dfg890
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Posts posted by dfg890
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5 minutes ago, Eagledad said:
I have a question: Your basically claiming that girls and boy are the same. There is one scout leader on this forum who is claiming her girls mop up the boys in their activities. How do you take that?
Barry
I dont really like that language honestly. I'd refer to them as scouts. If they performed better and "mopped up" I'd say we could try and be courteous and kind about it. Sore winning is just as undesirable as sore losing, un my opinion.
And I dont want it to be said that I'm claiming sameness. I'm not. What I am saying is that the differences get overblown and that using a one size fits all approach might not work. Using averages and data can only get us so far, though I doubt enough data currently exists to draw conclusions from the inclusion of females in scouts yet.
When the airforce first designed cockpits, they took ten measurements of 4000 pilots. The idea would be to create a cockpit towards the average. The result was disastrous. When a statistician tried to find if any one individual was within 30 percent of the average for all ten dimensions, he found that not a single pilot met those criteria. They introduced adjustable seats.
And that's the real point. We all are different. Our communities, our spiritual practices, and we all can live in harmony here.l, free to run packs and troops within feasible guidelines based upon what works , using intellectual humility to reevaluate as we go.
Lastly, in all of this discussion, I'd like to hear how exactly one thinks the scout program should be implemented differently. I for one teach my daughters knits the exact same way I teach my son. I want to know what the practical implementation would look like if it is different? Because last I checked the requirements are the same across the board. A boy webelos and girl Webelos have to complete the same duty to god requirement. The standards for the swimming merit badge haven't changed last I checked (but maybe they have , since I'm honestly more focused on Cubs right now)
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What I said was that society wide conclusions cannot be drawn from personal experience. It's a logical fallacy. If I were to say that my grandmother smoked four packs a day her whole life and lived to 92, therefore smoking leads to a long life, I would be committing a logical fallacy.
It's an absurd example but it gets the point across. In my experience, my girls are far more creative and my boy likes to make lists and organize things, but I've met creative men and women in my life too. I think taking a small population and generalizing to experiences from people from disparate backgrounds and cultural upbringings is risky. Which is why I think maximum flexibility should be allowed so units can be run in the manner that best fits their local values and kids.
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5 minutes ago, Eagledad said:
I have three grandkids under the age of 3 now. My daughter said the other day that she now sees that even at a few months age, girls are different than boys.
Experience behooves making changes to find maximum performance. Logic dictates doing what works. My experience over the years is the same as Terasec's.
Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but instinct drives consistent human behavior.
Barry
And I have 2 girls and a boy, and while I'm not saying differences don't exist, I'm arguing that in the context of cub scouts different ages have significantly larger differences and that the differences are minimal enough given the activities the scouts are participating in that having them together just works better for our pack. My middle daughter is into math and rock climbing and loves to draw. My oldest is a fervent reader and fan of riding her bike and swimming, and my boy loves to play minecraft(as do the girls), toss frisbees, and perform impromptu karaoke shows.
My expeience differs from yours. I see them all different, but not necessarily because of their gender. I think a lot of the 'differences' are culturally reinforced on an unconscious level through exposure to media and the biases of the adults around them. The more I work to remove those biases, the more they are just individuals.
To reiterate, I don't mean to suggest no differences exist. They do. I only say that depending on a packs circumstance, co-ed dens may make more sense. Not always, but that's why I think it should be a choice. I don't think that's an unreasonable position to have.
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5 minutes ago, SSF said:
I don't know if I'm more surprised by this comment you made or the fact that others actually support your position on this. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by either.
You've said that you believe its acceptable for judges to award competitors and determine order of finish (1st, 2nd, 3rd place etc.) irregardless of a patrol's actual performance.
If the rules for this camporee did clearly state that's how judging was going to be conducted then you are technically correct and the girls did not cheat and the adults running the event were within their right to just give out awards to whoever they wanted to for no real valid reasons at all, but if that is the case then this camporee was a complete sham. I feel sorry for the boys, leaders and units that were duped by the organizers and planners of this "competition" who probably had a rightful expectation that all competitors would be judged fairly, evenly and without bias.
Buy you believe that biases whether, conscious or unconscious, are acceptable...okay, got it. I will very much keep that in mind when a girl boy scout contacts me to work on a merit badge.
I think the point he was trying to make is that biases are very hard to be aware of sometimes, and can have deep cultural origins that people just honestly don't put a lot of thought in. I don't think that makes it right, but take for example our cub games. The combined girl den received a presidential award at the cub games. Did they earn it? Well, there was one lion, one wolf, one bear and one webelos. Each of them are scored slightly differently because lions aren't expected to know the law exactly, for example. On uniforms, they were all 100 %, and other than one of the older scouts forgetting the outdoor code, they did very well. But I'll never know for certain no bias was introduced, and I fear others may think there was even when there may not have been.
We need to do better to ensure they are all on equal footing.
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1 hour ago, Terasec said:
disagree
BSA programming is based on age and gender appropriate activities
mixing dens whether by age or sex, contradicts the basis of the programming
whats best for the kids is instructing them based on individual sex and age,
I have taught both male and female from toddlers to teens, to be effective they each require a different teaching method, what works for boys doesn't work for girls, and vice/versa
boys require a more hands on experience, more trial by error, with guidance
girls require more instruction verbal and visually
Disagree wholeheartedly. Some girls tend to be more visual learners, some boys tend to be more tactile. Most people tend to have multiple preferences for different learning styles. The continued belief that one gender prefers certain learning styles is not born out by recent studies. And if your experience differs remember that even with years of experience in a certain field, you can't draw broad society wide conclusions on that.
My daughters love to learn by touching and through kinesthetic styles. My son loves learning things with videos and touching stuff and reading. Most of the percieved preferences come from cultural influences over generations. When we stop viewing girls and boys as different and start treating them the same, they end up being more alike than we all were taught to believe.
I won't say there are no differences, but I would argue that the differences make little difference in the realm of scouting. Scouting is a very hands on activity and some boys will struggle with that, as will some girls. I still suck at knots, after all. Age is a far more differentiating factor then gender (especially in cub scouts), and there is no reason that cub boys and girls can't participate together. In fact, they often do, every day, in their schools. If you'd like some further reading on the topic of the myth of learning styles:
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33 minutes ago, Liz said:
My daughter is already sad about not being able to do the same thing when she eventually crosses over - she doesn’t want to do separate Troops. But reality is that due to parent temperament I don’t think either of our boys is going to join Scouts BSA anyway - I’ll be surprised if they stick around for Webelos. The kids all love it but the parents are busy with other things so we’ll see. The girls are the ones whose parents make sure they show up pretty consistently to activities.
I fear the same for my oldest who will cross over next year. I don't know what girl troops exist, and I believe we are going to keep fight to allow our pack's partner troop to become co-ed.(seperate patrols perhaps, or what have you). I think a lot of the camporee issues will be mitigated by having co-ed units. As for shenanigans, I was a scout and participated in plenty of shenanigans growing up. I'm not sure who didn't. I think following YPT and such would mitigate that, though no one can really control what scouts do on their free time, and lets be honest, a girl troop and a boy troop wouldn't mitigate that much at a large jamboree, but there are tons of adults around, so I think those fears would be overblown.
It's a tricky thing, and there are bound to be growing pains. At least it seems that camporees aren't too often. I can count on one hand the number I went to as a scout, but maybe some go to way more. I went to philmont, I went to camp, it was fun and we had a blast. Certainly didn't care much about scoring when I was a scout. Liz, I think we should work to find other packs like ours because I know there is strength in numbers. I'm hoping to attend the national meeting (or at least a rep from our pack) armed with literature and our experiences so that we can perhaps reach some people who can affect change.
I agree that separating camporees would be a logistical nightmare. I'm likely on next years committee for our cub games, and I'll do my darnedest to advocate for fairness, though much of the scoring was arbitrary and controlled by the Scouts running the event, with the adults providing logistical support. Hopefully we can instill in them the need for equal treatment.
Look, this doesn't need to be hard. 95% of my packs activities go off without a hitch with our On-paper separate dens. The only time it comes up is at these multi-pack events where the district is there to force the rules. There would have been zero drama at our cubgames if our girls had of been left to be scored with the rest of the cubs at their level. Heck, if we didn't check a box on a form indicating their gender, you wouldn't be able to tell if they were even girls when they're in uniform. And that's the point. They don't notice, they don't care and the boys in their dens view them the same. If we separated them, it would foster division instead of unity. It would create way more animosity, and it's clear that's happening on a more national level. Co ed dens are the easiest solution. It might not work for all, but it sure as hell needs to be the official stance.
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2 hours ago, awanatech said:
It's too bad that as Scouters, some pretend to go by the rules (on paper), when in reality, so many dance around the rules that are set in place. And then we wonder why our youth take it upon themselves to decide which rules to follow and which ones are ok to just pretend that we follow. Either we have co-ed dens, or we don't. If co-ed Dens are what BSA wants, then why do we have to whisper it? If co-ed Dens are not what BSA wants, then why do we pretend to follow the rules, on paper, but really openly go against it?
Look, I get what your saying, but the fact is that putting a single webelos girl in a den with a lion and tiger would be a poor experience for that girl. Honestly all of the kids are blind to these higher level pack structure discussions anyhow. They do their requirements and don't give much of a second thought to who they do it with. Other then one cub at the beginning of the year who said 'cub scouts is for boys only!' at the first meeting (he was a tiger, and was quickly corrected) the girls in are pack have been part of the family.
Also, rote following of the rules can be troublesome too. I, personally, want to instill in my kids the ability to value justice and the values set forth in scouts and if there are rules that go contrary to those or to other values, then sometimes those rules need to be broken. Without civil disobedience our country wouldn't exist. It wasn't exactly legal to throw tea in boston harbor, or to engage in armed rebellion against England. It wasn't legal for rosa parks to not give up her seat on a bus, or for MLK, jr. to do a lot of what he did.
We whisper it, because at the end of the day, we want the kids to learn and have a good time. It only becomes any sort of issue at district level or regional events where the girls would not be allowed to participate with the rest of their 'den', and that's perhaps once a year. Either way, I hope the official guidance is soon changed.
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6 hours ago, cocomax said:
I am suspicious the key3 are on board with this new way of scoring events at camporees.
I don't know... maybe. I don't think it would have been an issue if our girls had of simply been able to participate with the boys of their rank at ours. I know our bears were hurt by not having the girl they meet with with them. She's the rockstar scout at that level, and honestly is the leader by the way she scouts. As for the key 3 ... well I don't have much faith in them. I reached out to one of them about the whole coed den thing (Ellie Morrison) and this was the reply I got :
"It has been determined that separate gender dens are in the best interest of the kids. There are gender differences in terms of preferences even when they are in the same den. Girls are going to want yogurt parfaits because they are pretty while the boys want watermelon for its seed spitting opportunity, if you get my drift."
Suffice it to say, this made me rather livid. My daughters could care less about parfaits, they'd be spitting watermelon seeds with everyone else... And besides, all scouts have different interests and backgrounds. The program is the same for everyone. Same requirements, Same expectations. It should be judged the same, not to somehow coddle the girls out of some misguided sexist viewpoint that they need special treatment. Kids have a keen sense of fairness, and can kind of tell when others are getting treated differently. In given the girls accolades they might not have earned, it does them just as much of a disservice as it does the boys. I honestly don't care if packs want to have segregated dens, but I think the option needs to exist for co-ed ones. Separate is inherently unequal. The venturing program in scouts has been co-ed for 50 years.
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6 minutes ago, FireStone said:
I'd protest it. I know that's easy to say in the Internet and less so IRL, but it just seems like this needs to be reined in. Marginalizing boys just to pump up girls for Scouts BSA is wrong.
I'm a Cub leader and I try to imagine this stuff at the Pack level. Could there be a Pack that gives a girl the top trophy in the Pinewood Derby even though her car ran slower than boys' cars? Geez, it's hard to believe, but after reading stuff like this about what Troops are doing, it's entirely possible.
I'm a den leader. My daughter won the pinewood derby this year. No one blinked because, well, her car was the fastest, and that's how it goes sometimes. She was surprised, tbh, and I was of course proud. I think, especially with the cubs, we have to move away from making gender a highlighted thing in general. Scouts are scouts. We judge them on their performance at events like cub games or jamborees. We are guided by the oath and law, and our training as leaders.
That said, I've often though coed dens might help this, and of course it should be up to each pack. But in our case, a combined group of girls serving as a single den stands out a lot more than a mix of girls and boys in dens, and it would lessen feelings of a boy vs girl mentality at events like this. There are plenty of practical reasons a change like this might be useful (after all, venturing scout troops have been co-ed for a long time). As long as the YPT policies are followed with female and male leaders two deep, I don't see why this couldn't become more common. Some troops might not want to do that, and that's fine. Let's make it a choice.
I think there will be hiccups along the way. It's incumbent upon the leaders to try and do better. We all need to do our best to avoid marginalizing the boys (intentionally or not) and we need to avoid marginalizing the girls too, especially if we want to retain scouts. It will take a little time to get over these growing pains. But I think in the end, scouting will be much richer for it. After all, throughout life, our kids will have to learn to work with people from all backgrounds and the more they get to do this in scouts, the more they can hopefully respect others.
And I definitely don't want the girls to be given special treatment. My daughter bombed her outdoor code, and I wonder if she was penalized as much as a boy would have been. I didn't see all the score sheets, but I wonder. And I don't want them to wonder if their awards aren't real. It may come from a well-intentioned place, but either you know your oaths and law, or you don't. On the flip side, there were cubs chanting 'boys are stronger than girls' at the campfire, and we can't have that either. We need to be unified in the scouting family.
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9 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:
*whispers*
Co-Ed Dens are the norm in the field.
This I understand. It hasn't been an issue other than at things like the cubgames where the skit that our girl den practiced with the boy den wasn't going to be scored, they essentially upended our structure and placed all the girls in a single den to be scored that way. It was a mess, and confused the scouts. I'm aiming to be on the planning committee for next year, now, but I think we need to make that less of a thing we need to be whispering about and let it get adopted as national policy.
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I really think the national guidance should just be amended to allows co-ed dens if a particular pack wants that. If the pack wants to segregate still, then let them. I think that's the best compromise that will allow everyone to work in the way that fits their local pack's needs. For our pack we have one girl at every level, and kind of have dens of one that meet jointly with their group. Sure, we could form a combined tiger-webelos den of the girls, but the difference in age (1st to 5th grade) is a way bigger difference then gender is at their age. I struggle to wrap my head around why they wanted to segregate anyhow, I certainly haven't heard a good reason for it yet.
Just got 1 girl
in Cub Scouts
Posted
Look, I'm certain we come from widely different points of view and personal experiences. I think it's a great time for growth in scouting. I think that in order to expand we need to have flexible options for families. I see no reason, even if we concede that the ideal should be separate dens or troops or patrols or what have you, to have options for those who that doesn't mesh with. After all, we have the lone scout program. No one would argue that is the ideal way to go through scouting, but it's there because there may be times it's the only way for the scout to participate.
That's really the crux of it. Even if we concede that an ideal exists and it is separation of the scouts on the basis of gender, then still we should allow other options, because that may mean the difference between participating and not participating at all for some. I'll leave it at that because I think we've talked this to death and while I enjoy a spirited debate and thank you for thoughtful input which I'll consider, I do have much to go do. I hope trying to see things from my perspective has helped you in some way, as reading your thoughts has helped me. I will certainly endeavor to be less argumentative, its a flaw I'll probably never fully overcome.