RobertCalifornia

When reviewing the list of BSA camp properties, I noticed that Grimes Canoe Base for Middle Tennessee Council was not listed. It was moved into a trust in June 2020.

https://assessment.cot.tn.gov/RE_Assessment/ParcelDetailIMPACT.aspx

Are there any minutes or a recorded zoom from the May 19 meeting? 

4 minutes ago, qwazse said:

We'd have to dig through some old forums to find the discussions. But, there has been a shift in policy away from developing restricted assets. Chances are most of the newer camps (or camps with newer expansions) are unrestricted.

Camps with restrictions are older because councils can't sell them off.

The acquisition land in the face of declining membership has been an ongoing topic of these forums.

Makes sense....who wants to own a restricted old camp on the beach if you can sell it for a windfall and build a modern camp to meet your needs. 

Just glancing through the council assets, I was a bit surprised that a lot of camps were unrestricted. It would not surprise me if BSA owned more forest land than most small states.

There are at least 10 councils that have 50 million in assets. There are probably 30 that have 10 million or more.

The big ones were Sam Houston, Circle 10, Atlanta, and the America councils. These are over 600 million. Then, there are a bunch of councils smaller than 5 million.

I would like to see the TCC plan and those local council analysis sheets. 

Some more musings:

A global settlement is the only way that BSA will make it. With any other plan, the only long term winners will be the insurance companies and attorneys. 

Local councils want and need for this problem to go away. It affects moral, fundraising, and recruitment. A smart young employee would be looking for other careers...why suffer?

Local councils will go higher. They don’t have a choice. And, they are prepared to do so. They need a global settlement.

Some councils are already on the verge of failing/merging now. They have cut staff and are redistricting. They can spin as becoming leaner, but that is bs.

A lot of Scout shops are not owned by the council. The national office pays rent and the salaries for the staff. The council receives a percentage for local and online sales.

Insurance companies are the big problem. The Hartford deal is laughable. The fact that Century/Chubb is not cooperating is predictable. 

SOL’s across states are a mess. Depending on the state, you are “Safe On Litigation” or “S—t Out of Luck”. 

For all claims to receive some legitimate compensation, the insurance funds have to reach into the 10’s of billions. 

39 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

So I looked up my LC it has over 17M in net assets as of now I am the only claimant. I am in California as is the LC.  I would think they would have to pony up a big chunk now or a larger chunk later. thoughts?

I would say that you are in a good position....under the circumstances.

I stand corrected. CS is not an attorney, but he obviously has been sleeping at Holiday Inns because he seems like a fast learner.

Two more observations:

1) since we are all anonymous, it stands to reason that some of us could be operatives for insurance companies, BSA,,etc. I’ve seen enough movies to know that insurance companies do not play fair. I’ve seen enough people LIE before Congress at hearings to the point of ridiculousness. Give somebody some money and they will just about say anything.

2) assuming school access and a good fall recruitment, BSA will have income past August. I believe thier new member fee is $25. So, if they could recruit 1 million new members then that is $25 million. Renew some old members and retain some new members at $70 is $70 million from Dec-March. So, they have some income. 

The bankruptcy will have an affect on fall recruitment because the media always covers negative BSA news every year during August and September like clockwork. And quite possibly, the BSA is so under staffed and demoralized at local council levels, they may not even have much of a fall membership drive.

34 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Obviously, I'm not a lawyer, but trials have painfully detailed rules for disclosure ... expert witnesses, research, reports, etc..   

 

 

I’m not a lawyer either. But, I believe CynicalScouter holds title to esquire. He and other attorneys have provided some great insight into this case. Are you sure that you have read all the threads related to this case?

100 million has been wasted thus far and most of this could have been hashed out while waiting for Nov.16. 

With litigation looming, BSA thought they could enter bankruptcy and at worst have 20,000 victims. Well, that is no longer the case. 

None of us here  can determine the fate of this case. Some will determine the future of their local Scouting whatever that may look like.

I have been paying attention. Bankruptcy is only about math. It cares not the least for our feelings.

There are only two questions: how much? And when?

I’ve scoured the Internet for information. This forum is it.

Where else would/should one discuss it?

There has been a great emphasis for healthy local councils to accumulate cash and stock investments as endowments.

Why? Years ago, many councils were almost exclusively funded by community chests....aka United Way. Well, UW funding is no longer strong in many areas. In many cases, the BSA is basically defunded especially for the amount of work that is invested to hope o get those funds. Many dollars have been solicited to build a fund to replace those  dollars. 

A lot of the people who donated the funds are below ground. They won’t be too upset. 

Again anther reset. Unless you are a legacy scouter and your family has donated significantly to camps and financial endowment, then you really can’t fuss much. Rebuild it, or not. 

For the most part, local councils accumulated thier endowments through designated gifts, wills, excess large gifts etc. They built their camps through capital campaigns and land gifts. Many still have mortgages. 

I see the taking of these properties as a reset. Today’s scouts will pay a higher annual registration fee, but it is not more than what is charged by other groups/sports teams that usually only last a few months. 

For the most part, the current participants have invested very little in these camp assets beyond buying a brick or special patch to held build some camp improvements. The big projects are usually covered by large gifts acquired to fund those projects specifically. 

In other words, my camp in the 70-80’s was built before this scout attended and my family had nothing to do with it being there. My $5 annual registration and selling scout show tickets did not make that camp available to me. 

Most camp infrastructure and council investments were large gifts and capital campaigns. So, unless a person has made those types of gifts to your local council, there is not a lot to legitimately fuss. Just keep doing scouting and go build another like others did for us. Or not.

31 minutes ago, yknot said:

 I got a donation request yesterday from council that insisted all funds stay local.

I would argue that is mostly true. Regardless of how this bankruptcy goes, the local councils only receive operating income from FOS, camping fees, investments, supply sales, etc. 

FOS funds support annual operations. Those funds are not invested in capital assets and primarily fund the day to day operations and salaries of the nonprofit. Same for any United Way funds that are not specific for some program service. 

All the letters are terrible to read. I’ve just about read enough.

I did find it interesting that 3 or 4 of today’s victims have been, or still are in prison. 

BSA and LC’s will have to feel more pain around 1.5-2b and Hartford and Chubb need to be thinking around 30b is my guess. Insurance should pay more, but my guess is 1/3 of the 103b is more realistic assuming that they want to stay in business.

After vetting and assigning values, that might get a victims settlement around 1/3 of what they deserve and allow all businesses and BSA to survive.

At the low ball 103b valuation filed by TCC, each of the type of sexual abuse monetary award levels would basically be 1% for each billion in the settlement. 

Non-touching/other $50,000 X 0.01 X #(billions in settlement) = victim award - attorneys fees

10 billion = $5000

I believe TCC said their formula might have an additional +multiplier for #of times and then a -multiplier for statute of limitations variables.

Valuation

8 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Typo.

And BSA does not say how they categorize the Classes.

Classes are basically a way to measure size by membership and finances.  They will have the largest memberships and likely have higher populations with more potential market share. They will have the largest budgets and total assets. 

Class size is important for determining professional and support staff sizes. It would highly determine scout executive selection and the top end salary. 

Assuming constant membership and finances, if two class 500 councils were merged, then the new council would be double in size and might become a 300.

There is a measurement scale somewhere. 

I would like to say thank you for these informative threads on the bankruptcy!

Other than some info I found at reddit, there is not much out there to read. I enjoy the different opinions and the lessons about our legal system.

BSA has a big mess on its hands. Some of the local councils have pulled their heads out of the sand, but I would guess that the average volunteer and parent are just clueless that Philmont Trek 2022 may be gone and they may need to drive a bit further for summer camp.

I do have some opinions of my own that I will share. First, here is my $.02 on national BSA high adventure bases. Probably less than 5% of all Scouts or volunteers attend one. These assets just sit idle throughout much of the year.

Summitt - a money pit from day one, just get rid of it. I’ve heard nothing but horror stories or meh from those who have hiked all over it.

Sea Base - the dream job for a BSA program employee before retirement, cool programs, BSA owns a small deserted island and the base which consists of some docks, food area, and overnight accommodations. They own the kayaks and the small boats. They mostly contract with the sailboat owners. Sell it. Entrepreneurs will offer scouts the same program. Perhaps an aquatics minded tycoon will buy it, lease back to Scouts, then gift it back to BSA down the road.

Northern Tier- sell it, there are plenty of outfitters there that will provide an equal opportunity.

Philmont - the crown jewell, only about 22,000 Scouts use it annually when it is not closed for forest fire or pandemic. Is it a core asset? I say no. Great base camp programs, but Scouts can plan their own hikes in the Rockies or Appalachia’s. Sell it! I am willing to bet that a group of scouting philanthropists will come together, buy it, and return it to Scouts at some point.

Yes, I was a victim. I have been a survivor now for over 30 years. The BSA has basically dragged me into this mess....file a claim by 5pm on Nov. 16 or be forgotten. So, here we are.