DenZero

The too many hats syndrome is certainly a problem at the district level. As Cubmaster of a struggling pack, Im happy to have a unit commissioner who is enthusiastic and helpful; this poor person doesnt know how to say no. In addition to being unit commissioner for too many units (about 10); my UC holds several other district positions, most of which are very demanding. With that kind of schedule, its tough to get a phone message returned or email answered. I usually call the District Executive first, rather than bother my UC.

I did this last summer. Fortunately we had an outdoor booth with more space, and were able to set up the Pinewood Derby track (except for the last section) and borrowed some boys cars from last year. Without this, it is unlikely that we would have got any boys to stop at the booth. If you can't do that, you need some kind of game, maybe with prizes (marked with contact info). A video probably won't draw people to the booth. We also had a quick craft project that they could take home, and set up a small tent.

Though it won't be a problem indoors, the first time I tried this, I had a big problem of brochures blowing away. I made a literature rack to prevent this.

Try to get another parent to relieve you, it can get pretty tedious sitting in a booth all day.

Be sure to get contact information from everyone who shows an interest, and follow up regularly with them.

It was a lot of work and expense, but it would have been worth it if we got any new recruits out of it.

Why don't you just put the activities on the calendar as Tiger Den activities, since the Tigers are half of the pack anyway. You can put out word that the older boys are welcome to come as guests of the Tigers.

Yeah, I got one too. Maybe because my pack is in such bad shape they thought some extra training might help. I'm holding out for BALOO training instead.

I also got "Scouting" and "Boys Life" for the first time on the same day. Maybe it's what we get for rechartering on time. Somehow I suspect everybody is getting the invitations.

This sounds a lot like our pack 2 years ago. The new Cubmaster started out with enthusiasm, but was soon in over his head. Since there wasn't a functioning committee, no one stepped in to help him out or raised a red flag that there were problems. At the end of the year the pack lost two thirds of the members, and almost didn't recharter, hasn't recovered, and is still likely to fold.

Don't wait. If you want the pack to continue, offer to be assistant Cubmaster or Committee Chair, and help out the poor guy. While you still have enough families, talk with all the parents and see if you can get more help. By the end of the school year it may be too late. Parents will run for the exits when they get frustrated with the leadership.

I think this is probably a good time to do recruiting. Last year I started talking with Kindergarten families in March to recruit as Tigers for the following year, but discovered I was already too late, that some had already been recruited by the rival pack.

Now is the time to recruit enough families that you will be able to keep the pack alive over the summer. When our previous CM didn't keep the pack active during the summer, more than half the pack dropped out, and the other pack trounced us in recruiting in the fall.

The tough thing is whether to concentrate on program, or on recruiting. Both are essential, but if you spend too much time on program, you have less time to spend on recruiting, and vice-versa. If the program suffers, retention becomes a problem, but if recruiting is successful; you might pick up some willing adults who can share the work.

Ccrumpton,

From my perspective, youre in pretty good shape. Just take it easy. Youve got a Chartered Org. Rep. who is willing to get involved, and some parents who are willing to get involved. Just cause youve got 8 boys doesnt mean you will be able to get 8 leaders, but hopefully youll be able to get a couple.

For our B&G last year, we reserved a back room at a local pizza joint. I decorated it with some stuff celebrating the 75th anniversary of Scouting (OK, a little late, but its what I found in storage). Just try to have some kind of an award for each boy so nobody feels left out.

Is there another pack taking advantage of the weakened condition by trying to recruit boys away? If not, you should be able to build up again.

Get to know your District Exec. really well, he can help you with lots of things including a spring recruiting drive.

Concerning achievements, the parents and den leaders (if any) should be recording them in the boys books. Just use the books and dont worry about a fancy system for tracking achievements.

I wish my pack were as well off as yours.

It looks like one of the next things I should do is have a chat with the Institutional Head. The Chartered Org. went through some leadership turmoil, but things have settled down. The current pastor seems supportive when we spoke briefly. Ill try to put out a request for assistance to the congregation. Maybe we can find someone who can help us improve our program until we get large enough to be self-sustaining. We might even find a new Chartered Org. Rep. who is willing to get involved. There must be some people in the congregation whose sons went through the pack or troop years ago, and would like to see it continue.

Despite what you read in old postings, the program this year is much better than last year. Despite the low numbers, it's not that much worse than the average pack, we are trying to Do Our Best.

Still you are probably right, it's hard to buck progress. 40 years ago there were 4 packs in our area, now there are 2, before long there will be 1. It's probably time I give up and stop wasting my time.

Thanks, Beavah.

To do some joint events with the nearby pack we need to get over the rivalry resulting from many years of competitive recruiting. 10-15 years ago the small pack was larger than the big pack, and the big pack, though probably not deliberately trying to eliminate the small pack, has worked very hard to expand its recruiting territory.

The PTA at our school is not cooperative, stating that they don't want to open up their events to outside organizations. Though this could be influenced by the top PTA leaders having boys in the large pack. I'll have to infiltrate the PTA from the bottom, starting with the room mothers in the lower grades.

The Troop was chartered at the school in the 1920s, and the pack followed later. I think they have been chartered at the church since the 1950s. The previous Chartered Org. Rep. had a keen interest in Scouting, and was quite supportive, but he moved away a couple years ago, and I think they had to find a replacement in a pinch at recharter time a year ago. Unfortunately the church has recruiting problems as well, and has very few families with school-age children; mostly their grandparents.

I had a talk with the district exec. and unit commissioner, and they are trying to help with recruiting and trying to find someone who can help boost the program until we can be self sustaining again, but I'm not holding my breath.

In hindsight, I wish I had known enough about how a pack is supposed to be run 2 years ago, when things appeared to be going well, and the cubmaster began having trouble doing his duties. Instead of finding someone to take over, people just left when they got frustrated with him. If someone had asked me, I suppose I would have stepped up then to at least be assistant, and fill in the gaps. By the time 2/3 of the families had left, it was too late.

>Who is the Chartering Organization?

The Church where we meet. They are hands-off, have an aging congregation and an indifferent Chartered Org. Rep. They also charter a Boy Scout Troop, which has also been shrinking, in part because we havent had Webelos IIs for them to recruit.

>Why do you believe families left one pack for the other? What is it doing better than the pack you are trying to save?

They have the resources to do almost everything better. They can certainly put on some big splashy events that we wouldnt consider. They have a better den program with a den leader for every den; we have to have combined dens. But the biggest reason is that the boys want to be with more boys, a den of 15 to 20 is more fun than a den of 3or 4. Also, the parents know that they can just drop off their boys and not be asked to take on a leadership position.

The Small Packs program is pretty basic, but the boys who show up at meetings and outings have a good time. The Big Packs program has its flaws too, but they arent very obvious, and its size is getting awkward.

It would be nice if the small pack could make its program more exciting than the big pack's, and create a draw, but I don't know how to do it with our limited leadership.

Making a Case for a School to Have a Pack of Its Own

The Background:

I'm trying to make a case for our school to have a pack of its own. Our school has had a pack since the 1940s, and it was pretty strong in the past, but over the last few years weak leadership has provided an opportunity for a neighboring pack to recruit quite successfully. Now the neighboring pack is huge, and the pack traditionally associated with our school is hanging on by the skin of its teeth. We did manage to recharter again, but don't have enough people to offer a really good program. We recruited a few boys in the fall, but most of them have dropped out or gone to the Big Pack down the road. As soon as the parents realized that if they wanted a good program they would have to step forward and take an active role, they ran for the exits. This puts the small pack in a death spiral. I spoke with some parents who went to the big pack, and they think that the big pack is too big, but they looked into the small pack, and decided it was too small. To become self-sustaining it needs to get big enough to appear desirable.

What were trying to do:

If this pack is going to continue, somehow we need to find some families who are interested in Cub Scouts, and also have an interest in our school having its own pack, and ideally would be willing to put a minimal amount of effort into trying to make it a success. I suppose this is similar to trying to start a new pack from scratch.

At the beginning of he school year, I tried telephoning the families in the school with Tiger or Wolf age boys, but with little success. Does anyone have any ideas on how to interest these families in Cub Scouting, and to persuade them that if they do decide to join Cub Scouts, they should support the school's own pack? When telephoning, I am lucky to eventually reach about 20% of the families I call. Does anyone have any ideas on how to leave a message that gets called back? I also tried mailing letters addressed to the boys, but didn't get any response. The District Exec. has helped distribute flyers, but the response has been sparse. There are still a lot of boys who are not in Cubs, but how can I reach them and persuade them to try it? Unfortunately, the easy recruits are already in the Big Pack. We probably also need to start working on next years Tigers now, but it would be nice to get some 1st and 2nd graders (and maybe 3rd and 4th) to help fill out the dens we have started.

Around here people do it all the time, for instance if you are from a small pack that can't get other families interested, or for a larger pack when you can't go the same weekend as the other families. You might want to find out who you are sharing a cabin with ahead of time so that you can introduce yourself, as you will probably want to hang around with them much of the time.

Wow, I just about fell off my chair reading that a pack would turn down a willing volunteer. We'd throw a banquet in your honor if you showed up at our pack.

If you stick around, a vacancy will turn up before long. If the pack is as successful as you say, it may experience some growth, and the den may become too big, and they may want to split the den up. It's not uncommon to recruit some new Wolves, so next year your Tiger den of 10 (or whatever) may be a Wolf den of 18 and be ripe for splitting, and in need of a new den leader.

Thanks, eolesen. It must be part of the Navisite outage. Not really DWM's fault. An estimated 175,000 web sites have been down for more than 3 1/2 days, and they're still down. Just an inconvenience for my pack's site and e-mail to be down, but a significant hardship for the thousands of small businesses that rely on their web sites and email.

My unit's web site has been on DWM hosting for a couple of years, they offered a pretty cheap rate for non-profit web sites.

However, it appears that they have been completely down for the past 2 days. Is anyone else using them, and have you been able to get a hold of them?

Wow, you guys are dedicated. As Committee Chair, Cubmaster & Temporary T-W-B-W Den Leader of a small pack, I'd be burnt out in no time if we tried to have more than 2 meetings a month. When talking with prospective parents, many of them would not consider signing up for Cub Scouts if it required taking their kid to another meeting every week, with all the other sports and activities. For now we are doing one pack meeting, one den meeting, and one outing per month. It's hard enough to get den leaders willing to hold one meeting a month. The large, successful pack nearby follows a similar schedule.

With the small pack, I tried to get some interest in a summer activity, but with people traveling and such, I couldn't find a single other pack family willing to participate. I also tried to promote the district day camp. The nearby large pack usually sends a block of kids to the council summer camp, and organizes one or two other small outings. They don't bother trying to hold pack or den meetings during the summer.

Thank you, GS-CS_leader.

I looked at the online version of the "Program Helps". The monthly themes seem awfully complicated. They might work for a big pack, but would be way too much work for a small pack to attempt. I think we can improvise meeting themes that can be as much fun, but a lot easier to implement. I've already looked at the other documents you mention, and they would be useful if someone would step forward to be den leader.

I'll try your suggestion and try to find out who the Kindergarten room mothers are, they will be useful allies for recruiting. The PTA leadership is not helpful, possibly because most of them are heavily involved with the Large Pack. We wanted to set up a booth at the school barbecue, but the PTA nixed it, saying they didn't want to allow "outside groups" to intrude. The principal, BTW, was a Cub Scout, and is cooperative with us.

Thank you GS-CS_leader for the suggestions.

The large dens at the large pack can be awkward, but work reasonably well, and they have a set of good dedicated den leaders. They have been trying to split up the dens, but it isnt easy.

Your packs situation does sound similar to mine. When I said 5 leaders to recharter, I was referring to the requirement for a Cubmaster, Committee Chair, 2 Committee Members and 1 den leader (also 1 Chartered Org. Rep., but we share him with the troop, and hes a name on paper only). In the past, the actual den leaders usually registered as committee members to fill the required positions. So you only need 1 paper den leader. To recharter we need 2 more registered adults beyond those that have agreed to continue.

The den meeting planning link looks useful. If I can lay out a plan for den meetings ready to go, it will be easy for parents to take on being ad hoc den leader, and make it look easy to be permanent den leader. If we got a Den Chief, he could do some of these. I should try subscribing to Scouting. The District Exec. didnt push subscribing when we rechartered last year. No way would I consider leading 2 dens on different nights, thats a fast road to burn-out.

Youre right about starting now to recruit next years Tigers. I waited until April-May of last year, thinking I was getting an early start, but people from the Large Pack had already contacted some of them.

Word of mouth is definitely the best recruiting method, but 100 mouths get more words out than 10, so we have to work 10 times as hard.

Hi newcubmaster07,

I'm new to this too myself, having recently ended up as Cubmaster, but my pack is in much worse shape than yours. I'm sure you will get better advice from the experts, but here's my take.

The Cub Scout Leader Book is an excellent resource, I read it and then went to basic leader training, which, except for youth protection, was mostly a repeat of what was in the book.

I'd be cautious about trying to increase the frequency of meetings, my small struggling pack and the large successful pack nearby both have one pack meeting, one den meeting and one or maybe two outings per month. The parents really don't want more meetings, the kids are in too many other activities.

Most of the packs around here encourage wearing the shirts and neckerchiefs. The boys often want the caps too. Virtually none of the cubs buys the official pants, they outgrow them too fast, and the rest of the uniform is a big enough expense. I wouldn't obsess about the uniforms, but others will disagree.

Your biggest problem sounds like it is the same as mine, being a lack of den leaders. I don't have any magic answers, but read the old posts in this forum and you'll find lots of ideas.

Good Luck.

Thank you GS-CS_leader for your lengthy reply, so heres a lengthy answer.

As an update, we held a parent's meeting a couple of evenings ago, and though the turnout was sparse, everyone who was there agreed that we _need_ den leaders, but no one was ready to take on the job. The treasurer agreed to plan the next Webelos den meeting with something advancement related, and a new mom agreed to do the same with the Wolves. I'll try to come up with something for the Bears to do that tries to fit with advancement for the Tiger(s) as well. I've warned the parents that we do need 5 registered leaders to recharter. I can only hope that will motivate them rather than scare them away.

To answer your questions on the background:

The pack was started in 1943, which is about the average age for packs in our district. It once was one of the largest, but has had some periods of weak leadership during the last decade. 2 years ago, after 3 years of regrowth, we had a good program with 4 dens, but an essentially non-existent pack committee. When the new cubmaster's work schedule became excessive, things in the pack fell apart, since people expected him to run everything. Last year we almost didn't recharter. I offered to be Committee Chair, as no one had actually done that job for a few years. When the Cubmaster stepped down officially last spring, I ended up taking over for him, so I'm temporarily both Cubmaster and Committee Chair. Despite falling into the position, I've been trying to Do My Best. I've worked hard on recruiting, and have doubled the size of the pack, which is still not where we need to be.

The best reason for continuing the pack is that our Troop would like to continue to have its own pack, in hopes that it may be able someday to recruit from it again. They have helped out from time to time, but not as much as I would like. Most of the parents in the pack also believe that our school should continue to have a pack of its own. One of the dads was in the pack in the 1970s, and is enthusiastic about its continuation, but has been reluctant to take a leadership position, out of fear that it would interfere with baseball. We have families in the pack who came to us because they felt overwhelmed by large packs. Of course the District Exec. doesn't want to lose another unit, and has been very supportive, as has the Commissioner. Our Chartered Org. Rep. is indifferent, and doesn't want to get involved.

There is a Very Large pack nearby, which would be happy to swallow up the small pack. There has been a (usually good-natured) rivalry between the 2 packs for decades. The large pack has benefited from having strong leadership for the last 10 years or so. (They used to be smaller than the Small Pack). They have been able to leverage their size by expanding their recruiting range beyond the school where they traditionally recruited. They can present a fancier program. They are attractive to parents who won't have to get involved, and can recruit circles around the small pack. They are getting close to the point where their size will become unwieldy. (Many of their dens have nearly 20 boys). There is a very large kindergarten class at the school we traditionally recruit from, if we recruit them hard in the spring, we stand a good chance of having a decent Tiger den. If we can get some leaders who are willing to commit, and dont let up on recruiting, the small pack can probably be saved. Still I feel discouraged from time to time, and often consider throwing in the towel, which would make things much easier for me.

You guys are lucky. Our council's base commission is only 15%, If I somehow get my login working and get the orders in on time, and manage to get the money in on time we can get a whopping 23%. It was possible to get additional bonuses for early bird sign-up last spring and if I had been willing or able to go to "popcorn training". There's also a bonus for increased sales, but we aren't elgible because the previous cubmaster wasn't willing to run a popcorn sale last year, an increase from zero doesn't count.

Most units around here only sell the popcorn as a last resort if they can't come up with a better fundraiser. If our pack were bigger, we'd certainly try something else.

So far this year weve be holding combined den meetings in our small pack (about 10 to 14 boys about half are Wolves) due to the fact that we dont have any den leaders. Im trying to do some arm-twisting, and know that I need to get at least one den leader to recharter.

Meanwhile, I am looking for ideas on meeting topics that can fit into advancement for multiple levels with 4 dens combined? If we are able to split into 2 dens, what works for other combinations (Tigers/Wolves) & (Bears/Webelos) or maybe (Wolves/Bears) & (Tigers/Webelos) or even (Tigers/Bears) & (Wolves/Webelos).

Our small pack has received a lot of help from our Dist. Exec., going to school and talking to the boys and sending them home with flyers and stickers. He spends a lot of his day doing this around the district. Without his help, our pack would have folded some time ago. Large units can get enough parents and scouts to recruit for them, but small units can''t compete without help from the D.E.

I suspect that in districts where the D.E. doesn''t help, there is a higher attrition of units.

Yours is a more extreme situation, but this helped for us last year. The ex-CM''s son (a Web I) was quite disruptive, my younger son (a Tiger) tends to emulate him. So what we did was swap responsibility, I worked with his boy and he worked with mine, so the "showing off bad behavior for dad" motivation was gone. Both boys were much more willing to behave once their parents weren''t involved. We had a similar situation with a Bear den leader''s son, being disruptive because it got him attention from mom.