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David CO

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Posts posted by David CO

  1. 5 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

    My understanding matches @T2Eagle & @Sentinel947.

    When you're at an event organized as a Scouting event, BSA YPT rules apply.  Of course a CO can impose even more restrictive rules, but they cannot waive any BSA YPT rules.  If a participant decides that they don't want to follow the BSA YPT rules, then they can leave the event.  It's a free society and no-one can compel anyone to attend the Scouting event. But, while there, we do require that those present follow the rules.

    BSA cannot always compel a non-member to leave a place that is not owned or controlled by BSA.  It is indeed a free society, and the unit can leave,  if they have a mind to do so, but they cannot always compel someone else to leave, or to follow their rules.  

  2. 2 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

    If they are on a BSA outing, with kids that aren't theirs, YPT absolutely applies for parents that aren't volunteers, but are at BSA events.  

    It depends on where the event is being held.  If it is on BSA owned property, then BSA can control the event.  If it is not on BSA property, BSA has little to no control over non-volunteers who happen to be at the event.  

    At my school, many school events are open to the public.  All attendees must have a ticket, even if the event is free.  On the back of the ticket is a statement that attendees agree to abide the rules and regulations for the event.  The rules are posted at the entrance.  Presenting the ticket for admission constitutes an acceptance of the agreement.

    We live in a free country.  People are not bound to obey anything other than the law (and the agreements they voluntarily accept).  Perhaps BSA should have some sort of ticket to their events, spelling out the rules and policies they agree to as a condition of attendance.

    In any case, I don't think scout leaders should try to enforce any rule or policy on non-members unless they have first established rock-solid grounds for doing so.  This would help us to avoid arguments and confrontations with non-member attendees who may not otherwise feel bound by rules they have never agreed to obey.


  3. I think we need to assume that those adult attendees (who choose to not register as unit leaders) don't want to be unit leaders.  They don't want to supervise the youth at scouting events.  They don't want to actively observe other adults and note YP violations.  They don't want to study the rules.  They just want to show up at the event to show their love and support for their kid.   

    We leaders should not depend on non-volunteers to do our jobs.  Let them just attend, and thank them for their support.

    • Upvote 3

  4. 37 minutes ago, FireStone said:

    We're kind of in a weird place in this organization when it comes to obedience.

    Yes we are.  

    I am not surprised that you equate obedience with military discipline.  Many people do.  I get that all the time in school.  When we tell kids to obey their teacher, they respond with a statement that they are not in the military.  We have somehow developed this attitude that obedience belongs only in the military.  If you teach obedience, you're being militaristic.

    BSA used to understand that a scout needs to be a good subordinate before he can learn to be a good leader.  


  5. 55 minutes ago, qwazse said:

    "moral injury" 

    I don't think you are accurately describing moral injury.  Moral injury is said to occur when someone is required to cede control to some other person who has the legitimate authority to make the decision.  A better example of this would be if a scout is required to cede control of an accident scene to a paramedic or police officer.  A key element of moral injury is that the other person actually has the legitimate authority to take charge.

    The term, moral injury, does not imply that a person should not give way to someone with legitimate authority.  It simply describes the emotional reaction that can happen in such a situation, particularly if there is a negative outcome.  In extreme cases, people might need psychological counseling for moral injury.

    It is wrong to equate moral injury with abuse.  A person who suffers a moral injury has not been abused.  Not all injuries are the result of abuse.


  6. 1 hour ago, Cambridgeskip said:

    I was genuinely surprised at how difficult they found it. It is of course something they are not used to, they are well used to doing as parents, teachers and, indeed, scout leaders tell them. They found the idea of saying no to an adult genuinely awkward and totally out of their comfort zone. I don’t know if that’s a reflection of our area or the kind of kids that come to scouts in that they generally do as they’re told.


    If your kids will generally do as their told, I wouldn't mess with it.  An occasional mishap is a small price to pay for having respectful and obedient children.

  7. 1 hour ago, njdrt-rdr said:

    That's some real backwards logic he has there. Scouting is not an infinite program. It's like saying that the amount of kids in school are dwindling because they are graduating...Huh....part of an active well run troop is a solid flow of scouts into the troop. The failure of a troop is not because of scouts ranking out and leaving, it's because of scouts not coming in.

    I agree with your first comment. Scouting is not an infinite program.  It ends at 18.  

    I have to disagree with your other comment about scouts ranking out.  There is no such thing as ranking out of scouting.  

    • Upvote 1

  8. 1 hour ago, Navybone said:

    Interesting argument - you are essentially saying that it is OK for a CO or a MBC to openly and actively work counter to the efforts, the goals, and the mission of Scout BSA.  Wonder why there may be issues is Scouts BSA.  I cannot help but look at this and think about the message that the scouts in troops like this are receiving and learning.  And then to look at the purpose behind scouting and what it hopes to instill in youth. 


    Yes.  This is because Scouts BSA is now openly and actively working counter to the goals and mission of my religion.  The message our scouts are receiving is very clearly articulated.  There is no hidden agenda.  Our boys should put their religion first.  


  9. 24 minutes ago, Navybone said:

    I cannot fathom a reason that a MBC would not want to council a female scout.  At least so long as the MBC is meeting all the Youth Protection requirements.   

    Really?  I can think of several.

    A MBC might not agree with the decision to include girls in scouting.  While he can't change the decision, he doesn't have to cooperate with it, and he doesn't have to donate his valuable time and skills to assist it.  Passive resistance.

    YP protects the youth.  It doesn't protect the MBC.  

    The Chartered Organization might not want him to be working with girls.  


  10. 1 hour ago, PACAN said:

    They are eliminating the Troop only option which is good especially for badges that there are few MBCs.   MBCs always have the option to tell a scout they aren't available right now.  

    They also have the option to discontinue being MBCs.  MBCs who choose the troop only option often do so because, though willing help out the scouts in their local unit, they have no desire to become unpaid employees of the council.


    • Upvote 1

  11. 1 hour ago, Cburkhardt said:

    Like I said, it is not doom and gloom.  We are in the midst of a very sophisticated program, management and financial workout.  The BSA is here to stay — just not in the form of a yesteryear format.  We have been changing all along and are doing so presently.  Have great faith.

    Except that Faith is probably the next thing to go.

  12. 42 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

    Hmmm. Of course cleanliness is a virtue and one of the a points of the Law, but ya'll sound as if you've never been on a Boy Scout camp out.


    My thoughts exactly.  It sounds like "primitive camping" is out.  Hand sanitizer is in.  Welcome to modern scouting.


  13. 42 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

     Or, a roster may be permitted when participants are enrolled in a school-based program provided to the students, and the school does not want individual applications used"

    You can see how that can easily be abused. If your council employs Paraprofessionals, they are usually the one who runs the after school meetings.  

    Your Council is playing an unethical game. 

    Yes, I can see how that could be easily abused by unethical executives (Is there any other kind?) who are trying to boost their numbers.

    There is good reason for the policy.  When I started my in-school unit 40 years ago, we did that.  We submitted a class roster and then started to recruit the kids.  It made it much easier to get started.  After a few years, we had a real roster with just the participating scouts.

    It is incredibly hard in an institution, like a school, to get seed funding for a unit unless you can guarantee a charter.  We needed to charter first and recruit later.  We couldn't have gotten the approval and funding without the charter.

    I agree that we probably shouldn't have been included in the stats until we got a real number, but the policy can be very helpful to a new in-school unit that needs a little time to organize itself.  Isn't that what a council is supposed to do?  Help the units?

  14. 2 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

    According to Linkedin the average salary for a DE is $40,000.  At 55 hours a week that's under $14 an hour, which is a tad more than my kid gets at Best Buy part time.

    It is also a little bit more than the average salary of a Catholic school teacher ($38,460).  If you calculate my hours, I make less than my state's minimum wage of $15 per hour.  A lot of people make less.  Anyone who has a steady job with benefits is lucky.  If they also enjoy their work as much as I do, they are very lucky.

    • Like 1