Need some help

[DengarOne 10]

Hello Everyone,

 

I will try and be as descriptive as possible and I hope to get some responses to help out. If you can provide links to responses that need them that would be great.

 

Our troop is having a problem with a life Scout working on his Eagle Project. Now this isn't just a now problem and has been going on for over a year. Let me explain.

 

When this scout was 16 years in March of 2007, he had an eagle project approved by myself (the scoutmaster) the troop committee and the council rep. He went along with this project but the project failed. He didn't show adequate leadership, because he never contacted anyone to let them know when his project was being held. It was him, his mother, a family friend and another youth doing ALL of the work. His had changed his plan and meeting times and never told anyone. As the scoutmaster I wasn't notified of any new times or places to meet and help out and neither was the leadership corps or any scouts, there were times we had absolutely no progress on how his project was going. I had asked him at a meeting when he was going to start his project and his response to me was, "I already have and it is going great", I then asked him to notify me about it and he said, "Don't worry it is almost done". One incident, when he did notify the youth in the troop, had our youth troop members standing outside his house for 2 hours while he was away, They subsequently left due to his no show.

 

In April of 2007 I sat down and talked with him. I told him he needed to get back on track and start showing leadership. I told him he needs to lead others to get the project done not do it himself.........3 weeks later, with a lot of the "same old, same old" he told me his project was complete.

 

In May of 2007 myself and the advancement chairman sat down with two council reps and talked with them about this project problem. We told them what had happened and how there was no leadership by this youth. They told us to have a sit down with him and a family member and tell that youth that his project was incomplete that he needs to expand on it. They said that the project should continue with the same idea, BUT if that was impossible that he could do another project and if adequate leadership is shown then that would be good enough. They told me that as the scoutmaster I should not sign off his completed project if he does not do what a project should be.

 

In June of 2007 we had the sit down with the youth and parent and told them what is required of him and how to go about completing this project. He said he would get on the ball during the summer and do what was needed. I told him to contact myself if he needed help and also had an Eagle scout that completed his project in 2005 offer help.

 

During the summer meetings we talked with him but he seemed uninterested. I kept asking him if he needed help but his response was always the same. "I have a few ideas" when asked to elaborate he would say, "I would rather wait".

 

From the fall of 2007 to the Spring of 2008 he basically disappeared. He had turned 17 in September and I understand there are other distractions in life. The meetings he did show up at he didn't mention his project. When I asked him about it he said, "I am working on a few things". Both myself and the Eagle Scout I mentioned above contacted him through e-mail numerous times and got responses that weren't encouraging or none at all. I checked the attendance and he showed up to 3 meetings and no outdoor activities from September to December.

 

From January to May he showed up for 6 meetings and 1 camping trip. The weekend before Memorial day weekend I received an e-mail from him stating he wanted me to sign off his eagle project workbook so he could get his board of review. I informed him about the meeting we had with him in June 2007 and told him he still hasn't completed a project. He did not respond through e-mail but rather came down that week to our normal troop meeting and complain about how he tried to but was held back...etc etc etc. I told him that we would have a sit down with myself, the advancement chairman and the Committee chair and go over what he still needs to do. After that troop meeting I heard from two scouts in his high school grade that he was saying we are trying to sabotage him.

 

That meeting with him and his parent was the first week of June 2008. We told him the same thing that was said in 2007. We got a lot of positive feedback from him and things looked good. As always we offered our help to him and he said he would let us know what he needed.

 

It is now August 5th, he has an idea for a project that isn't related to what his last project was. He contacted me, not asking, but telling me, that I have to contact the youth in the troop and let them know when his project is since he doesn't have contact info (he does have the contact info I e-mailed it to him and he replied with a Thank You). It seems to be going down the same path as before. here are my concerns.

 

1) Can he just go ahead with a different eagle project than his original while still being on that plan? I understand that the workbook says the plan can change, but this much? If he does complete the project and show adequate leadership will the council and national look at this and approve his application? Will they deny it because this new idea never went to the committee and the council rep for approval?

 

2) While I do not want to be seen as holding him back it seems like he does not either understand or want to make an effort in the leadership of doing a project. I seem to be at wits end with this and both the advancement chairman and committee chair agree that he doesn't seem interested but is rather going through the motions. His mother is a person that has gone to the council to complain about bsa related things before. While she hasn't complained about our troop, I feel that if he does not show adequate leadership in his project and I do not sign him off for a completed project I will have to deal with another problem. Am I taking the right stand in sticking strong with my position on this project? Even though I have e-mails and documentation on his lack of project leadership and interest, will the council understand this if it comes down to that? I am not saying I will give him a pass, but I guess I am looking for assurance that I am doing the right thing.

 

3) He has less than 45 days before his 18th birthday. He does not have a plan in place for this new project idea. He just heard about this project and is running with it, and rather than following a plan he is playing it by ear. I see the pitfalls in this already and am talking with him about it and trying to explain what he needs to do. He is not being receptive, what can I do?

 

4) Have any other ideas to get him back on track? I know he has wasted a lot of time from last year to this year and feel he is rushing because his birthday is so close.

 

5) I will not sign him off if he does not show leadership. I say this because I want to know how other people (you) feel about this as an outsider. As a troop we have never had a problem like this before. All prior eagle candidates, while having some problems were able to get past them and fix them, usually by themselves.

 

I am sure I left some details out and will try to fill them in if you have responses. If you want any in depth details such as what the project is or anything like that please e-mail me.

 

Thank You in Advance

[evmori 11]

1st off, you as the SM are not required to be part of the project. Remember, this is the Scout's project & there is no requirement for the Scout to include members of his unit, youth or adult.

 

What was this project that you signed off on? From my initial read, it seems this Scout was not doing anything wrong, just not the way you wanted it done? I could be wrong. It would helps if we knew what the project was.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle 5]

If the first project is said to have been completed, is it written up? It will be the BOR's job to review it and judge it Eagle worthy or not. You can, and should of course, counsel the scout with suggestions and opinions, but he may have to learn this one on his own. It is your impression that the scout did the project with his family and one other youth. Are you sure? Could others have helped that you dont know about?

 

BTW, are you exaggerating about the troop waiting 2 hours for him? I know the guys in the troop I serve wouldnt stand still for 15 minutes let alone 120

[Bob White 20]

OGE is correct. It is the board of reviews job to determine if the project was completed and if the scout showed leadership. If you do not believe that he did then you do not need to sign the workbook, but it is still not for you to decide that the scout does not advance.

 

If the Scout does not complete he project for the benefiting organization that is between them and him. I certainly think it reflects poorly on Scout Spiorit as it would be hard for the Scout to honestly say he has been Trustworthy and helpful if he has left the project undone.

 

IF the Scout decides on doing a different project he needs to have it approved by all the required parties BEFORE he can begin. If he starts before he hass all the approvals it will be refused by the council at the board of review.

 

In my opinion you were far too involved in the young mans project.

 

 

[DengarOne 10]

I guess Ill try and be more descriptive.

 

Ed:

 

The scouts plan was to include the troop in his project. In his workbook plan it was to be the troop carrying out the project. A loose description of the project was collecting bicycles, fixing them up and delivering them to a charitable organization. The youth in the troop were going to be the collectors and deliverers of the bikes. The adults were going to be the fixers(we have 2 adults in the troop that own a bicycle repair shop, on paper they were supposed to be contacted during the project and never were, they even agreed to donate materials) Only 1 adult, outside of the troop helped. Upon looking at the hours in the scouts workbook, it is proven that he didn't have anyone else included besides one other scout for a 2 hour period, and that scout is his neighbor. The eagle candidate put an article in the local newspaper to contact him with bike donations and only he and his mother picked them up. I know this because he told me that in an e-mail. When asked why he didn't include the troop as was his plan he said, "I didn't think anyone was available."

[croushorn 10]

Doesn't he have an advisor or mentor thats been working with him through this project?

I would agree, dont sign off on it, assuming he has the write up at that point. Then he needs to start all over again from the beginning and try and get it right this time. Sounds like you have plenty of others in agreement to taking this stand. The boy needs to understand that he has caused this. That said, I would let him know now so that there is still a chance, as slight as it may be, that he can recover. With 45 days to go he has some serious work ahead of him if he wants to, that is(This message has been edited by ursus snorous roarus)

[AvidSM 11]

A agree with Bob White - you are way too involved. You make no mention of the District Advancement Committee or the benefiting organization's involvement with this scout's project. The project should not have started without the approval of both these parties.

 

I would assume since you approved the project that you had reviewed it and it met all the guidelines, including the need for the scout to demonstrate leadership. The fact that the scout conducted the project without using any volunteers from your troop does not mean that it failed, as you have stated.

 

If the scout had all the right approvals, completed the project to the satisfaction of the benefiting organization and he demonstrated leadership while doing so, then he has met the requirement. You can confirm the leadership part with the volunteers who were there. If they tell you that the scout did not show adequate leadership and was not in charge, then you can withhold your approval. Otherwise, the requirement has been met.

 

It sounds like both you and this scout have some confusion as to the Eagle Project process. I suggest you contact your District Advancement Chair and get his or her advice. Then do the right thing as far as this scout is concerned.

[Bob White 20]

There is nothing that requires the candidate to include any other scouts in the workforce. The workface can be made of of whomever he chooses. Your SPL should not have had the expectation of a cal from the candidate.

 

Yes, we all agree that you do not have to sign the workbook if you feel the project requirements were not met. But you do not get to decide if the scout advances or not. That authority belongs to the board of review. If the scout felt that he was done you should have arranged for the board, given the board your opionion, and then let them review the scout.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

I am sorry, but I have to ask.

 

You dropped your nephew off at an Eagle Candidates house at 10pm and didnt return until 11:45pm at which time you learned no one was at home? You didnt make sure your nephew was safe in the house at 10pm? Am I reading this right? I dont mean to make a big deal out of this, but it just strikes me as odd that anyone would go to a meeting that starts at 10pm, especially scout aged youth and that parents would allow them to do so.

[Gunny2862 11]

Well, if the help you need is a reason not to sign it, then did his project match (resemble) his plan?

Did he lead anyone?

Did his results match(resemble) his plan?

Is the write up complete?

 

It may be up to the BOR to give the final up or down on the completion and leadership quality of his project but they will most likely put a lot of weight on your signature that he completed the project.

 

If he didn't, then don't sign it.

 

It will put a little more pressure on the Scout to show how he did in fact complete it - if the BOR is paying attention - but if he hasn't and doesn't complete the write up how are you supposed to sign off on it being completed?

 

If he does complete the write up you still have the freedom not to sign it and it is still on the Scout to show how the project is complete. But you should still be able to justify your refusal to sign.

 

From this cheap seat and your messages it appears that you have met your responsibilities towards ensuring this Scout had his opportunities to succeed, if he chooses not to do the work then it's his problem not yours.

[DengarOne 10]

Ursus:

 

His mentor, a member of the committee, has tried working with him through this. He has gotten the same response as the rest of us. The don't think the responsibility has fallen on me, it is just that as the scoutmaster I have been getting a lot of the backlash from this.

 

Bob White:

 

I understand what you are saying, and am not trying to attack you here, but I am not going to socially promote a scout just so he can get a board of review or is running out of time. According to BSA literature the scoutmaster should not put a scout before a board that he feels isn't ready for the rank. This is taken from that literature

 

Importantly, the Scout should be ready to review with the Scoutmaster any of the requirements for the new rank. The Scoutmaster must be satisfied that the Scout knows his stuff. By allowing the Scout to go before the board of review, he is saying, in effect, "I certify that this Scout is ready for his new rank." The board of review does not re-test the Scout, but the Scoutmaster can.

 

 

 

At this time I am not prepared to send this scout before a board due to the fact that his Eagle Project was not completed according to the leadership aspect of what a scout should be doing during the project.

 

 

Like I said, we haven't had a problem like this in the past.

 

If I read what you said correctly, if he were to start a new project I should have complete another workbook and start anew. Correct?

 

 

Thank You

 

 

[DengarOne 10]

OldGreyEagle:

 

I never said there was no one there, one of the scouts parents were there along with two assistant scoutmasters.

 

 

Not to complain but I think some of you are reading too far into this or not understanding what you are reading. Here is some info:

 

1) The original project was approved.

2) The original greatly differed from the project plan and the youth showed very little if any leadership.

3) My involvement with the scout was strictly that of a scoutmaster, I asked how his project was going and contacted him trying to get him on track. His mentor also tried along with numerous others to no avail. We did not string him along or offer him any false hope, nor did anyone get involved outside what was asked of them

4) The scout never completed his workbook and said that his project was incomplete.

5) I know how the scouting process works, being an eagle myself and being involved in the program since a youth. I am trained and know what is required of me, if you read too far into my post or read it wrongly then I am sorry.

 

 

I appreciate all the feedback but I need some answers. If you are going to critique then please do so within the confines of the questions, I think a lot of you are reading too much into this and not understanding.

 

Thank You

[croushorn 10]

"But you do not get to decide if the scout advances or not. That authority belongs to the board of review."

BW question As I go down the list for the requirements of Eagle Scout rank, #5 is the Eagle project. So as SM, if I dont accept the project, and thereby dont accept that requirement #5 is complete, at that point the Scout is prevented from finishing the remainder of the requirements - short a SM conference which both prevents completion of the paperwork and from getting a date with the BOR right?

 

[Bob White 20]

"According to BSA literature the scoutmaster should not put a scout before a board that he feels isn't ready for the rank. This is taken from that literature"

 

Dengar One,

According to which BSA literature??? I am confident that idea is not expressed in any BSA resource. If you read the section on "Boards of Review" in the Scoutmaster's Handbook or in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual you will quickly see that your statement is unsupported by the BSA materials.

 

You will not find the notion that 'a SM should not put a scout before a board of review if he isn't ready' ANYWHERE in the resources or training materials of the BSA.

 

Your role on the project is to sign the appropriate spaces if you believe the scout met the requirement. But you as the Scoutmaster are not the final word. Whether or not the scout advances is for the board of review to decide. You can be sure that they will consider the fact that you did not sign that the project was completed and it will likely affet the outcome of the board, but that is their job, not yours.

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[DengarOne 10]

Bob:

 

This is taken directly form the BSA national web site:

 

The board of review is the final step in the advancement. However, the members of the board of review are troop committee members who might not know the Scouts as well as the Scoutmaster. If a Scout's advancement is to be deferred, that should come at the Scoutmaster's conference. While the board of review is not a rubber stamp, the Scoutmaster should not approve the Scout at the Scoutmaster's conference and then expect the board of review to defer the Scout.

 

Taken from this link:

 

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/trainingmodules/scoutmaster%20conference%20training.aspx