Life

36 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

As a victim/survivor, the last thing I want to do is be cold to anyone with a legitimate claim.  However, it's just not that hard to document you were a scout, like an affidavit from a fellow scout or at least something.  I still have all of my paperwork and awards from the 1960's, and certainly have the ability to contact living former fellow scouts.  It seems to be a pretty low bar for any kind of legal claim. 

Frankly, with all of the advertising and talk of big bucks for claimants, this is ripe for fraud and the insurers have the right to at least cursory vetting.  I have read lately about the large percentage of covid relief fraud compared to the legitimate payments.  And fines with jail time didn't seem to slow that down.  So, anything these days that is not documented should be vetted.  If a claimant cannot even give the name of a former fellow scout, that's a pretty tall leap for me to judge as legitimate.

I too do not want to minimize any truthful claim. Nor create a forest for a few trees scenario. But as a survivor/ victim myself, I have all my information as well as patches and all pertinent information. I also believe, after seeing the many ads on Facebook about how easy it would be to anonymously file a claim with no court involvement, that false claims would be a part of this. Those Facebook ads were brutal. The comments, ugh… I don’t agree, nor have I, with how this is going down. It is like being used all over again. 

2 hours ago, 100thEagleScout said:

National just continues to lie and lie.  I’m going to start calling low settlements “Boy Scout Settlements” from now on.  I find that the way they assert their opinion as fact is especially obnoxious.

They (BSA) have shown they cannot be trusted in the past by any cover ups that have taken place. Now they are trying to say the truth is false the false is truth. What is practiced at the top of an organization is what is learned at the bottom. I have to wonder if this bx is really scout like. As it were. 

5 minutes ago, acema606 said:

I got an email from National today.  Just an FYI I am not a victim.  Goes to the following link to BSA restructuring page, containing what I’m assuming is updated info.  https://www.bsarestructuring.org/survivors/
 

When running their calculator the claims amount still come in as we are being told by council they would. Super super low. They just put a lot of effort into saying what’s already been said. It’s a really low number. 

As it applies to this bankruptcy. This is a very volatile time. Many of us here want to see this plan rejected. I am voting ‘no’ for a variety of reasons. Primarily because I couldn’t say no when I was being taken advantage (molested) of by a scout master at a junior leadership training camp of all places. They have since changed the name.  I’m saying no to being taken advantage of now!!! I believe there can be a better outcome for those of us who were abused rather that for those who are trying to control this thing. 
Now is a time when we should be holding onto one and other. This is our shot. This is our opportunity to band together and say NO!! No what happened wasn’t right and neither is a quick buck out of this. It doesn’t end here. We will still have to live with it. But I’d rather live knowing I said no!! 
ive gained so much from this forum and to see people bickering and dropping out is sad in a way. It’s like the divide is taking place, during the worst possible time. Hang in there brothers! We got this! 
 

now back to our regular programming. 

6 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Yes. Good reinforcement. I was trying not to disparage the single attorney representing the 7 victims, but I would not have selected him. Not a chance.

On that note, anyone who is willing, I would love to know how you feel about your counsel in the case. I have heard about AVA (both sides of the experience), the Coalition, Zuckerman-Spaeder, Jeff Anderson, Tim Kosnoff and a few others. Curious. 

I’m pleased with my attorney. I had started working with them before the SOL in CA opened. We were in hopes the pending bill would pass and it did. The Gov. signed it and it went into affect Jan. 2020. My case was filed the following day. They walked me through a media report, then a forensic psych evaluation. Which was tough on me. Then the bankruptcy happened and we created and filed my claim. They have been adamant that any of the plans thus far have been inadequate. So they are consistent. When I feel like I need personal attention they reply to my email but I try to stay out of their hair. I’ve seen motions pop up here and there from them throughout this mess so I know they are working. 😎

Curious. Can we promote scouter. Com and the tcc townhall meetings  on the various platforms such as HIS YouTube channel, during the q and a at HIS town halls and any where else we can to get other less informed survivors to be exposed to the truth of all this?  Run on sentence, I know.. 

9 minutes ago, MYCVAStory said:

Well, just about any group can petition to be a "mediation party" so their inclusion was SOP.  Unfortunately 82,500 survivors are going to be the example of how mass tort bankruptcy has become a cottage industry for the legal and financial professions.  I think the group that was screaming loudest regarding their muscling in and power was the Coalition.  The judge has shown that she isn't buying it by already saying their fees would be thrown out of the current plan and she also cast doubt on a successful payment after plan approval unless the plan has widespread acceptance,  Consider as well that in bankruptcy the old saying is "You need a friend" and the BSA found one in the Coalition since it was willing to accept the lowball Hartford deal AND little youth protection change AND a trustee that is hand picked by the coalition (who also control trust governance based upon its membership).   The TCC has continued to represent Survivors and is clawing for every vote and educate Survivors.  If the plan goes down it's a new ballgame and the TCC can say "You all had your shot at this....now it's time to cooperate."  If the BSA wants to get out of Bankruptcy it'll listen.  Bonus crystal-balling...  A TCC plan will NEVER go out for a vote,  The judge won't let it drag on that long.  She'll send it to mediation with a message between 12/21 and a month later and if the parties can't agree she'll DISMISS the bankruptcy and tell the BSA "You had your shot at this voluntarily and couldn't pull it off.  Lawsuit injunctions are over.  Best of luck."  And then....well...if the BSA really is the "melting ice cube" it said would melt last August, then this November, well.......

Thank you for this explanation. At current I feel better about it. My attorneys have suggested I vote NO and have been of that mindset for a while now. 
thanks again. 

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

To comment briefly, only on the public perception and not the motive, many were confused by this. It was instrumental in securing them a position at the mediation table, imnsho. For many month the media represented them to be, effectively, the replacement entity to the TCC. I, and others, contacted them to object loudly and often. The media have since made it clear they are not, in part by doing a much better job covering what the TCC is saying and doing. For a good stretch there, I was pretty upset about it.

Thanks for speaking on this. My perception as this was taking place was that this “coalition “ was muscling their way into the bankruptcy and it left me confused and not feeling right.  It continues to baffle and leave me feeling un easy. Never really made sense. If the TCC was a panel made up of survivors why would we need another panel of opposing survivors? Then it became clear as to what it actually is. It still leaves me baffled as to why we have opposing sides. One side being survivors with their feet in the fire, the other being a group of attorneys. How is this not abundantly clear to the judge? 
 

im not trying to lawyer bash on this, just seeing a contrast that is odd.. 

The Coalition of attorneys representing abused scouts is now pushing media coverage of their getting 1 (one) survivor on the executive board. 

3 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

For reference

Coalition "recommended" reading in which they included TCC recommendation for completeness.

https://scoutingabusesurvivors.com/bankruptcy/

Plan Recommendation Letter  (Brown Rudnick - Vote to Accept)

BSA Cover Letter

Plan Summary and FAQ

BSA Disclosure Statement   [Docket No. 6445]

BSA Disclosure Statement Correction  (typo on page 253 of above)

Solicitation Procedures Order (signed judge order approving content procedures, and distribution of this packet and also the plan confirmation schedule)

Confirmation Hearing Notice

BALLOT

Unsecured Creditors Committee Letter

TCC Recommendation  (Vote to Reject)

 

They are, In a sense, making legal advice. Yet I think it important to read the Notice: at the bottom of their web page which states this not legal advice. 

26 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

Is there a "crying" emoji?  Based on the way this is unfolding, Pro se was a wise move on my part.  I cannot imagine a law firm sending 60% of $3500 (or less) to a client with any explanation.  How would that cover letter read?

Let’s not forget tax. 

26 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

You want dim sum, go to San Fransisco, CA. (Sorry NYC.)

You want country music, go to Nashville, TN.

You want the best beach, go to Hapuna on the Big Island of Hawaii.

You want the best art, go to the Met in NYC, NY.

You want the best BBQ, pie or hotdog...I ain't touching any of those.

You want to survive Chapter 11, go to Wilmington, DE.

Might be the one smart decision they made. Dunno.

I believe Louisville KY gets the bbq, pie, and hotdog. 

If this is the wrong place for this please forgive and redirect. 
I see some speak of their significant others in here and as a fellow survivor I understand the difficulty of having a romantic relationship. I’ve not been all that great at it. I wonder how you have been able to pull of this extraordinary task. That was a merit badge I was unable to attain. I like to think I have come a long ways in personal growth as it pertains to surviving, but as I step into a new venture with a lady I feel the old stuff come in. It gets cloudy at best. 
just curious. I feel comfortable putting this here because it is a part of what is. 

On 8/27/2021 at 1:26 PM, ThenNow said:

Question for my fellow survivor/victim claimants. What say you about this effort? As I’ve said, I hate the prospect of fraudulent claims and unethical attorneys, but have trepidation about letting the camels (Century/Chubb and Hartford) get their nose under the tent. Curious to hear your thoughts and feelings. Both matter to me. 

I think it’s a catch 22. On the one hand I don’t want someone to capitalize on what has been a life (for me) of constant struggle and just really hard. To say the least. 
on the other hand the motive to vet, at least in appearance, is to minimize damage to the insurance companies. So that process alone will come with its own darkness. This whole thing has been draining but we carry on. 

8 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Last note for the night, I think. What is difficult for non-victims to viscerally and deeply understand is this. Finding out about even the prospect of our Proof of Claim being used by others, without any due notice, is a massive trigger. When I read the article, it lit a short fuse. That fuse led to the implosion that occurs when I am confronted, yet again, with the falling, falling, falling into panic and despair that besets me when control is taken from me without my permission. Out of control body, my already fragile identity, my information and my fate. Everyone feels insecure when not in control. We feel the earth tremble, the ground open up beneath us and the seemingly inevitable slide toward dark places. 

I ‘like’ that you spoke my mind, but I dislike that it is the experience occurring. 
that being said, all wounds being splayed open, broken identity being run through again, I would welcome this in my case (with proper notice) on more than one occasion, due to the multiple investigations into the man that molested me, I would hope this time I wouldn’t be told to go home and just forget about it.  
who trained these people? 
thanks again for coming from the deep of your gut. It is helpful. 

3 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

As the judge just said (quoting BSA attorney Lauria) we are heading into an epic fight when it comes time for disclosure and what victims will be voting on. That fight just got 10 times harder because the TCC/FCR/Coalition, who previously were willing to partner with the BSA on a deal THAT DID NOT INCLUDE HARTFORD, will now walk away because the Hartford deal is back in.

It means that the exit is either

1. Delayed into 2022
2. ONLY going to cover BSA (and leave LCs and COs high and dry)
3. Something else

Keep in mind as well: the RSA agreement also put off or settled disputes over a) Sale of the HA bases b) valuing of claims, etc.

Thank you! 

In short, what does this all mean in terms of BSA exiting bankruptcy? My curiosity is in wondering about going back to court on a state level, continuing on with one of the original lawsuits. You all are so helpful. I’ve been loosing ground in the area of understanding what in the actual…. (Curse word) is going on.  
I will say I can read at a higher level than a fifth grader, as long as there are pictures to accompany. 

25 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

So, because of my extreme irritation that “we” were slighted and spited by the judge refusing Doug Kennedy the opportunity to speak, I needed to understand the context and story, assuming there was one. Being me, I reached out to the TCC and was able to catch up with Doug. Here’s what I learned.

Like me and many victim claimants, David Buchbinder’s request  at the outset of a previous hearing for a moment of pause and reverence to recognize the founding of Scouting, Doug and the TCC didn’t take that so well. Maybe it was innocuous and just a matter of, “Hey. Guess what happened on this day in history?” but it felt more like,  “in your face!” Following Mr. B’s commemorative moment, the TCC heard from a good number of victim claimants who were less than pleased. Based on his feelings, those of the other members of the TCC and what the heard from us, the decision was made to request “equal time.” The aim being to ask everyone to reflect on the “real reason” we are where we are and acknowledge those who have been sexually abused as children while active in Scouting. Of course, that recognition would include those who aren’t engaged in the circus, living and dead.

It was agreed by all concerned that Doug, on behalf of all victim claimants, be granted that time. Apparently, because the hearing was tardy in getting rolling putting the court under an even greater timeline, he was denied. He tried again following, with the same result. Like me, the TCC was a tad shellshocked after the US Trustee’s memorialization and would have otherwise jumped in immediately. Moment lost, but for good and understandable reasons. All that said, like most of us, Doug and the TCC aren’t easily discouraged or thrown off their game. (Admittedly, I’m a little more volatile and likely would’ve taken a less accommodating and gracious tack.) As was oft repeated in this week’s hearings, Doug commented that the process is currently more about the proverbial sausage making that the victims. In his words, “our day will come,”frustrating though it may be for now. The TCC is encouraged and remains fully committed to advocating for all of us.

I hope this is of benefit, particularly for my fellows.

Thanks for this. Thank you for your foot work. At first read it feels a bit gut punchy. And it still really does. The action of taking a moment, in the heat of a case involving sexual assault on children (I like truthy statements) (and ending them in Y, or why?) to recognize the birth of so many soul deaths is not only tone deaf, and dumb, but really a shed of light onto the actual mindset. Sad really. That was a perfect opportunity to an apology that could have been felt. At times I wish these proceedings were in person. In that fantasy I picture us all showing up for court, silently and in mass. I just finished reading Malcolm Gladwell’s ‘David and Goliath’ for some reason, for me, it relates to our plight. 
we don’t take a moment to recognize the birth of the World Trade Center, despite how many did well as a result of its conception, we memorialize the tragic loss of life that came as a result of the assault. 
extreme comparison? I think not. 

As usual I’m late for the party. Me over here trying to get into a zoom town-hall that’s been moved back again. 
always a brides maid, never a bride.

3 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Did you say “drama” or “trauma”?  

We have a bingo. 

3 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Yes! I’m officially nominating Animal House as the new analogy to replace The Circus. Perfect. 

I hope the play the “imperial March” score from Star Wars when the Judge walks in tomorrow. 

Re: punish the actual perp , not the overall good organization. 
 

when referencing a ‘warped society’ I imagine that includes the overall good organization. In short, they hid and covered up the truth of years of sexual abuse brought by adult men, in the overall good organizations uniform, onto young boys. That is not an overall good attribute. We are as ugly as our worse crimes. Society is afraid to look at, talk about, let alone examine child sexual abuse. We, the abused, are not. We are merely talking about it as loud as we can. What is ironic about this whole thing is we are still not having the talk, even though the overall good organization is being put to task. This is about “save my camp” and “get the overall good organization out of bankruptcy “ oh and “ continue to rape the actual survivors by turning it all into a fiasco and circus” 

here are the facts: men had sex with boys. Under the guise of scouting. 
 

to defend and minimize this is to perpetuate the ignorance that leaves us in a warped society. There is no justification. We are starting the un warping at the BSA. No better place. (I don’t know the opposite of warp) (to warp or not to warp? That is the question.) 

“warp speed scotty” 

“I’ve given it all she’s got captain”

”not even close” 

Also, where in thee hell is cancel culture when you need them? 

44 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Thank you and you're welcome.

Spend 50 years drowning in nightmares, therapy, in and out-patient treatment, depression, suicidal ideation, self-disgust, doubt and deprecation...after being raped at 10 and then repeatedly by a Scout Master you thought worthy of your trust and admiration and THEN come talk to me about what is or is not noble about an attorney who represents people like me. You literally have no standing whatsoever to opine on this subject. None. You are on the outside looking in upon a subject matter and life so complex you are only picking up vague, fleeting images of things you cannot comprehend and choose not to fully research or examine. Go back to knots and tin foil dinners. Please and thank you, yet again.

Don’t forget those Dutch oven cobblers we all use to love. That is until Dutch oven and anything scouting was synonymous with abuse. I can’t even remember why they were called Dutch ovens. Oh, and then there were the eggs in a basket. In all fairness silence of the lambs ruined that one for me. 

The calm before the storm. 

2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Thank you very much for your even-handed and heartfelt post. For me, and many of us I think, the question of “What if it was your child?” seems too often deflected and not answered honestly. It may appear (or feel) like we are asking it as a weapon of debate, not a deep and sincere entreaty to another human being. Personally, I think yours is the answer most people would have to give. I’m not advocating or condoning violence or any such, I just mean if you don’t have a visceral, protective reaction when confronted with the prospect of the sexual abuse victim being your child or a child you know, something seems amiss. Or, you’re refusing to look at it so you can fire back the next missive. 

As to the sense that “there’s not much that does help - no undoing what was done,” that’s true in part and less so as to the other. We can all agree about the undoing. What’s done is done, as to our historic BSA child sexual abuse. As I say, the abuse is the abuse is the abuse. It happened. It was bad. For many brutal. For nearly all of us, life changing to one degree or another. “Help” is very relative, of course, so it’s terribly hard to accurately define. I will give some examples of things that, for me, have qualified as “helping.” Then, I’ll recap what I said before about a good result, which would “help.”

1. Acknowledgment. I see you. I believe you. You are not alone. You are not forgotten. You are not crazy. You are not worthless. You have a future. You are a man. You did not invite this. You are not defective, even though you have been broken.

2. Listening. As you’ve seen/read, this forum has been helpful for some/many of us. It has been critical to my sanity since I first posted in December of last year. I’m grateful to have been welcomed, even in the midst of occasional canon fire. Sometimes, we just need to express the turmoil and be allowed to do so. It’s one of the most difficult things to do, especially when we are attacked for expressing it strongly. We’re doing our best, which may not seem like enough or an adequate excuse for heightened emotions. When others fail to consider what we’re going through and don’t understand we’re not just lurking around on an online forum looking to pick a fight, it is doubly difficult. When strongly challenged, especially as to our veracity or motive, we either attack back, flee or go numb. 

3. Support. One of the ways people support me is by simply asking, “Is there anything I can do for you today?” Sometimes, they get frustrated when I say “not that I can think of,” possibly surmising I’m trying to be a martyr, carrying the burden alone. When, in fact, I often just can’t think of anything. It’s the ASK and the obvious willingness to DO something that is important. This is why when some of you ask me/us what are obviously compassionate questions about what can be done (for us and in the future of Scouting) it means so much. When I/we sense the sincerity and concern, followed by active (virtual) listening and reflective responses, it’s powerful.

4. Don’t Solve for X. We can’t be “fixed” or solved, as to what happened to us. Fix the BSA. Please don’t come with your tool kit and try to look under the hood of victims and do your magic to make things run smoothly. Men, in particular, can be prone to over-simplify, race to a diagnosis and set off banging on things to make them work. This is way too complex. As I’ve said before, if you want to really understand, you’ll need to study the subject matter. You can read, The Body Keeps the Score and Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, to understand a bit about impacts. I can suggest others, as well. I could go on, but I’ll leave it there and other guys can add.

I did this in a previous post about a “good outcome” and may forget a couple point, but what would help at this stage, relative to the BSA drawing us out and into this would include:

1) YPT improvements (with all the elements I, MYCVAStory and others have noted); 

2) Full disclosure and accountability;

3) AG investigations;

4) As much money as we can get; and

5) An actual apology, not just “We are so saddened...that some were abused while a part of Scouting.” I tried to teach our kids, if you know you did something wrong, you don’t just throw out an obligatory, “Sorry” and think it’s over. Being sorry is about sorrow for what you said or did or didn’t do. That’s the root of the word. What I requested they do is say, “I’m sorry I ______. Would you please forgive me?” In my experience, adults have a very hard time doing that. Men are particularly challenged. I tried to let my kids hear me ask for forgiveness whenever it was appropriate. I tried to tell them I’m proud of them as often as possible. Still do. It’s something most of us as adults don’t hear. I make it a point to tell those around me on a regular basis. It’s interesting to see the look on a 50 year old man’s face when I tell him, “I’m proud of you for making that difficult decision.” Interestingly, I can see my little men in his eyes when it slides down into his heart. 

Honestly, I don’t think BSA has expressed sorrow. I think we are their embarrassing and vexing albatross. They are certainly not proud of us. Imagine being the poster boys for bringing down the Boy Scouts. I’ll stop there.

Yeah. This is my internal dilemma, as well. I gained much, lost more.

Camping, and all that goes into it, definitely produced the core benefit for me.

Again, your candor in expressing your struggle is appreciated. 

“The body keeps the score” is amazing. 
I also recommend 

“waking the tiger” David Levine. 
 

“emotional intelligence “ also has some great insights.