Dozy

F Scouter: What do you mean by?: The Scout has no "right" to select his MB counselor except from choices offered by the SM.

If there is an approved MB list, why can't the Scout choose with whome he'd like to work? Perhaps he would prefer a male over a female in a particular area, or vice versa. Perhaps he does not want the MB counselor for "basketry" who is a scouts mother, with whome he does not have an affinity with, so he'd prefer to go outside the troop and choose from the District list. If the SM says, I approve for you to do this Merit Badge, is should be OK for the boy to receive the list and make his phone calls and set up appointments with whomever he wants. He's not going at it alone, he will have a buddy, the list is approved, etc. What right does the scout not have?

Also, "The committee ought not to be micromanaging the SM. If they don't like the way he administers the Scout program, they can work with him to achieve consensus, or select another SM. "

That's the biggest problem, isn't it... the troop committee wants to run the program and the SM. Micromanage is a word I've been throwing around for months.(This message has been edited by Dozy)(This message has been edited by Dozy)

On June 20, a young man had his Eagle BOR. He passed. His parents either already had or went out and purchased an Eagle patch. At the last minute he asked to go to Summer Camp (June 25 was 1st day). His mother sewed on an Eagle patch... he went as an Eagle.

He has not yet been approved by National.

Was this OK?

I know that for other Rank Advancements, the scout begins the Rank on the day he passes the BOR... but I don't think that's the case for Eagle.(This message has been edited by Dozy)

My son went to a LAW MB gentleman told my husband, sizing him up that he's way beyond the requirements in the book and wanted my son to do other things... even though he had already done some research on the requirements, for this MB man, it was for nothing.

Yes, we have since learned that a MBC cannot add or subtract, but must stick to the script. AND that's a good thing.

As for committee training... I am the only one Committee Trained, BOR trained and Youth Protection trained. All of the current members training has either expired (Youth Protection), or the other two, they never attended and they don't feel the need to, even the CC. So what can lowly me do?

At a Life to Eagle class I recently went to, the District guys there said that there is no rule regarding SM's and sons, etc., and there won't be one and it should be a non-issue on the committee. Whatever the SM, MBC or CC, etc., feels comfortable with, that is what they can do. If a parent is a qualified MB for let's say, Citizenship in the Nation, his/her son should not be required by some silly committee rules to go outside to someone else (that is unless the Scout choooses to do so). The Scout has the right to choose his MB counselor from the approved list, and if that's his parent, that I guess he's comfortable with his parent (or grandparent, or brother, sister, aunt, uncle, etc.)

Why single out the son for the father's or mothers Scouter position?

No offense.

What I mean by "lowly CM" is that I hold no position on my troops committee. I backup the SM and that's plenty. Plus, I'm coming up on my first year Anniversary as a CM and only within the last 6 months have activly pursued training (and that's because I found out that no one was trained at anything and they didn't know what they were doing... I deferred to them and mistakes were made in many areas... so I decided to get some education).

We've had a huge problem with semantics. We're in a maze hitting turns and walls and can't seem to get out of it. "Should" is one of those subjective areas where there's a huge disagreement, and it's already hostile.

Honey... oh yes, plenty of honey has been lavished upon this Troop Committee... many things have been let go, picking and choosing the battles that top the list that directly impact the Rank Advancement of the Scout, and the Quality of the unit.

But once you have good Scouts leaving over an adults inability to compromise on semantics (I guess we have to be unanimous on that, too), then what do you have left?

We need our vision to be the same from Committee, to Scoutmaster, to Parent (not necessarily in that order) for the boys to be served the best and for the adults not to become enemies.

Dare I say that the enemies list has already been created and it's about to be signed in blood. No, I'd rather it not get to that point, but I'm not the one leading the charge. But, however, I am gathering information through shared knowledge. Once I know that we are not alone in our problems... I guess you can say, it feels better that we're not the only misrable excuse for a Troop Committee out there (with some outstanding, top-notch scouts in spite of us)... that maybe we can overcome this.

However, we CAN't aree to disagree... this is not one of those areas where that is possible. We need a foundation, period.(This message has been edited by Dozy)

What I mean is that these BOR people, though Adult Leaders and Committee Members are not active participants in the Scout programs. They do not come to events, outings, meetings... they are not drivers or second Adult Leaders where 2-deep leadership is required. They volunteer for nothing, but show up for BOR's and Committee meetings and have their votes, but are not there to help carry out any suggestions they make... hence, they are not active at the support level or at the Troop level.

In our Troop, traditionall the SM and ASM do everything, I sub as an Adult Leader when required, which is often because due to the health of our ASM (hip problems), I'm available... and then, out of the 9 warm bodies that are left, no one wants to help be 2nd Adult leader.

We were told time and again, and of course, this is the guideline... no 2nd adult, no nothing. So here I come to save the day... again, and again, and again, and again.

So hence, these Scouts are being judged by people who do not actively participate as Adult Leaders in their own program.

All Star Rank requirements were met. Advancement deferred 3 months by BOR. Reasons cited:

1) Work on Merit Badges individually

2) Work on leadership and communication

3) Not enough initiative No additional information given to Scout. Any opinions?

(BOR members are not active Adult Leaders.)

As an SM, how would you feel the denial of Rank Advancment to a Scout, who, in your opinion, is a GO all the way?

I started this in another thread, but for different reasons. I'd just like to know how you SM's feel about being over-ridden by your Committee? OR, does this not happen to you?

AND I'd like to discuss this either on this issue, or any other issue, to this end... you, the SM being circumvented by your Troop Committee -- being that the SM basically sets the quality control standards for the troop, spends the most time with the scout or scouts, and the TC is supposed to support the SM and may or may not necessarily have ever spent time as Adult Leaders.

Thanks,

Dozy

(a lowly committee member)

1) Is it a Conflict of Interest if an Assistant Scoutmaster is also the Advancement Coordinator?

I can't find anywhere where this is prohibited, yet our Committee has outlawed this and removed the AC responsibility from our ASM.

2) Is it a Conflict of Interst if a Scoutmaster signs off his own sons book?

I've been told at our District meetings that there is nothing in any policy that states that a SM should not or may not or cannot sign his own son's Handbook, or put him up for review, or even approve him for Eagle.

3) Is it a Conflict of Interest that a Committee Chair cannot sign his own son's Eagle application?

Again, why not.  Why do sons of SM's have to be singled out "as if" SM's or CC's can't be fair with their own sons?

------------------------

In #2, my son was told by our Committee that his father MAY NOT sign his Handbook, that it MUST be signed by the ASM.  They told him that at his 1st Class & Star BOR's YET, they have never said anything to the SM.  Of course, this is totally inappropriate to tell a Scout at a BOR.

acco40

You have nailed what I have been searching for and this will REALLY help me at our committee meetings.

I will cc&p your post and use it, and possibly use it often.

Thanks

Dozy

Just a lowly committee member

Question?

1) if a scout goes to a jamboree with his dad, and camps, but not with a unit, does that count toward a camping MB?

2) can the scout do his swimming merit badge requirements without the MB counselor present? and on his honor tell the MB counselor, "yep, I did the requirements"?

These are Eagle required MB's. I've been told by our Former District Commissioner that a Family Event is a Family Event and a Scout Event is a Scout Event and the two are completely separate and cannot be counted one for the other.

So if dad takes the son camping, and even thought he son cooks, or gathers wood, or starts the campfire on one match, that's not being done with the SM.

Even if the SM takes his sone camping, and teaches his son some scouting skills, that's still a family event, period, even if they wear their uniforms the entire time.

So, if it takes a potential Eagle scout 5 years to achieve a 20 night Camping MB badge, then it takes him 5 years, or the SM and the CM need to reevaluate their camping schedule and make some 2 nighters every now and again.

However, I will be going over the books to see if I'm in error or if this should be just a subjective judgment call AND unfortunately, not everything is spelled out neatly in the manuals.

(This message has been edited by Dozy)

I say, we had two similar situations in our Troop, and in the past year. Two boys, seemingly underserving.

Some of you may know that our Troop committee is messed up. In this case, the new SM inheritied three life scouts. One exceptional, one marginal, and one wasted (the son of the committee chair).

Because our CM was not BOR trained, we messed all three of them up in one way or another. The SM was pressured on many sides, the program was halted, etc., all sorts of snafus happened, monies for events disappeared, etc., so that the wasted kid could make Eagle.

From 2005 to now:

Kid #1 had a 98% attendance record in meetings and events. An outstanding Eagle and very deserving.

Kid #2 had an 83% attendance record. Scout skills were good, but attitude wasn't. Attitude was worked on, Scout made a turn-around, SM made recommendation. He's now an Eagle.

Kid #3 had a 38% attendance record. Scout skills are practically non existent... can't tie knots, can't start a fire. Leadership skills are thumbs down... he's actually a bad example to new scouts. But he's the chairmans son, and a doctor's son.

All kinds of pressure has been placed on the new SM. The new SM insisted on a change in several areas. A meeting between a parent (the chairman) and 3 Committee members was held. (notice here how the EBOR will be stacked). Now, the new SM does not want to keep the boy from making Eagle, he wants the boy to meet the standards of Eagle and the standards of the Scout Law. Did I mention this boy is an OA rep?

Anyway, these 4 gentleman did babysitting duty for about 5 months to get this boy SM satisfied and BOR ready. Even though he just met the SM's standards, he did not exceed them. BUT, the SM decided to sign the application. We held a mock BOR and then a final BOR where he made Eagle. Actually, the BOR was impressive.

AND THEN CAME SUMMER CAMP.

I guess since the boy decided that he's now an Eagle, his true colors can come out. Although the Eagle has not yet been officially awarded or approved by National, it's in those final stages... the Eagle is a given, but the boy is a great dung artist who made Summer Camp miserable for his Troop and SM, as well as some of the camp staff.

The SM is currently working on an incident report because there was just too much that occurred to overlook and sweep under a rug. He must be made an example of to the boys who witnessed his un-Eagle-like behavior.

You say there are checks and balances? I guess there are, and a few vultures make it in the end.

We were told by our District Executive... basically, "the Eagle procedures are NOT designed to keep a scout from making Eagle."

AND "the Scoutmaster rules and the committee drools", which means, if the SM does not recommend the boy, the buck stops there. An EBOR cannot even proceed without a SM's letter.

OUR SM, being new and inheriting a bad situation, knew that he was not the one responsible for the boy reaching the rank he was at. Once look and even those not familiar with scouting could see that this boy was barely 1st class. So, should he be the one responsible for limiting this boy?

Like I said, a few months of work and intensive care by 4 adult leaders and the boy passed the barest of the SM's recommendations and BS'd his way to the top.

I only hope that someday, he deserves that Eagle, because it sure isn't right now.

quoting Beavah: In the interim, find a mediator in a good commissioner and get everyone to sit down and talk about goals and values.

The mediator part is coming via our Disctrict Executive, and that's in August.

Yes, it does seem that the Troop will either split... and yes, the COR is not only weak, but non-participatory - a relative ghost.

We don't want a "new guard" and "old guard" situation... we want all new people to be on the same page when they come in so that they have the full information before they even join so that they can decide (Hey, I like how this is being run! or No way, this Troop is toooo disorganized!)

If I had that inkling when I checked the troop out, I would not have had my son join and begin to make friends, I would have done more searching. On the surface, everything looked good. How were they NOT on the same page... it took a while, but the first and foremost,

1) the Troop was NOT following the Patrol Method, they were actually a merit badge mill and the POR's were a joke, and

2) only the Scoutmaster was Youth Protection Trained. Absolutely no other Committee member was YP Trained, nor were they Committee or BOR trained. I found this out months AFTER I took these trainings. I found out that they made up rules as they went along, including Committee structure as well as elections... there weren't any, people just apointed themselves as chairs.

I've been involved since August 2005 on the Committee... my son in that Troop since Feb 2005, my husband, the Scoutmaster since July 2005. We had absolutely no idea how badly run this troop or the committee was. The previous SM was a great guy, there 9 years and burned out. Was he ran by the CM? I would say that HE ran THEIR program. All the CM's boys received MB's and all of the CM's boys made Eagle?

As we found out, no one has the appreciation for what the Eagle is, to them, it's something to put on a resume' and as I learn, will be on the resume's on at least 3 extremely undeserving boys who achieved that rank.

What does the "new guard" want to do? When the new SM interviewed for the position, he was clear and up front... I'm running it "by the book" and using the Patrol Method. He was installed. I guess he wasn't clearn on WHICH book he wanted to run the Troop by? He meant the BSA book.

As far as I can see, the "new guard" are on the same page. We want by-laws and procedures to be spelled out so that there's no confusion (and believe me, there's been Confusion galore!) We don't want to leave for another troop or start another Troop, we want to fix the one we're at. To us, it would appear like "quitting" to the boys. I know that you have to "know when to fold 'em", but we want that to be a last resort.

AND then we will insist on training... that no one can serve on the board unless they receive the appropriate training to serve. They cannot simply have a "vote" if they are not trained. Once we are all on equal footing, we can go from there. We have at least two "new guard" people trained in Roberts Rules of Order and ready to take the chair to TEACh others... and that's another thing. Teaching new members is important. One cannot simply be "treasurer" for a year and then throw the checkbook at the new guy and say, it's your job now, I'm outta here!

So you see how screwed up we are?

Yet the boys are a great bunch of boys... the troop is small, but it was 5 guys when we started and we're up to 14 now. And several of the boys are ScoutReach. So here's the dilemma... is this thing REALLY for the boys? or is it for the parents? Once the adults can answer THAT question honestly, then we can move foward.

AND EVERYONE, a huge thank you. You have made me realize that this is not a symptom among most troops or CM's, just an occasional one. Your advice is TRULY appreciated.(This message has been edited by Dozy)

An immediate appeal was made to the Board, denied

An immediate appeal was made to the Commmittee, denied

Now, it's going to district.

The whole and complete story (and yes, the board needs training).

It's easy.

He was denied because of not enough Service Hours, period.

At immediate appeal, SM said that he not only had the 6 required Service Hours but he had 18, only 4 hours less than the scout they approved.

At appeal time, 2 board members said, "Well, we don't FEEL he's ready."

Now that the reason for denial was satisified, 2 members began fishing for reasons to maintain the denial.

Yes, I know that I'm using the wrong words, it's not a denial, it's not pass or fail, just a failure to meet the requirements. AND if their's a failure, then it's the SM's failure, absolutely correct.

In this case there was no failure. The Scout performed and exceeded rank requirements yet the 2 members of the BOR refused to advance him.

That's why were fighting at District... because they stand on the fact that they have further issues and it's not unanmimous.

Sorry for straying off the subject of this thread AND thank you for responding.

AND our District said that anyone can file an appeal on behalf of the Scout, so we all did. 1 from the SM, one from me as committee member, one from a parent, and one who sat on the board, who was given the misinformation about the rank requirement and changed his vote immediately after the requirement was fulfilled. We're filing because protocal was violated AND there's evident malice towad the Scout.

I think a lot of folks come here looking for objective advise on the difficulties in their group.

That's about the size of it. I've been searching around these forums every now and again when I need some help with little things... but now I have a BIG issue which caused me to register as a member.

We have a situation of the "old guard" vs the "new guard" at the Troop Committee Level. In the beginning, the NG assumes that the OG is competent, capable, knows what the procedures are, etc.

Unfortunately, we've already had situations where Scouts where hurt (not physically) because proper procedure wasn't followed. This cased some of the NG to get books, get trained, and try to make changes. Yeah, like the OG wants to change the way they do things!

I'm an SM's wife, an Adult Leader and very active in our troop... It's small, about 15 boys (grown to 15 from five when the new SM took over a year ago).

Since then it has been one struggle after another.

My situationof the hour is:

A 13 year old Scout was denied advancement to Star. He is a slightly above average Scout, but not what you would call "top notch". He's a good kid, he has his moments, but he's not a bad kid, not disruptive, very helpful and is full of Scout Spirit.

He's done all of the requirements for Star and exceeded them. The SM put him up for Rank advancement. The Committee denied him.

I won't go into the reasons why except that it's a dislike situation with the Scout's mother. It's personal. They used reasons that can easily be disputed by the Scouts record.

We are in the process of filing an appeal with the District. As a matter of fact, I'm hand carrying it to the Disctrict Advance Chair tomorrow (Friday).

The appeal is coming from the SM, myself, his parents, and one of the Board of Review members.

We feel that this is a situation of abuse of power which led to the abuse of this boy (who is so upset he wants to quit scouting and summer camp which starts this Sunday).

Do you have any advice that I can follow so that this can be resolved in the boys favor?

I'd really appreciate it! Thanks. Dozy