dewASM

If you made me stand up in public and sing, I would be mortified. I have a terrible voice, know it and do not sing in public - except quietly in Church because God will forgive me.

Had I been made to do this as a child, I would probably never return to whatever venue caused me such embarrassment. However, being the goody two shoes that I was, a very stern reminder would have made me change my behavior.

My guess is that those who are willing to change their behavior do not need to be publicly humiliated to do it. And those who are not willing to change their behavior probably also do not care about singing in public. To them attention, either positive or negative, is good.

In general, I am not a fan of any corrective action that singles out any individual in public if it's sole purpose is humiliation or embarrassment. But then again, I am not fond of humor based on embarrassing others either. I simply believe there is a better way to make your point - or make people laugh - then making someone the target of ridicule.

I am always amazed at how quickly the claim of confidentiality or 'my hands are tied' comes out after someone has done something ridiculous or just plain wrong. Suddenly they don't want to talk about it. By then it is too late. If they did not want to talk about the situation with a Scout's parents, they should never have brought the subject up with the Scout.

BTW, I recognize the need for not addressing an entire group but am talking about a minor's parent.

And I believe that if these adults truly believed they were doing the right thing and protecting other Scouts, they would have no problem explaining their actions to a parent. I wouldn't.

I have to stick up for Basementdweller here. I have a Council a lot like his and understand his frustration. It often feels as if they try to make your life more difficult. I am not sure you understand the frustration unless you have been there. For those of you who have councils that provide assistance, Bravo!! and thank them. But people like us who not only do not get assistance but sometimes feel like they purposely try to annoy us, it is hard to open our wallets.

And before you all have a cow, in our district there is no Roundtable. The Spring Camporee was just cancelled. The winter event had nothing there that was advertised just a tour that we could have taken on our own any weekend. I do not have a UC. When I asked about a merit badge counselor for coin collecting I was told I would have to drive to Council an hour one way to get a name. When I got there, they handed me an old binder with unsorted pages. Some of those people were dead!

In our old troop, we had massive problems - way too many to list - I spoke to the DE who said he could do nothing for us. If we weren't happy, start a troop. So I found a sponsor, and a committee and boys. Then he said whoa, we should talk about this. Too late.

He has never handed me a single sheet of paper except popcorn material. At camp, he walks around the last day to ask how it went. My boys pay their own way to camp. A council camp that has tent platforms that are rotting and cots that collapse. But we go to council camp. At the last camp work day, our troop and only one other showed up. My DE was too busy to say thank you, he was painting a sign while my boys set up all the tents.

I recharter and do advancement on line.

I wanted a pair of pants for my son so went to council store. They did not have the correct size so said they would order them for me. It took 4 months to get the pants. I should have ordered them on line.

In the interest of full disclosure, there is one woman who works in the store who has been very helpful. She is on the committee of another troop and has shared tons of information with me. Everything from forms, planning, COH scripts. Not because she is paid to do this as part of her job, but as one volunteer to another.

So no, I don't contribute to FOS. Every penny I have to give to scouting goes to things my troop needs because that is the only way we get anything.

I have read this thread and the one from which it was spun and something about them 'bothered' me. I have finally come to the conclusion that I am bothered by the boy's mother contacting the old troop for records. Why? If the boy has his book and council had records, what could you need from the old troop? For merit badge partials, the boy should have a blue card. And even if you didn't, why open a can of worms just do it again.

It seems to me if the boy has been counseled and truly wants to start over, just do it. The mother's only purpose in going to the old troop would be to kind of thumb her nose as if to say "see you did not succeed in getting rid of us."

And that, in my very humble opinion, does not bode well for the new troop.

If the two mothers are fluent in English then the only reason to speak Polish is to exclude others and that is rude. I have been on the receiving end of being in a meeting where everyone spoke English and yet they conducted part of the meeting in Spanish. It did not matter whether they were speaking about me, it was done to make others feel unwelcome, excluded and isolated. This is not a civil rights matter, it is a matter of manners!

I work in Boy Scouts and this certainly doesn't pass my kind, courteous or thoughtful test.

I might moderate my thoughts, a little, if one or both is not fluent in English. Then this might be a matter of transmitting information but then a simple explanation to other would help.

This line:

"Yes he and dad camped with us....both memorable including the boy melting down when we threw him and his steak out of the patrol dining area. " ....

is one that particularly made me think of my nephew. A true 'punk' would have reveled in being thrown out. They would have worn it as a badge of honor. They would never let you see them care.

The 'melting down' is more indicative of a child who does care, who is surprised by the reaction...

Again, I have never met these people, but something in this narrative strikes a chord with me.

Hey SeattlePioneer

I wasn't trying to diagnose this Scout. Nor was I advocating indulging this Scout or my nephew in fact, my sister-in-law and I have had some heated discussions about the line between helping and overprotecting. And I also recognize that the responsibility lies with the parent to clue in leadership, but many parents, including my brother, have struggled mightily with admitting his son is not perfect. Though I frequently remind him that no child is perfect, some imperfections are just more noticeable than others.

When I read this thread, I could picture my nephew's smiling face in some of these scenarios. He wouldn't recognize the chaos he was creating. So I wanted to mention the possibility that there was more going on than one might think. To perhaps provide another way to view this behavior.

And in reality, maybe these people are just jerks. But maybe....

Just a question......

Is it possible this boy has issues? I can see my nephew who suffers from Aspergers doing some of these things. He is very intelligent and very high functioning BUT only eats certain foods, sleeps certain places, etc. And he lacks the social skills and ability to realize he should not wave his steak at other people. His sense of what is amusing or appropriate is not always on target he lacks the ability to 'read' a situation.

My nephew is also very literal. So if the requirement said help, he would help not do. If the requirement said go, but not how long to say for, once he arrived he would think he had completed the requirement. You need to carefully and fully explain exactly what you want him to do.

I can also see my brother not saying it is right doing some of the parental things ie taking him to a motel. He doesn't do it to be obnoxious but because he is often overwhelmed with fear for his child. Sadly, this often makes things worse but I can't condemn him because I do not live with his issues 24/7.

Some of the things you mentioned reminded of my nephew so I thought I would ask. Sometimes these issues can be hard to spot if a parent is not honest and upfront. Just a thought....

Yup, once a year by council. Always the first weekend in June.

Leader specific is usually once a year too. And no Roundtable in my district.

No NYLT in at least 3 years.

So my question is if training is so important that I must be mandated to do it, why is it not important to Council or District? To me it is clearly a very mixed message.

My problem is not the training but that they mandate training and then....

1. make me pay for it

2. I have to travel AT LEAST an hour and a half in each direction to take it

3. It is only given once a year and always on the same weekend. One which is not practical for me. I am a salesman working on commission and it is given during the busiest three weeks of my year. Not to mention it is the same weekend as Honor Society Inductions and several other events in June.

I am not the only one in my rural area to complain about the timing and logistics. Offer it at camp. I have said if they do it in the fall, I'm there. And every year Council promises to make changes and every year they offer the same thing.

Work with us, not against us.

This year they had NYLT scheduled for August. I was thrilled and going to send 2 boys. They just cancelled - and not for lack of participation. They hadn't even advertised it yet. I only knew because I went looking through the calendar for it.

When I asked, they suggested two alternates. Both are done over two weekends. One is more than two hours away. The other does one weekend at a camp 1.5 hours away and the second weekend is 3 hours away. to drop off and pick up means 16 hours of driving over two weekends, not to mention the cost in gas. Could they make training any more difficult?

I guess I see this a little differently. He has been active until the last meeting, so what makes you assume they are quitting? And his mother asked about schedules? So...

Maybe his mother is working overtime during tax season, his grandmother is sick, his brother is failing school, the roof leaks, the dog is dying,....

I think you get the idea. The reality is that scouting is only part of everyone's life. Wait a week or two, call, and just ask if everything is okay. Tell them the pack and den misses their son. Who knows they might be encouraged to return.

Case in point, I have a Scout (Boy scout not Cub) who has missed about two months of meetings. But it's a small town, so I know his dad was sent back to jail and his mom works nights tending bar. Every time I see him, I tell him we miss him. I send him notices of all events. He'll be back, probably, when life is not so hard. And even if he doesn't come back, he'll know someone continues to think about him.

Sometimes the problems are not so obvious. And sometimes life just interferes.

Did not start a pack, but did start a troop. I don't disagree that you need to follow the guidelines, but on a practical level, I might suggest:

1. What role will you play? Cubmaster, Committe Chair, Charter Org Rep

2. Now that you have chosen, find someone to fill the other roles.

3. This gives you a core group. Use this group to recruit the other adults you think you would need. I would suggest 3 more members of the committee (to add to the CC and COR) and several den leaders. You might be able to fill some den leaders from parents after sign up, but IMO having no leadership in place would be really scary!

3.Once you have your adults in place, have a planning meeting. What do you want to do for the year? When are you going to do it? Where will all this take place? Come up with a calendar. You can make changes or additions later, but you have to have a plan to start.

4. Okay, now how are you going to pay for it?

5. Lastly, divvy up the responsibilities. You cannot do it all (I tried!). Leave your planning meeting knowing you have a plan, a way to pay for it and people committed to making it work. don't forget to delegate the paperwork - it is easy to remember that someone should be in charge of recruitment but easy to forget who is in charge of the paper!

6. Now go get those boys!!!

It has not always been an easy process. We made mistakes, did things the hard way.....but the troop is thriving, the boys are happy, we see advancement. All in all, a positive experience.

Once we got operational, I started setting goals. It has helped me to focus on my goals for the year as a way to see the big picture. When something goes wrong or an event doesn't come off, I look at the goals and realize it is not the end of the world. Take a step back, have a cup of coffee and move toward that goal.

My frustration is more often that Scout events promise something and then don't deliver. Then it is hard to get the boys excited about the next event.

for example, last October at a big Centennial event, they promoted heavily a certain band. When we arrived, the band was not playing, instead there was a comedian. They had also promised areas to work on the Centennial merit badges but no one could find them either.

This year we did an event at Howes Cavern that was advertised to include booths to work on the geology merit badge. When we got there is was one woman sitting on the floor talking about some of the requirements. Interestingly, in the past, we have done a geology merit badge day at Herkimer Diamond Mine which was fabulous. Teachers and professionals in the field talking about rocks, the chance to dig, small groups. The boys loved it.

Don't promise what you can't deliver. As a salesman, I know this is the worst thing you can do. Better to keep their expectations low and surprise them but not so low that you do not interest them in coming. Be excited about an event, be positive, tell them what they will get from it but don't say it and not do it.

RememberSchiff Bravo! That is it exactly. I had the local science teacher ready to Environmental Science and Geology. Fascinating guy who lives off the grid actually generates his own electricity. But the whole references, YP, etc turned him off. He has been teaching for 37 years. Has done all this, why do it again.

And FYI, someone who wants to harm a child will do so even if they have taken YP. In fact, they are the ones willing to take YP if it means access to children. YP is about covering someone's butt not protecting children. Ask me about the local priest who was committee chair who was just convicted of spanking little boys. Did YP for Scouts, Virtus at church, etc. It did not matter.

Lisabob you will be proud to know that I counsel several badges and do so council-wide. I have been asked to work on Communications with boys from another troop. However, I must say it was because I know a member of their committee through the council office. But it was great. I enjoyed meeting and talking to the boys.

If we want experts, we need to streamline the process while still protecting the boys and I agree that the protection will come from the parents and leaders. Truthfully, educating the boys to avoid potentially threatening situations is the best way to safeguard them.

Clemlaw: "I wonder what they'll make of it when they get an application out of the blue from someone interested in counseling a few obscure MB's, and who is willing to work with any Scout in the council. "

Oh Clemlaw, how I wished you lived in upstate NY!!!

Finding MB counselors has been one of the hardest parts of being a new Scoutmaster in a new troop, because so few people think like you do. And we live a very rural area which limits the talent pool.

Hey Infoscouter, I was unclear on that website, who exactly is Scoutmaster Bucky? Is this council sponsored?

I must say he has very nice worksheets! LOL And I liked that on some prerequisites, he requires signatures ie if it was a presentation on the troop level, it required the signature of the SPL or Scoutmaster.

However, did I read it right, communications in 4 hours? That doesn't sound like enough time. I am a Communications MB counselor, and the last time we did it, I spent an hour on ways to communicate - just that. Okay, I am a communicating fool! But we spent time talking about things like interpreting body language. In fact, I kept telling one Scout, "I like you Dan" consistently moving closer and changing the tone of my voice. As I got close and gazed at him, he finally jumped up saying "Okay now you are just freaking me out!". It was very funny and everyone got the point.

On the other hand, I can see that 4 hours on coin collecting might work. But then again, I don't do that badge so I might be wrong.

I am relatively new to Scouting and our boys have not attended a merit badge day but I can see why it would be appealing to both Scouts and our troop. These are some of my issues with merit badge counselors and I would be interested in if these are new issues or issues in only our area.

1. Council does not have a current or usable merit badge counselor list just some old binders you can leaf through and call people to see if they are willing to still do a badge. Last time I went looking for something, I found someone who is dead and someone who I know left Scouting after an issue and chooses not to be involved. So our new troop must find merit badges for everything.

2. After I locate someone willing to work with the boys, I have to get applications filled out with references and tell them they need to be trained. I understand why this needs to be done but it immediately makes some rethink their offer!

3. Then comes the question of where to meet which is compounded by our very rural area. It is not like boys can walk everywhere. And people are not comfortable inviting young men they don't know well into their homes. In this day and age, everyone is cautious - including parents who are nervous about strangers.

4. Then you have to coordinate work schedules of the adults, sports and scout schedules of the boys, when can parents drive, etc.

So I have to say, the idea of a central location with council approved counselors and a time that everyone can plan around is appealing.

I am also not convinced that a merit badge day necessarily means a substandard approach to a merit badge. You could work one on one with a counselor for months and still not have a good grasp of the subject. On the other hand, a few hours with a knowledgeable person who is passionate about the subject could be amazing.

There is more than one way to do just about everything!

Our boys left a troop that basically only went to summer camp (there were many other reasons too!) and he have spent the last 18 months as a new unit trying to rebuild an outdoor program. But it hasn't always been easy. So before we place all the blame at the feet of the Scoutmaster, I would ask:

Were there enough adults willing to go?

Were there drivers? Always an issue for us. Everyone wants to send their sons away for the weekend but they don't want to drive them there. Many weekends my husband and I both drive in separate vehicles to get everyone and equipment to an event.

Did the boys actually sign up for the weekend? I have cancelled something that no one will commit to, just some maybes and I don't knows, only to have a number of people upset because they wanted to go. Say so!

Did the boys do the preparation asked of them ie plan menus, collect money, buy food? We had a weekend planned that I began cancelling because no food preparation was done in the past, I had jumped in fortunately one of the boys asked for a chance to organize, made calls and pulled it off but I will no longer do everything. You want to camp, it requires participation.

What was the weather? Here in the northeast, weather has been an issue. Consistent temperatures below zero. Last weekend we had wind that ripped off roofs and dropped trees on cars. I would not have camped last weekend, it was not safe. In the fall, we shortened one campout from two nights to one due to flooding.

Seven months sounds like a long time, but the troop is more than one person. What is everyone else doing to facilitate camping?

I am the Scoutmaster of a young troop (less than 2 years). We left another troop to form this one. The pack is chartered by the same people as our old troop. This year the pack had 4 boys earn the Arrow of Light and the all joined our troop.

Now I would like to take credit for for a great presentation or some fantastic formula but the reality is that the boys came to us because the like and respect the boys in our troop. These young men aspire to be like the slightly older young men who make up our troop. My scouts have gone out of their way to befriend these young men, acknowledging them at school, scout or sporting events. They also strive to be polite and gracious to the parents of the Cubs. It makes an impression.

My point is, the best recruiter is not the Scoutmaster or the CC but the Scouts themselves.

So perhaps the effort should go into improving not only the relationship between the Troop and pack, but more importantly between the Scouts and the Cubs and their families.

We collect dues monthly $5/month. Dues are collected by the scribe who keeps track on a simple chart.

He does have to chase boys for dues and I sometimes have to remind him to do that! However, I think it is important for the boys to be part of paying their way. A yearly fee will simply be a check from mom or dad.

I also make sure to tell them where their money goes. For example, when we recharter, I announce the charter and the cost involved. Scouts need to know that the Troop is using the money wisely.

When we work on the yearly calendar, we talk about expenses. We review the preceding year including ranks and merit badges earned and the cost to the troop to buy the patches for advancement. Every year we discuss the dues versus the option of paying for every patch earned.

If we want the boys to be involved in the financial support of the troop, we need to include them in some financial decisions as well

How about a hunt for the leprechaun's gold (candy coins, of course!). You could use compass directions if your boys are capable or more simple so many steps to the east, etc.... Might even be able to hide a small treasure for each den with directions that fit their ability levels.

Or hide paper shamrocks either inside or outside (still cold and snowy here in the northeast) and have the boys search. Den with the most shamrocks wins a prize.

Have someone tell a story of the leprechauns. Could even be a little spooky as leprechauns can be naughty little guys.

Green snacks are given. Dye the milk green and have green cookies or cupcakes with green icing.

This must be one of those urban legends. I have had some people tell me the same thing. That an Eagle Scout is required to maintain their project. When I asked what happens when they leave the area, I was told they were required to appoint someone else to maintain the project. Didn't really understand how this could be enforced.

But I have to say it is a nice idea for an Eagle Scout to make sure their projects are maintained, if necessary.

When I became SM of a brand new troop last year, a boy came to me asking about the coin collecting merit badge. I called council looking for a MBC. First I was told that I could not receive that information over the phone or via email. I would have to drive an hour to the council. Well, I did.

I was then handed two large three ring binders and told I could find one in them. They were sorted not by MB but by troop. As I leafed through troops closest to us I was amazed that many of the names in these books were no longer connected to scouting, very old and ill and some were even dead. Obviously these were not really MBC lists but just collections of old papers.

I did find two names from a well put together troop list but they were over an hour and a half away. We are still looking for someone closer.

My point is that at least in our council, a troop has to maintain its own MBC list. We are slowly building one.

Hoot

Gandhi

I am going to play devil's advocate and defend your BIL. Perhaps his frustration is not with the time spent in Scouting but the craziness that has become the PWD in many packs. There is more pressure on winning and perfect cars than on the father/son moment. Perhaps he is not comfortable in his ability to create a car with his son which will not be derided for being too slow.

My son loved PWD and worked hard with his dad on his car. Two years in a row he was a winner in the pack. The third year as he approached the final rounds (he did not win by the way) he was actually booed by people assembled in the gym. Truthfully that was almost the end of Scouting for our family.

I have heard stories from other people as well. PWD is not always a shining moment so I wouldn't condemn your BIL for his dislike of this one activity. FWIW