dennis99ss

i am now going to have to look up what a admiral in the Portuguese tradition looks like........

I don't mind the knots, etc. What i am referring to is the hiking medals earned 40 years ago, trying to plan hikes where there is a medal so you can put one on yourself, etc.

I know it is wrong to judge the book by its cover, but, come on, one more medal and you are gonna need back surgery! bwahahaha

CC

good story. I had a similar scout with me in wolf, and had him through webelos and he followed me to the troop a couple years ago where i am now sm. Same situation with the parents, although i think some of the action was a call for attention.

I pulled my hair out many times over whether to ask this scout to leave. and received attention from the chair and cm. But i always came back to what one of my den parents said to me "God put you in the position to take this den leader job so you could help this boy" whenever I was about to say enough, I always went back to that conversation and stuck it out a little longer. While there was some bullying and physical push here and there, i was always able to bring a stop to it. It never went as far as what 17 was doing. So, jump forward a number of years, while he is not a model scout, i am very happy that he is still with us. I think, in some small part, that his being in scouting has helped him in life in general and calmed him down a bit and given him some structure where he can learn how to act.

unclear and got called on it. sorry bout that.

bye bye--leave the camp. BYE BYE - leave the troop.

and, if asked to leave the camp, there would have to be some intervention and proof on the scout's part that the conduct would not happen again in ordeer for him to continue to participate in any similar outings.

maybe a little more clear. throwing knives--they all leave the camp.

lemonade down the back -- without any other incident, counseling at the camp. with other issues, then that could be leave the camp.

throwing lemonade in the face I think is more of a personal attack and is probably asked to leave the camp, but of course, this could depend on circumstances.

duct tape to the bed. leave the camp and likely leave the troop--especially since there was apparently bullying at a previous summer camp.

of all, i think the knive throw and the duct tape are serious violations of bsa rules and not taking swift strong action is a failure of the responsibility we have as leaders. while i would want to try to have the troop help the child, my responsibility lies with the safety of the the entire troop and in following the rules. If i follow the rules and enforce them, i likely have some protection or backing from bsa or at least bsa will not have the tools to come after me and try to shift blame as much. if i don't follow the rules or enforce them, i am hanging alone in the lawsuit to follow.

Did i see where this kid bullied someone at summer camp. Sounds like a long term problem. But, moving first to the adult problem. Leadership is afraid to act it sounds like. I must say, this kid would not be camping with my troop, and likely i would recommend he be dismissed from the troop. Life is to short to be sued by a parent because of a juvie in the troop.

throwing knives. I would immediately think of what else is going to do, and who is he going to throw them at.

duct tape.--BYE BYE. and where were the leaders. they are as much at fault.

walking on thin ice. We don't have that here, but even so, I even know you dont do that and I dont care how deep it may may be. -- He is gone.

popping a kid--some counseling, but it never should have gotten to that pint.

lemonade down the back-- counseling, but, with things stacking up -- bye bye

lemonade in the face -- bye bye--shows something seriously wrong after everything else.

But, i need to gio back to the leaders. They failed in their duties to protect the boys. they are the ones who should be suspended as well

summer camp in july. take august off. one weekend in Sept., Oct., Nov., Dec., Jan., Feb., March, April, and may. A total of 10, including summer camp but excluding Philmont crew outings, wilderness survival nights, etc.

to the beavah crowd--right on. and, kudos to Sgt. Hulka

If you are worried about uniform pants, you are singing way to much kumbaya for me. Personally, I can't stand the leaders who are dressed like South American generals. They are likely more in it for themselves than for the boys. What kind of medal can I pin on my chest thought instead of what can I do for the boys.

My troop, I want the boys and adults to be involved. I prefer them to wear the shirts, but if they forget them due to football, basketball, baseball, etc. I want them there. I would rather have an active scout having fun out of uniform instead of a missing scout because he did not bring the uniform with him. I know, a very novel approach.

with adults, I want them involved. If that means they are involved without a uniform, so be it. Are they teaching, guiding, assisting and mentoring? if yes, they can wear pink for all i care.

Me, Jeans, boots, cowboy hat and a bsa shirt is my uniform. If i all of a sudden came in scout pants, and changed my hat to a bsa hat, the troop would think aliens had landed.

Thanks for the input. I like the idea of assistant QM's, and patrol designated tents. It would certainly help out the QM in the environment we have, and will continue to have with regards troop tents.

again, thanks.

I would like some feedback on possible inventory control policies, and see what you have found that works, and what has not.

We have about 50 scouts, and as a troop, we supply tents, tarps, cooking equipment, patrol boxes, troop first aid kits, tables, some chairs, etc.

Of course all of the boys do not go on each campout.

our scouts sleep 2 or 3 to a tent.

we have tried checking out tents, and rechecking them in after they have been cleaned, but with 20 tents coming back in at times, it is a very difficult job for the qm to open each tent, check it, record it, etc. The issue arrises on the next campout if another scout finds the tent he grabs was not cleaned properly, is missing a stake, etc.

we have some thought about going to assigning specific tents to specific scouts. has anybody done this, and how has it worked.

any other ideas from any inventory control guru would be appreciated, and i could suggest same to our qm.

As a sm in my first year in the position, I think there is a lot more to the job than appears on the surface.

So, my questions would be geared towards time, organization, structure and logistics.

Do the prospective sm's have the ability to be organized. Do they have a support system, i.e. wife, secretary, assistant, etc. to help him facilitate all that is required of the sm.

can he lead the asm's, and get them to work for him.

Can he delegate responsibility.

can he make 70% of the troop activities.

does he have an organizational plan for the asm's and the troop as a whole.

does he have a general plan on where he wants to take the troop, and if so, how is he going to do it.

The sm job, as everyone knows, is a huge undertaking. Personally, i could not do it without the assistance of wife and secretary and all of the asm's who step up to take over different duties and oversight.

Finally, does he have the support of the troop parents.

Just a comment.

Make it worthwhile. OA is competing for time, funds and committment with Boy Scouts, sports, job, school, etc. If the OA has nothing to give, it is pushed into the background.

OA seems to me to be competing with the troop--for time, resources, etc. Make it a true service organization, like NJHS or NHS, etc. Make it worth something, besides just another troop. If you are going to have the OA meaningful, make service a requirement for continued membership. Currently, it is a nothing, and, in my opinion, as many know, is faulty in many areas, but not to hijack the thread,--OA needs to show value, which it does not besides a line on a resume. Make it meaningful to those whose life is not singularly focused on scouts, but have other interests, like sports, jobs, school, girls, etc. Maybe you get out of the overwhelming desire for "secrecy" bs, and into the modern century, and you would see an increase of attendance, etc.

Basement--I think everyone agrees that the way your scouts were treated is not appropriate. However, I think you have attempted to hijack the thread, from a discussion of the different value of money in different troops, into a "I hate all well off troops" and "poor troops are better scouts than well off ones" discussion.

With regards to how your scouts were treated, I would be embarrased if any of my scouts made such comments, and would sit down and counsel them.

Further, It is not the equipment, means of transportation, etc. that makes a scout. It is the learning process and program that does.

With regards equipment, etc. I believe that the scouts follow the parents. Personally, I love REI. All of my equipment is from REI, as is all of my boys' equipment. Just because they sleep in a REI bag, or REI tent, etc. does not mean that their experience or scout worth is any less than someone who sleeps in a timber creek tent. It is a matter of being comfortable with the product. It is not that we are different, it is just that we do things differently.

In the spirit of the OP, however, we are a lucky troop. We have never had financial issues. We do fundraise, however, and some of the boys take it more seriously than others. Further, while we do fundraise, as a troop, we give over half of that away, to either church needs, community needs, habitat for hummanity, etc. I want the boys to learn giving is more important than getting.

With regards fundraising, the days where I would allow my boys to go door to door, without me being there, even in the neighborhood i live in, are long gone. I think a lot of people may share this thought.

"Some comments that I'd like you to consider.

(1) HAZING. Hazing used to be the Big Concern. Do you know of any concrete instance where a person was hazed at an OA function?

Having been in lodge leadership, having been involved in ceremonies, I never ran into any during my time as a scout. . . nor did I hear (and I kept an open ear) of any hazing in our lodge. We firmly--youth as well as adults--were opposed to letting hazing happen, since we liked the OA.

(2) Parents have fewer kids, and they also have concerns about abuse. . . as well as social pressure to "bond" and spend more time with their child. So now I read of troops with a gadzillion assistant scoutmasters! So this generation of parents wants to follow Johnny around more than those in the past.

(3) A mature parent should be able to sit down with the scoutmaster or OA representative, learn the contents of the Ordeal, etc., and judge for himself whether Johnny should do this. There is no particular need to physically attend the event.

(4) This said, it should be fine to let a parent attend if he has serious reason to do so, and not just jerking around or curious. As a youth I was very upset that my father asked to attend, and attending, a ceremony in which I was a principal. I just felt like the man was snooping and that this was a harmful thing to the serious business that we were trying to do. (The view of a youth).

(5) Developmentally, the youth doing the ceremonies take these seriously, and are perhaps even less likely than we adults to want to throw open the door to anybody, for any reason. "

Mr. Boyce:

Just some comments to the comments:

1. hazing. I don't think anyone has indicating that hazing is a norm. However, to look at the past is not an absolute representation of what will happen in the future. I am not saying it will, or is, etc., but, the "appearance" of the forum for such acvtion is sometimes just as bad as the action itself.

2. ASM I have a gadzillion scoutmasters. And I welcome it. It keeps the adults involved, gives them some ownership in the troop, and allows them to see and experience what their boys are doing. Much better than scout day care.

3. need to attend I think we should allow the parents to decide whether there is a need to attend, and, it really should not matter why they want to attend. Heck, if they want to go just to watch it like a award ceremony, they have the right to do so and we shouldn't try to convince them or encourage them not to. I just think differently, as is seen by my desire to have as many parents involved as want to be. I think every boy deserves to see his dad active.

4 and 5. serious business? I don't think any of the scouts in my troop consider the OA to be "serious business". resume points, maybe; serious business, No. Sorry, maybe things have changed with time.

Not really kicking tires, but just throwing some counter comments out there. Hopefully, it will get me into the club where I am just a dumb, stupid SOB who shouldn't have anything to do with anything because I think differently like SP or others. lol

i love some of the stories. makes me appreciate my parents even more. This summer we had 14 adults and 30+ scouts. We didn't have too many problems. We did have some adults follow groups around, but the camp wanted one adult from each troop to be with their trail to eagle classes, so it worked well. We did get some "hovering" but nothing like you all talk about. all in all it worked well. The homesick stuff is the main issue. We have a 13 yr old that gets homesick bad still. His folks aren't there (I think for that reason) but he comes from a very close family, so I chalk it up to that.

I want as many adults to come as can make it. As we went 600 miles away this past summer and are going further this summer, it kind of makes the adults stay the week. We got a lot of training done, and, all of the adults came back with a desire to work for the troop, and not hover in the troop.

first, all of my parents who attend campouts are ypt trained. And, all have submitted an application. It is required at bsa camps and summer camps around here. Not just active asm's etc., but all of them. I have asked them to take the training, and they have done so.

and, why is there a difference if an adult is on one side of a camp site, or the other. We seldom camp at bsa facilities. Therefore we are most often in smaller state or federal campsites, with limited area.

and, what would be different from summer camp, when you are placed in a small confine.

I am the first to be aware of safety and appearances. However, as I indicated above, I have never encountered an adult setting up camp next to a scout tent, unless, all of us are in the same area.

but, in seperate campsites, or something of the like, i would have to question that. But, it has never happened. On occasion i have had boys who are leary of sleeping by themselves or without a parent, for a variety of reasons that I find acceptable, and, in those instances, the boys usually share a tent with dad.

intimidation

boy scout man with all of his proud medals looking like a south american general says to mom, we ask you not go inside. You can wait out here. We want you to respect our secrets. (or something like that) All high and mighty that this is the way things are done. I think mom is intimidated. she says, oh, I guess i really am not allowed. So yes, I agree with the above poster, any time you request someone to not attend, when they are allowed, is in effect telling them not to.

What is the real difference between we would really like it if you did not go in. you need to respect what we are doing here; and, sorry, you must leave. In actuality, there is no difference.

But, the seattle article, lets say one of the parents wanted to go along, and they were told we really want you to stay here. What a headline that would make. BSA not only does not enforce their safety rules, they have a system which encourages the breaking of such rules.

which, again, is what you advocate when you actively discourage attendance. Can you explain the program. yes. can you explain secrecy, yes. can you explain you must sit and observe only, yes. can you ask them to get out or stay away. no.

sorry bout that. don't know how the triple post happened.

I never discourage any parental involvement. If they want to camp, they camp. If they want to go to summer camp, they go. No questions asked.

The boys set up their tents where they want. If a parent sees the adults on the left and boys on the right, and sets up on the right, that is his deal. It hasn't happened yet.

"REQUESTING that they not exercise that right for a specific activity"

So, you go to a parent and tell them that while they are allowed, you would prefer them not to attend. Sounds kind of like intimidation. or more so, like we don't want you here. Thjere is a big difference between explaining the process and advising the parent to sit in the back and not disrupt, as opposed to asking them not to show up.

I never discourage any parental involvement. If they want to camp, they camp. If they want to go to summer camp, they go. No questions asked.

The boys set up their tents where they want. If a parent sees the adults on the left and boys on the right, and sets up on the right, that is his deal. It hasn't happened yet.

"REQUESTING that they not exercise that right for a specific activity"

So, you go to a parent and tell them that while they are allowed, you would prefer them not to attend. Sounds kind of like intimidation. or more so, like we don't want you here. Thjere is a big difference between explaining the process and advising the parent to sit in the back and not disrupt, as opposed to asking them not to show up.

I never discourage any parental involvement. If they want to camp, they camp. If they want to go to summer camp, they go. No questions asked.

The boys set up their tents where they want. If a parent sees the adults on the left and boys on the right, and sets up on the right, that is his deal. It hasn't happened yet.

"REQUESTING that they not exercise that right for a specific activity"

So, you go to a parent and tell them that while they are allowed, you would prefer them not to attend. Sounds kind of like intimidation. or more so, like we don't want you here. Thjere is a big difference between explaining the process and advising the parent to sit in the back and not disrupt, as opposed to asking them not to show up.

"Papadaddy - What's your definition of "we've," "established," and "false"?

As BDPT00 wrote in the Christian objection thread: "You're referring to some religions, some lodges, and some parents. That's the problem. It's always about somebody, somewhere. ... Those making the issue out of nothing seem to think there is ... somewhere by somebody, but it's always somwwhere else by somebody else."

There is nothing in the practice, structure, goals or ceremonies of the Order that interferes with any member's religious obligation. "

Huh? This post simply affirms the notion that there are people that just don't get it.

I don't care what your opinion is about whether the OA interferes with someone's religion. That is not the question. The question is whether it is a true statement that "The ceremonies are not objectionable to any religious group" as espoused by Eagle92, in support of his contentions that his positions are valid.

This is a patently false statement. There are recognized religions that have policies against the BSA and by extension, the OA. There are people who find the ceremonies objectionable on religious grounds.

Your comments, shortridge, are insulting to those who are a member of a religion who does have objections, or to those who have objections based on religious grounds. Or, is it that you just don't count them, since their religious views differ from yours.

All in all, these comments, and the purported basis for some of the members' comments in this thread simply solidifies the argument that some on here wish to ignore the reality of the rules in place, and will reach to make a false interpretation of any rule, so long as it appears to support the position they are putting forth.

dead horse dead horse dead horse. In fact it is already at the glue factory.

i find it absolutely amazing, and extremely short sighted and selfish that any responsible adult would discourage an adult parent or guardian from attending. Have any of you even picked up a newspaper or looked at cnn online in the last several weeks?

to those of you who discourage parents from attending, why would you open yourself up to allegations of impropriety. So yes, short sighted and selfish. Mom comes out and says something happened to her child, she was "discouraged" to attend, and your name, and BSA, is on the front page.

And all so your non-secret ceremony can be "secret"? Just so you can boost your own ego as being a part of the "special" society, which, in the chapter associated with us, has extremely limited attendance because noone really cares or has time.

Sounds like a bunch of adults trying to be a part of something that gives them an ego boost because it is "secret".

give me a break, get a life

we have a debit/credit card. treasurer holds it, and authorizes use for online purchases, campsite reservations, etc.

correct me if I am wrong, but Goodman was also a Mason upon which the OA was or may have been patterned. As the Mason's have had religions objections lodged against it, it is not a far step to associate the same objections to the OA.

Very interesting.

First, I agree with Beavah

And, when my son was elected, I researched, and then researched some more. I read the ceremonies for the different levels. I read the catholic priest's complaints about the organization. Quite honestly, if you have not googled this to read his comments, you should. They make sense to me.

But, I also believe Beavah's comments about a boy's ability to withstand such pressures to change his beliefs are correct.

I see the Masonic influence on the OA, and the "desire" or "goal" to worship "something" but not God. Of course, most boys think it is all hokey anyway. The nail in the coffin, though, was when the OA didn't allow my wife to observe. It just solidified my thought that the OA really does have an agenda, even if some or most don't see it. (This is a source of another thread, so please don't hijack here). I simply mention this as it plays into the thought that there could be some dark forces at play.

So, do I allow the scouts in my troop join the OA, have elections, etc. Yes I do. If any of the scouts would become active (none of them really are) would I pass the priest's comments on to their parents--yes. Let them make up their own minds. If you were to believe that the ceremonies would be taken literally, and, follow all of the "OA needs to be secret talk" espoused by the adults on this site, you could classify the OA as a cult.

Instead of Big Bend, look at Buffalo Trails Scout ranch. It is a bit further from the border, and has trails that rival, if not more advanced than Philmont. (never done Philmont, but that is what I am told) They also have horse programs, throughout the year, etc. and are about an hour away from the McDonald Observatory.