Changing Troops because of conflicts with SM or other leaders

[Dozy 10]

An immediate appeal was made to the Board, denied

An immediate appeal was made to the Commmittee, denied

Now, it's going to district.

 

The whole and complete story (and yes, the board needs training).

 

It's easy.

 

He was denied because of not enough Service Hours, period.

At immediate appeal, SM said that he not only had the 6 required Service Hours but he had 18, only 4 hours less than the scout they approved.

 

At appeal time, 2 board members said, "Well, we don't FEEL he's ready."

 

Now that the reason for denial was satisified, 2 members began fishing for reasons to maintain the denial.

 

Yes, I know that I'm using the wrong words, it's not a denial, it's not pass or fail, just a failure to meet the requirements. AND if their's a failure, then it's the SM's failure, absolutely correct.

 

In this case there was no failure. The Scout performed and exceeded rank requirements yet the 2 members of the BOR refused to advance him.

 

That's why were fighting at District... because they stand on the fact that they have further issues and it's not unanmimous.

 

Sorry for straying off the subject of this thread AND thank you for responding.

 

AND our District said that anyone can file an appeal on behalf of the Scout, so we all did. 1 from the SM, one from me as committee member, one from a parent, and one who sat on the board, who was given the misinformation about the rank requirement and changed his vote immediately after the requirement was fulfilled. We're filing because protocal was violated AND there's evident malice towad the Scout.

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

It is a Board of Review not an exam. The Troop Committee needs the exam after the training, of course. As for the malice, once the Troop Committee understands their job duties, a course alteration will be in order, so I would suggest leaving that part alone. It may be evident but proving it will be difficult. FB

[Beavah 205]

Yah, Dozy... hard case.

 

Your problem isn't with a BOR. The difficulty in your unit is that you have a group of people ("new guard") who are causin' conflict, in part by viewing things as "us" (new guard) vs. "them" (old guard). Yeh are forgettin' that adult-level scoutin' is about shared service.

 

These things happen in units when the adults don't have a common vision of the mission, particularly where da CO is only weakly involved.

 

I think you need to decide whether your goal is to split the troop (with all the attendant consequences including possible folding altogether, or the possibility of the committee and CO simply removing the "troublemakers"). Are the "new guard" ready to run things themselves? If so, you are proceeding correctly. There is a chance that the "old guard" will get tired and just quit with their sons, and then you can run the troop as you see fit. At least until the next "new guard" decides to take you on.

 

My alternate advice would be to take a deep breath and withdraw the appeals to the district. The proper thing is to never allow "immediate appeal" when tempers are hot. That should not have happened. Wait for the BOR's written summary, then appeal properly with calmer heads to the unit committee.

 

In the interim, find a mediator in a good commissioner and get everyone to sit down and talk about goals and values. It may be that people are gettin' riled up over molehills, and with a bit of assisted discussion all da parties can settle into a truce and common understanding of service. It may also be that yeh don't share goals and values, in which case the only reasonable solution is to start/move to a second unit.

 

Finally, if all else fails, bind and gag all of the adults and put them in a room to watch the kids decide what they really want. My guess is that you'll find the boys are wiser, more mature, and more values-focused than their adult peers.

 

 

[kraut-60 10]

I would suggest having the Troop committee take your councils Troop Committee Challenge. Our Troop recently had this training and it was great!

 

The training is aimed towards newer scouters or those with a little fore knowledge of the ins and outs of being a scouter.

 

The training is also a good benchmark reminder for older, seasoned scouters as it reiterates the duties each committee position has and clearly outlines the who, what, where and when the committe has to know to function effectively.

 

You could almost say that Troop Committee Challenge might be called "Troop committee for dummies", but I wouldnt call anyone on a TC a dummy.

 

I suppose the biggest task you will face if your TC does take the TCC, is to actually get them all together to do it. Maybe some of the seasoned TC members will feel its just more "been there, done that", but I would urge them to attend anyway.

 

We had about 6 members attend our recent TCC, of which we had the new CC, COR, ASM, and the CM's who fill the Equipment coordinator and Training coordinator positions.

 

We plan to hold this training again this winter for those who didnt make the last one. We ordered in pizza and had those attending bring their beverage of choice. A good time for all!

[Dozy 10]

quoting Beavah: In the interim, find a mediator in a good commissioner and get everyone to sit down and talk about goals and values.

 

The mediator part is coming via our Disctrict Executive, and that's in August.

 

Yes, it does seem that the Troop will either split... and yes, the COR is not only weak, but non-participatory - a relative ghost.

 

We don't want a "new guard" and "old guard" situation... we want all new people to be on the same page when they come in so that they have the full information before they even join so that they can decide (Hey, I like how this is being run! or No way, this Troop is toooo disorganized!)

 

If I had that inkling when I checked the troop out, I would not have had my son join and begin to make friends, I would have done more searching. On the surface, everything looked good. How were they NOT on the same page... it took a while, but the first and foremost,

 

1) the Troop was NOT following the Patrol Method, they were actually a merit badge mill and the POR's were a joke, and

 

2) only the Scoutmaster was Youth Protection Trained. Absolutely no other Committee member was YP Trained, nor were they Committee or BOR trained. I found this out months AFTER I took these trainings. I found out that they made up rules as they went along, including Committee structure as well as elections... there weren't any, people just apointed themselves as chairs.

 

I've been involved since August 2005 on the Committee... my son in that Troop since Feb 2005, my husband, the Scoutmaster since July 2005. We had absolutely no idea how badly run this troop or the committee was. The previous SM was a great guy, there 9 years and burned out. Was he ran by the CM? I would say that HE ran THEIR program. All the CM's boys received MB's and all of the CM's boys made Eagle?

 

As we found out, no one has the appreciation for what the Eagle is, to them, it's something to put on a resume' and as I learn, will be on the resume's on at least 3 extremely undeserving boys who achieved that rank.

 

What does the "new guard" want to do? When the new SM interviewed for the position, he was clear and up front... I'm running it "by the book" and using the Patrol Method. He was installed. I guess he wasn't clearn on WHICH book he wanted to run the Troop by? He meant the BSA book.

 

As far as I can see, the "new guard" are on the same page. We want by-laws and procedures to be spelled out so that there's no confusion (and believe me, there's been Confusion galore!) We don't want to leave for another troop or start another Troop, we want to fix the one we're at. To us, it would appear like "quitting" to the boys. I know that you have to "know when to fold 'em", but we want that to be a last resort.

 

AND then we will insist on training... that no one can serve on the board unless they receive the appropriate training to serve. They cannot simply have a "vote" if they are not trained. Once we are all on equal footing, we can go from there. We have at least two "new guard" people trained in Roberts Rules of Order and ready to take the chair to TEACh others... and that's another thing. Teaching new members is important. One cannot simply be "treasurer" for a year and then throw the checkbook at the new guy and say, it's your job now, I'm outta here!

 

So you see how screwed up we are?

 

Yet the boys are a great bunch of boys... the troop is small, but it was 5 guys when we started and we're up to 14 now. And several of the boys are ScoutReach. So here's the dilemma... is this thing REALLY for the boys? or is it for the parents? Once the adults can answer THAT question honestly, then we can move foward.

 

AND EVERYONE, a huge thank you. You have made me realize that this is not a symptom among most troops or CM's, just an occasional one. Your advice is TRULY appreciated.(This message has been edited by Dozy)

[CA_Scouter 11]

Dozy,

 

Forgive my impestuousness, but I see both the old guard and the new guard in a power struggle and both completely disregarding the concept of a boy-run troop.

 

I sense quoting of rules and procedures, resentment towards other adults, jealously and infighting.

 

This quote "All the CM's boys received MB's and all of the CM's boys made Eagle? " I find particulary disturbing. There are many families with multiple Eagle scouts, both my brother and I achieved the rank - FAIRLY AND EQUITABLY. Its not fair for you to assume they made Eagle only because their parent was a CM ( or because you personally don't like the CM ). The entire process of Scoutmaster conferences and Boards of Review works to prevent any kind of favoritism or abuse to occur. It would take a MONUMENTAL conspiracy, stretching over several years, to make that happen... and how would you explain the DISTRICT permitting the boys to get Eagle? Does the conspiracy reach that far?

 

Sorry, though this may have started out as an honest attempt to bring about change, this is now a power struggle. The boys are collateral damage. :-(

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dozy 10]

"Forgive my impestuousness, but I see both the old guard and the new guard in a power struggle and both completely disregarding the concept of a boy-run troop. "

The "old guard" isn't interested in a boy run troop. Last August, at my first committee meeing, the new SM talked about his plans. The CC actually said, "You aren't serious about having the boys run things!" Which leads me to believe that under the previous SM for the previous 9 years, they had an adult run troop and this CC was a Troop Committee member during that entire time.

"There are many families with multiple Eagle scouts, both my brother and I achieved the rank - FAIRLY AND EQUITABLY. Its not fair for you to assume they made Eagle only because their parent was a CM ( or because you personally don't like the CM ). "

I don't want to assume this... actually, I thought it was quite admirable that they appeared to have a program geared toward helping the Scout go all the way. What I found out was that they had no program at all -- not even a Life Coach. What I found out is that they did NOT have a boy lead troop, just rotating PORs. What I found out was that all PORs were just patches and even the SPL didn't do anything... he didn't even open meetings. He barely functioned at summer cap. What I found was a poor excuse for a Boy Scout Troop that had gone unchecked because our unit had not had a commissioner in years and still does not... and it appears that as long as the parents were getting what they wanted, why rock the boat? Until the new SM comes along and discovers that they were running a baby sitting service where they did Merit Badges. The boys could not tie knots, could not raise a dining fly, couldn't even make a camp fire without fire water. These were Star and Life Scouts, not new scouts or Tenderfeet.

Troops like these can cast a giant shadow on good Troops who have a great program that supports the boy all the way... like the Troop you were a part of. I have plenty of evidence to have to assume very little. It's a "nose on your face" deal

"and how would you explain the DISTRICT permitting the boys to get Eagle? Does the conspiracy reach that far? "

Judging by the first 2 EBOR's I was a memberof, I thought the District was honest. Judging by the EBOR where the CC's son was involved, I now have my doubts. We actually witnessed the CC's wife suddenly reappearing at functions within the last 3 months and schmoozing the DAC and other EBOR district members.

We still hoped that the EBOR would remain impartial in spite of this, and I was reasonably reassured that this would be the case when I attended Life to Eagle training (without coming out to ask, hey, will you be an impartial EBOR with this boy).

I was not on the EBOR of boy #3but I was an observer. The EBOR could have been labeled a joke. It was easier than the Tenderfoot BOR's Isat on,and did not come close to resembling the 2 EBOR's I was a member of. The first EBOR I sat on lasted nearly the entire hour. The second (his brother) five months later, lasted about 45 minutes. This third EBOR lasted15 minutes to the tick of the clock. The questions were superficial. If only it could have been recorded... but I have to let it go. The the opinion of those who observed -- the kid slid by. He was never asked any questions about his Eagle project!!!! and that's supposed weigh heavily into the decision ! ! !

The power struggle is between those who are leaving and the new guys whove come in. The new guys who've come in noticed the deficiencies and went and got some training. But the old guys, not only refuse to relinquish command, they don't even vote on it.

Last year, suddenly a new guy was chairman. As the newbie, not wanting to make waves as most newbies do, slip into the background... I kept waiting for the meeting where we would vote for the new CC, but it never came. At rechartering the new guy was just inserted... Heck, no committee by-laws, they can do anything they want and they have, for years! and proceed to rule the SM and the new CM's, trying to with an iron fist, but meeting resistance for the very first time, ME, someone who actually went and got trained.

Seriously, this last year has been spent getting boy #3 to Eagle, not boys #1 and #2 who also became Eagle during this time and on their own. Boys #1 and #2 were not old guard boys, they were new guard boys and therefore did not get any help in achieving their Ranks, they got them completely on their own.

Do you see, you don't need x-ray vision to see that this old guard had only one focus, one boy, (instead of all of the boys).

OK now, so boy #3 is now an Eagle (though not yet approved by National). Boy #3 goes to Summer Camp and the dung is flying.

OK SM's what would you do?

Day 1 check in time... by the evening, 17 year old new Eagle wants to go home.Evening 1. Eagleeats food in his tent and it's strictly prohibited tohave food in the tent at this Summer Camp.Eats a can of peanuts and apound of beefjerky Day 2. 17 year old Eagle has stomach ache. Refused to go to health lodge. Is forced to go, and Pepto Bismal does the trick. He pleads to sleep in his cot. Scout needs to go to Health Lodge to get his meds (autistic scout). Suddenly Eagle bolts out of his tent and volunteers to be his buddy. Guess what, this Eagle NEVER takes him to get his medication. That's right. Eagle goes into Plan B mode and eventually convinces autistic scout the HE wants to go home, and now we have two allegedly home sick scouts.... see the dots, there's more, like littering the woods and messing up his tent to deliberately black hoo-ha the Troop.... and SM has no choice, he's writing an incident report because Scouts were hurt on this trip BECAUSE of this Eagle (not physically, but mentally and financially hurt).

Why is this boy an Eagle? Caught in the transition between old SM and new SM, the CC managed to even circumvent the Eagle Application process using the old SM to sign paperwork when he was NOT the official SM at the time. New SM wasn't even in the loop, but thought he was. Suddenly there's a BOR, new SM found out about it, too late to stop it. New SM was NOT going to approve this guy for Eagle, at least not yet, and that's how they played the game.

See, evidence. What can we do. Nothing. Just wait for this "old guard" to leave. Do they want to leave. No, unfortunately, they don't.

AND the boys (1 boy) got hurt in this process now because the old guard refused his advancement to Star rank -- a 13 year old, agood scout with 100% attendance during his Rank advancement period, with 100% participating in Troop Service Projects, did some SP's on his own (total 18 hours). Earned his required merit badges, had, emphasis on HAD, tons of Scout Spirit, only to be deferred for unsubstantiated reasons.

AND AS we found out, that at least, in the last 15 years, this was the first non-Eagle scout in this troop that has ever been deferred. That's right. No other scout in the Troop during the last 15 years had received any time of deferment in any rank until this "good" scout comes along and is made a victim in their power struggle. The new guys aren't trying to take away the power of the old guys, we're just trying to support the SM and because the old guys want to run the troop, they aren't having it... at the expense of a boy. So that's why were fighting the deferment all the way to District level. But heck, the District Chair is the same guy who approved the 3rd Scout for Eagle. Is their favoritism? The appeal is 10 days old... we won't know until we know. AND if we have to go higher, we will so that we can keep this boy in Scouting.

So, I apologize if my responses are on the heated side. You've run into someone on a CM that absolutely has no business to exist, but a good CO with a lousy COR, and a good core of scouts and just a few dedicated parents. We're not ready to quit for other troops or to fundraise to start a new Troop. It's not fair to the boys, some of who will be completely displaced because they are ScoutReach, and would not be able to be absorbed by a new Troop in another location.

[Dozy 10]

Now, I don't know if this makes matters better or worse, or what I can do, or should do or not do, but I have just become a voting member of our District as an Family FOS Chair. My first meeting is a Program Launch in a few weeks, and of course, I'm in training for my new 'volunteer' position.

 

The last thing I want is to find it difficult to ask for money and FOS volunteers from people to support scouting.

 

I like the people at my disctrct, I've met many over the last few months. I find them dedicated, etc., and very enthusiastic. I'm willing to overlook occasional favortism by perhaps the DAC in our Eagle case. Stuff happens. But can I be willing to overlook "boys getting hurt" (mentally - God forbid physically) by those who are trying to run the Troop into the ground -- boys who have parents who aren't strong enough to stand up for their sons or need the support of others... who feel the same way I do: the SM's great, the core scouts are great, the outings are great, they get along, there are two patrols, it's a boy led troop with monthly PLC's, etc., There are just 7 people on the committee who make it hell for the other 6 to enjoy scouting. We're out voted.

[Beavah 205]

this "good" scout comes along and is made a victim in their power struggle

 

Dozy, don't take this the wrong way, eh? But I think you need to own your part of this issue. It's not "their power struggle." If you're honest, you need to say it's "our power struggle."

 

For da most part, the stuff yeh mention is fairly ordinary bad scouting. A SM or CC's kid slidin' by a bit without personal motivation because mom/dad are doin' the motivatin'; a kid who doesn't really want to be at camp maneuverin' to be sent home. While the proper response for an 11-year-old doin' that is to keep him in camp and be supportive; the proper response for a 17-year-old Eagle is to send him home. SM blew that call; shrug and move on, or volunteer to be SM.

 

You have a unit with a lot of challenges - ScoutReach, an autistic boy, etc. You simply can't serve those kids well if the adults are locked in a shootin' match with each other. All of you are hurtin' kids. Yeh need to take a deep breath and decide whether continuin' down this adult scortched earth path is really more important than the kids are.

 

I return to my original suggestion. Bind and gag all of the adults, and let them watch da kids resolve these issues. The boys know whether a kid is really Star, or really Eagle. They know whiney behavior at camp when they see it. Given a bit of room, their social pressure teaches a better lesson than any poor adult gatekeepin'. All your adults need to retire to neutral corners and get out of the way.

 

One more suggestion, though. If Advancement Method isn't workin' for yeh in terms of developing character because the adults can't handle it, then drop Advancement altogether. No boy can earn any rank for at least a year. Better to serve the aims of character and citizenship than to hold onto a method which isn't workin' for you. Durin' that year, maybe the boys and adults will re-learn to value people for their knowledge, ability, and Scout Spirit, which is all Advancement method is tryin' to teach anyway.

 

 

 

 

[Dozy 10]

I am not to blame for this. I have not done anything to fuel this fire. I and othershave done everythingwecan to protect the boy(s) and support the SM and run a quality program, despite the heirchy.

When someone tries to help, do we automatically call that person someone "who hurts"?.... or do we preferto make an issue out of people who "makes waves" or brings problems to light? Wow, we didn't have problems until SHE came along! No! They were swept under the rug! They were never dealth with! A problem exists until it is solved, no matter how many times it's swept away, the dirt keeps coming back.

Are we to be peoplewho are on a sinking ship and grab the first lifeboat instead of help save someone from drowing? Is that what we are to teach our scouts? Quit and move on? That's what it sounds like what I'm reading.Leave a sinking ship and don't bother to save anyone... whether they drown or not, it's not your problem?

Your suggestions would truly benefit reasonable people. This is not a reasonable bunch of coconuts.

SM blew that call; Sorry, the father (the CC)was called and the father (the CC) insisted that the Eagle stay the week. SM's hads were tied.

 

We live in a small community. Due to logistics, changing troops is not an option for most of the scout parents... it's either this troop or leave scouting altogether. The parents don't want to do this, they just want CM support of the program they like the SM doing, instead of a power struggle. The ScoutReach boys would lose completely. Quitting is not an option!(This message has been edited by Dozy)