play sports and have other activities, which is great. My own son plays basketball, baseball, tournament chess, skis, and and plays drums in a jazz band. Plus he is very active in scouts.

 

Where I have a problem is if a boy doesn't attend a single camping trip (and we have them every month, summer included), fewer han half of the meetings, and still expects to advance. Just like, as a coach, I have a problem if a boy skips every practice and expects to start.

 

So yes, sports and other activities are great, I encourage them, and many boys can balance that with scouting. But if a boy isn't active in scouts, I don't see that they should advance.

 

Brennan

[Bob White 20]

A weekend a month is tough on a lot of family schedules. You know a common misconception is that the BSA says a unit should do a campout a month, that's not actually what they say.

 

The program recommendation is actually an "outdoor activity" each month.

 

If you planned a monthly troop outdoor activity, and had only some of them as weekend campouts, it might not only get you better attendance but more variety in the program. Plus, it gives Patrols more incentive to plan their own campouts and outings.

 

That could easily solve your attendance problem.

[CalicoPenn 729]

We can gnash our teeth and pull our hair out all we want at this point - but let's simplify things based on additional information you've now given us. You said the previous Scoutmaster has "approved the lad for his Eagle". I think a very good argument can be made that he's had his Scoutmaster Conference and doesn't need another one before the BOR. I'd set up the BOR and let the chips fall where they may - he is young enough so that if the BOR rejects it, he's got time to fix it, but this is one of those times when I would let the BOR make the decision and you can act as a champion for him while he works to correct any deficiencies should the BOR reject him.

 

Unfortunately, your records are weak - if the previous SM has verified the lad held a POR, you have to take him at his word (since you can't prove it either way). As for the past two years of "activity", drop it - it's a non-starter given the way National has defined "active" (which is defined essentially as "Registered").

 

Calico

[wbcarley 10]

Calico, yes, given that the prior SM has approved him, I have decided to let him go ahead with BoR, and implement the proper standard for future scouts.

 

Bob, regarding monthly camping trips (which I inherited, i.e. the schedule was already published when I took the role, but in any case I happen to agree with it), a few points:

 

- First, the reason for having them often is that it gives scouts more opportunities if they have conflicts. i.e. If you have only one trip every two months, and a boy misses one, now he is going to have to wait 2 more months until the next trip. The more trips you have, the less it matters if you miss one or two, because there will be another opportunity soon.

 

- Second, I didn't actually say I had an attendance problem. The boys who are active are really active (another reason to give them lots of camping opportunities... some of them would camp every weekend if they could!) We get pretty good attendance at meetings and camping trips. What I was referring to was a handful of scouts who are not active AT ALL, but who believe (usually it is the parents who make the argument) that they should advance anyway.

 

- Third, I said "camping" to simplify things... Most of them are (1 night) camping trips, but some of our monthly outdoor activities are hikes, and in most cases when we go camping we get some boys who come along for the hike but then head home at the end (i.e. they just treat it as a day hike, which is fine.)

 

- Finally, the reason we have no patrol outings is more fundamental... we effectively have had no patrols. This year I am working on the basics of getting patrols organized (e.g. having them plan, cook, and tent together on troop outings.) Next year we will explicitly book time on the calendar for "Patrol outing" days where they do their own events.

 

Thanks for all of your feedback... I am still learning, so this is a great help!

 

Brennan

 

[Crew21_Adv 25]

wbcarley,

 

Greetings again!

 

It is certainly understandable for a Scoutmaster to have high expectations. Or, At least I would call them Troop desires.

 

I applaud that you have high standards for your Troop. There are examples of how troops should perform in the Boy Scout handbook, Scoutmaster Handbook and the Troop Program Helps and Features. As well as modeling from Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills, Wood Badge and National Youth Leadership Training.

 

Some Troops and Life Scouts will perform like model Scouts every day of their life, others will meet the very basic minimum and barely functional troops and Scouting behavior. But those troops that barely function, their Eagle Scouts will still meet the minimum to achieve Eagle.

 

I encourage you to have high goals and lofty expectations for your troop, but not to limit the Scouts that just barely satisfy the minimum requirements. Like I stated earlier, If you stick around Scouting for a while you will see many, many Eagles that soar; and just a few Eagles that sit in their nest, and never do anything with their skills.

 

Myself, I would pass a Life Scout that satisfies the minimum (that is why BSA has a minimum requirements, correct?). In the future, they will know what kind of Eagle they are.

 

Good Luck!

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv