SteveMM

My son and I were talking yesterday about his Eagle BoR, as he just got it scheduled for early next month.  We were looking at some resources together to try to give him an idea of what to expect.  As a member of the Troop Committee, I do a lot of the Boards of Review for his troop, and I said it would be a lot like the ones that he's done for every rank, except it would be longer and there would be more people in the room.  That led him to ask if I'd ever wanted to "fail" a Scout after a BoR.  I did almost do it once, and here's the story...

This was back when Scouts had to do a BoR for Eagle Palms.  I'd done a few of these, and they were always a really casual affair because, really, the kid was already an Eagle and had done a lot of them.  But, this one Scout made me wonder how the heck he got his Eagle in the first place.  As with every BoR, we asked the Scout to recite the Scout Oath and Law.  When he got to the Scout Law, he dropped one of the things that "a Scout is."  We laughed and figured he just had a brain fart, but asked him to do it again.  The next time, he forgot a totally different word.  Getting a little concerned, we asked him to do it AGAIN ... and he messed it up AGAIN.  The fourth time, he finally got it right.  Now, bear in mind that this was not a kid that had any kind of learning disability that we were aware of.  If this hadn't been for an Eagle Palm, I probably would have had a talk with the SM and suggested that the Scout bone up on the basics, then come back and do it again.

So, I ask you --- what would it take for you to "fail" a Scout after a BoR?

9 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Well wait a minute, there is a lot of agreement around here. But there is also a lot of experience and experiences here too. I happen to believe that this is one of the best forums of like minded scouters because our opinions are expression of life's experiences, not illusions of our egos. We ran the ego guy off about a year ago. 

We aren't trying to change your mind (at least I'm not), we are just passing along information to consider. Or not.

Someone once posted, "I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only only make them think"- Socrates. Oh wait! That was me. LOL

Barry

 

Fair enough!  I need to remind myself that what seems obvious to me isn't always the case in other troops and other people's Scouting experiences.

14 minutes ago, qwazse said:

... we would all say? ...  When that happens, I'll go to another forum!

Yeah.  I'm new, and I'm now learning that there isn't much agreement around here.  That's not a bad thing so long as it's respectful.  

24 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

What do you have against partials?

Barry

I don't have anything against partials, but in this instance it just doesn't make sense to me.  I think if the Scout walks away with a partial and won't actually complete the merit badge for more than a year (which could easily happen with Camping) then they should just wait to take the merit badge.  In this example, they could take a more enjoyable merit badge in their first summer camp and then take camping later, when they at least have the camping nights.

Edited to clarify: There are some badges where partials will just happen, and there's no pressure to even finish them if they're not Eagle-required.  My son has a couple of those, and may never finish them.  My issue is with this particular instance -- taking Camping Merit Badge in a Scout's first summer camp.  I think it would make a LOT more sense to wait on that one.

3 minutes ago, Jackdaws said:

He was given First Aid (ok no biggie), Orienteering and Camping.   Orienteering is IMO not a 1st year scout MB.  And to my knowledge, none of the 9B options were offered at camp for the camping MB so I am not sure if it was worth it.

Whatever we all disagree about, I think we would all say that it's monumentally stupid to take Camping at your first summer camp.  The Scout won't have the camping nights, and won't have any of the 9B requirements.  What you're left with is a partial that probably won't be finished for a year or more.  There's no point in bothering with this one until the Scout at least has the camping nights.  Once he has the camping nights, he'll likely have knocked out one or more of the 9B requirements as well, and can focus on figuring out ways to get the rest.

7 hours ago, qwazse said:

I was just talking to a scout in our Jambo troop (and his SM dad), and reminded him "No pressure, but there is something really cool about being able to wear that Eagle patch during last (or in your son's case, last two) summer camp.

Very good point and I imagine it's oh so true.  My son got another piece of advice from a parent in our troop, which many around here may not like: "Congrats on finishing your Eagle project so young -- now you have a few years to just relax, have fun, and not worry about which merit badges you're taking."  I agree with it, but I'm sure some here would say that's what he should have been doing all along. 

48 minutes ago, mrkstvns said:

Well, there you go.

As long as it meets the needs of the scout and is fun for him, his choices were the right ones.

There is never a "one size fits all" camp schedule that will work for every scout in the unit.

THIS is the truth, and the most important thing about summer camp.  My son is missing his first summer camp this year since bridging, but it's because he's in Philmont on a two-week trek right now.  As soon as he returns, he's going to go about getting his Eagle Board of Review scheduled.  I asked him a few weeks ago if he planned to keep going to summer camp, and he said he did.  He really enjoys it.  He's only 15 right now, so he has plenty of time.  He's talked about joining the staff of our local camp as well.

The more I read the opinions in this thread (and thanks for them, by the way) the more I realize that my son HAD to do it a little differently than some Scouts.  Since he missed a lot of meetings in the spring and fall due to travel soccer, he needed to make up those badges somewhere.  He has never missed a winter camp or summer camp, but did miss a majority of the merit badge weekends that the troop attended.  So, it behooved him to sprinkle in some non-fun badges at camp.  Thankfully, it never seemed to bother him, and he always enjoyed camp.

1 minute ago, mrkstvns said:

Kind of unfair when you think about it.  The SPL works hard, attends the vast bulk of troop events, is constantly "on point", and he ends up getting the same amount of credit towards his next rank as the scout who was "Historian", never attended a single campout, and has rarely been seen in uniform at a meeting.

We were having a discussion on the sidelines of a troop meeting recently about who *should* be an SPL or even ASPL, and who shouldn't.  I think those positions should be exclusively (if not by rule) Scouts who have attained Life rank and are at least 14 years old.  Our most recent outgoing SPL in our troop was a minor disaster.  He just now turned 14 at the end of his time as SPL, and is very immature for his age.  He got the position because no one was available to run against him.  None of the adults were happy about the situation, but couldn't do anything about it.  The SM basically had to hold his hand for six months.  The new SPL, who my son will be backing up as ASPL, might or might not be better.  We don't know yet.  Right now, and even worse so a year ago, we just didn't have enough "older" Scouts to lead the troop.  This is what we have right now:

• We have two rising high school seniors.  One was SPL a year or two ago, and it didn't work out well.  He's just too goofy to be taken seriously.  The only one has his Eagle and is a good kid, but is only interested in going on campouts and not leading.
• We only have one rising high school junior in the troop.  He's an exceptional scout and earned his Eagle very early, but has held the SPL position multiple times already and wants to act instead as sort of an elder adviser ... sort of a JASM without the rank.  
• We have a handful of rising high school sophomores, but only two of them are active.  One has been SPL and is a very good Scout, but he doesn't really have a commanding presence.  The other one is my son, who until recently was tied up by soccer for portions of the year.
• We have a good number of rising freshmen, but maybe one of them in my view is mature enough for SPL right now.  He was actually SPL last year and did a good job.  A different Scout from this age group is the one who is about to take over as SPL, and I'm a bit nervous about it.

The people in the discussion I mentioned earlier, which included our one high school junior, were thrilled to hear my son is finally able to step up to run for a higher position, because we were in desperate need of another older Scout who could take over.  He can also help out the new SPL, who may or may not be able to handle the job.  By the time my son rises to and finishes his time as SPL, the problem should be fixing itself because the age group behind him will be another year older and more mature. 

On 7/1/2019 at 11:15 PM, ParkMan said:

I think the same of leadership roles.  If a Scout signs up to be a patrol leader and then misses campouts, I think it's fine for the Scoutmaster to challenge a bit.  Hey Bob, you ran for PL, were elected, but miss half the camping trips - why?  Same of the ASPL who is failing in his role because he's afriad to lead.  Shouldn't the  Scoutmaster challenge the Scout to make his own decisions?  Sometimes conversations like these are uncomfortable.  Sometimes the Scouts even get mad. But, if done correctly they can challenge the Scout.

This is why, for good or bad, my son never ran for SPL or ASPL until recently, despite being in the troop for four years, being a Life Scout for two years, and being fairly respected by his peers.  Because of his soccer schedule, he would vanish for several months in the fall and several more in the spring and it just wouldn't have worked.  He did hold leadership positions back before the troop really followed the patrol method.  He did those jobs as well as he could, although some of them were really just titles, unfortunately.  

My son's schedule opened up a bit when he joined a new soccer club a year ago, and he has now decided to "self-relegate" from competitive travel soccer, and just play rec level and school ball instead.  Neither of those conflict with Scouts all that much.  He's been a strong patrol leader for the last year, and since he  knows that he'll be around more, he ran for ASPL last month.  In our troop, as I mentioned, that means he'll be ASPL for the second six months of this year, and SPL in the first six months of next year.  

I mentioned all of this to say that my son has been wise with the leadership roles he chose, not biting off more than he can chew given his schedule.  Despite this, our SM once raised his voice at my son when he learned he couldn't come on a hike because of a soccer tournament, saying that he had to skip soccer.  Thankfully I was there, shot the SM a look, and explained that it was an important tournament that my son couldn't miss.

57 minutes ago, TMSM said:

I have yet to see good results from a 1st year scout program and they seem to teach the same things we do in our weekly program. We highly encourage scouts to take Swimming and FA their first year and the other 2 or 3 is based on interest. This allows them to complete requirements in 2nd and 1st class. Advancment is one of the methods and it should be encouraged but not dictated.  

This is exactly how I feel.  Our young Scouts don't do the 1st year program at summer camp because the older Scouts teach that stuff during weekly meetings.  Swimming is a no-brainer because without it you can't do a lot of the fun stuff at the waterfront.  I really think First Aid is right behind it for me.  That leaves a lot of wiggle room for fun electives that first year.

12 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I no longer recommend Cooking summer camp it will be a partial. They need to do cooking at home in addition to at camp. Plus it is a waste of food if you are not eating it.

I was just looking at the requirements for Cooking.  Did they recently add the below line?  I don't remember it when my son took the merit badge.  I'm pretty sure they definitely doubled up, using these merit badge requirements for advancement.  Given this statement, I retract my suggestion of Cooking as a good first year merit badge, unless the Scout has some interest in cooking in general.

The meals prepared for Cooking merit badge requirements 4, 5, and 6 will count only toward fulfilling those requirements and will not count toward rank advancement or other merit badges. Meals prepared for rank advancement or other merit badges may not count toward the Cooking merit badge. You must not repeat any menus for meals actually prepared or cooked in requirements 4, 5, and 6.

2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

But if you are adamant on Eagle required MBs, First Aid and Swimming are the ones I recommend.

I'd add Cooking in to that list, but I agree with you.  I'd never suggest that a Scout take one of the Citizenship merit badges at his first summer camp.  That's just cruel.  Although, it's funny (or not) but I just found a string of emails from 2015 when I was sending my son's list of merit badges to our advancement chair.  His list was:

3 minutes ago, wdfa89 said:

Please please please avoid the citizenships or other classroom oriented badges--or those w/ a bunch of prereqs or (if accomplished correctly) have multi-week logs to keep so they are guaranteed to be a partial.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, at least for a Scout's first summer camp.  I can't think of a better way to bore a Scout right out of the program than to take the citizenships in his first year.  My son did take one or more of them at camp later, however, because he wasn't able to attend the various MB days throughout the year due to sports.  Summer camp was really the best place for him to take them.

I was talking recently to the parent of a brand new Scout in our troop, and asked what merit badges his son is taking at summer camp in a couple of weeks.  He said he'd had a discussion with our SM, and was told that the Scout should choose anything he wanted, just have fun this first year, and worry about advancement later.  When he listed off the badges this Scout was taking, I had to clamp down on my tongue.  They were all "elective" badges, with not one that will help with the Scout's advancement.

When my son went to his first summer camp (which was four years ago this week, by the way) it was suggested that he take swimming, cooking, or first aid (or all of the above) plus whatever else he wanted.  It was a good mix of required badges and fun badges.  The reasoning behind this was twofold.  First, a number of requirements for Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class are found in those merit badges.  Second, they're Eagle-required badges that he would need eventually anyhow.  I would add that these merit badges teach necessary skills that every Scout should have.

Do you think this new Scout parent was given bad advice, or am I focused too much on advancement?  While I get that there shouldn't be a rush to advance, I think stagnation is just as bad if not worse.  I don't think it's good for a boy to remain at the Scout rank for a year.

Just now, fred8033 said:

The difference is that sports will bench you if you can't make the previous X number of practices.  Sports also hold competitions for who can make the team.  

I've almost never seen a scout denied a campout or activity because they could not make a meeting.  Scouting is to use positive encouragement, not negative restrictions.

This is correct.  The issue I've had in our troop with the current SM is that at times he'll stop just barely short of berating kids (he's done it to my son and others) if they can't come to a Scout activity.  That's the exact opposite way of handling things.  If a Scout doesn't come to activities, they shouldn't be made to feel bad about it.  The only thing that should be done is to let the kid know that they won't get as much out of the experience if they're not there.  My son has missed a lot of Scouting activities, but he's stayed more active than some other kids in his troop, and worked hard to continue advancing.  He is going to be the first from his bridging group to earn Eagle.  Plus, the fact that he's just been elected to ASPL means he wants to use his experience to give back to the younger Scouts.

5 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Changing expectations mid-stream is hard.  And, so yes, that adds a new stress to the process that is largely unfair. 

Imagineif your son had only been able to play rec. soccer - no high school or travel team soccer.  After a few years he's pretty good, but the challenge lessens.  Would he still have been as invested in it as he has with more competition?  My daughter is in both Girl Scouts & Ballet.  Girl Scouts hasn't really progressed challenge wise for her.  Ballet continues to get harder and harder.  The expectations on her as a dancer increase every year.  It's not unusualy for her to be at the dance studio 5 days a week.  She has no expectations of being a professional ballerina and so does this purely for the love of dance.  She's losing desire to be a Girl Scout.  Continues to focus on Ballet.

I get the line of thought that we need to be increasingly flexible to keep youth in Scouting.  But, I wonder if part of the answer of how to increase participation is to acutally increase the challenge and expectations on Scouts.  i.e., don't turn anyone away, but challenge those who emerge as leaders and take on responsibilty to get more involved and grow.  Sort of like a higher level coach might.  In return, the personal growth a Scout goes through would also presumably he higher.  More challenges to overcome, more leadership development to go through, etc...

These are all excellent points, but nothing will convince me that this has to be an either/or situation.  A lot of kids aren't getting into Scouting because schedules for travel sports are insane.  There are ways to manage the situation.  My son was told that if he went to as many meetings as possible, and always went to winter and summer camp, that he would get a lot out of Scouting.  That's exactly what's happened.  Yes, he disappeared for swaths of time in the fall and spring, but he stayed involved as often as possible during those sports seasons, skipped an occasional practice to go to Scouts, and even missed an occasional game for a bigger Scouting event like conclave.  It can be done, and my son is proof.

20 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I think most everyone would agree that this is an unrealistic expectation to have for the Scouts in the program.

However, I wonder if it really is that much different from expectations for participation in high school sports or travel level sports.  If you're a Scoutmaster trying to build a really strong program, should you encourage Scouts to be more engaged and have a deeper committment?

To further the analogy.  You've got casual athletes and you've got really committed athletes.  There are different kinds of teams for different levels of engagement.  Should Scouting work the same way?

Not sure I know the answer to this one - just thought it was an interesting concept to discuss.

I see your point and it makes a certain amount of sense, but...

1) On competitive high-end sports teams, the expectation is set from day one that you can't miss many practices or games, or else you simply won't play.  Is that how we want to run Scouting?

2) In this day of declining membership in Scouting, it seems to me that it's a bad tactic to tell tell kids that if they're involved in travel sports they are somehow lesser Scouts.  A lot of them will simply quit Scouting.  You know with most kids, sports will win that battle over time.  The better tactic, in my eyes, is to let the kid know that they'll get more out of Scouting if they're at more meetings, and to work with them to learn how to budget their time between the two activities.  My son managed to do it, so I know it can be done.

Edited to add: There actually was a time right around First Class that my son started talking about quitting Scouts because he had a hard time going to meetings during the spring and fall, plus soccer tournament weekends were always the same long weekends when the troop went on fun camping trips.  I told him quitting wasn't really an option right now, and reminded him that during winter and summer he went to nearly every meeting, and hadn't missed a summer or winter camp yet.  Yes, he missed some merit badge weekends and some other outings, but as a family we worked with him to strike a balance because he wanted to do both activities.  I know he's really glad that he didn't quit, particularly now that he's backing away from super-competitive soccer a bit and can devote more time to Scouting.

7 minutes ago, Rock Doc said:

The process is outlined here: https://troopleader.scouting.org/assistant-senior-patrol-leader/  Electing an ASPL prevents the SPL from selecting his choice of assistant. 

We're clearly not doing it by the book.  I'm a Committee Member and didn't have a hand in choosing how we do it, but personally I don't like seeing an appointed ASPL.  Invariably the SPL elects his best bud, which can reduce the number of Scouts who have an opportunity for leadership.

There are a lot of differences from troop to troop on how things are done, and even from council to council.  Don't get me started on how our council handles Eagle letters of recommendation.

6 minutes ago, Rock Doc said:

The ASPL is not an elected position, the SPL appoints the ASPL with guidance from the SM

Perhaps that's how it works in your troop.  That's not how it works in ours.  In our troop, the ASPL is elected, serves for six months, and then becomes the SPL.  At that time, an election is held for a new ASPL.  

Side note: My son beat the SM's son in the ASPL election, which brought me far more joy than it should have 😀

Thanks for all of the opinions, particularly those who tried to answer my question.  The new SM is a decent person who is trying to do things right, at least in his own eyes.  Shortly after taking over as SM, he began (and eventually completed) his Woodbadge.  He's basically all-in on Scouting, which I can respect.  His son is one of those kids that I call a "Super Scout," which basically means that Scouting is his only extra-curricular activity.  He never misses a merit badge weekend, campout, or training opportunity, and he has a ton of merit badges as a result.  One of the biggest problems I have with this SM is that he expects all of the boys to be like his son.  Not every kid's Scouting path is like that.  For some, Scouting is one of several activities that he loves.  I'm glad my son is getting his Eagle, but he was also just elected ASPL, so the pressure will continue for him to be at every outing and meeting.  That shouldn't be as big of a problem as it used to be, since he's backing away from the super-competitive travel soccer he's been doing for years.  I have noticed that the SM has been chummier with him since he's been coming to nearly every meeting this year, which isn't the way it should be. 

This is the first thread I've created, although I have been lurking for a while.  I wanted to discuss differences in Scoutmaster leadership styles, and what people think is best. 

My son has been in one Scout troop, but it's really been two vastly different experiences.  There was a change in Scoutmasters a year or two ago, when my son was a Star scout.  Up until then, the atmosphere when it came to requirements was somewhat loosey-goosey.  It was an adult-led troop with extremely laid back leadership.  You would think that would lead to Scouts not advancing quickly, but it was the exact opposite because things got signed off and sometimes Scouts didn't *really* master the skill.   On the flip-side, the boys seemed like they were enjoying themselves and weren't all expected to be "Super Scouts."

When the new leadership came in, things were locked down considerably.  The patrol method was instituted, and Scouts holding leadership positions are forced to actually do what their position says they should be doing. That's all good, but the new Scoutmaster is a major hard-ass and many of the kids (including my son) aren't too fond of him as a result.  As an example, the Scoutmaster has been pretty tough on my son at times because my son also played competitive travel soccer for the last five years and thus missed some Scouting events because of soccer tournaments.  My son, who is pretty easygoing, has actually said to me, "I'm done with him."  My concern is that while Scouts will probably learn more, there will probably also be more dropouts because the unspoken expectation is that Scouting is supposed to be their entire life.

My son will have his Board of Review for Eagle as soon as it can be scheduled -- probably in a few weeks.  He just turned 15 about 10 days ago and his interest in continuing Scouting is stronger than it's ever been because he's looking forward to "giving back" to the younger Scouts.  I'm glad, for experience sake, that he's seen both sides of the coin in his troop.  A happy medium between the two would have been best, but that's not always how life works.

So ... I ask all of you assembled ... which is the better type of Scoutmaster, if you had to choose between these two? 

11 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

@SteveMM welcome to scouter.com

Thank you!  I've been lurking for a long time

I know there are extenuating circumstances that we're not aware of, and this is going to sound much harsher than I mean for it to, but I can't imagine many situations where someone was awarded Eagle and doesn't remember it.