TMSM

A few will learn by reading the book, some by listening to others but 90% learn by peeing on the electric fence themselves - Will Rodgers

Point is its better for scouts to learn by doing - start by doing then correct what is wrong. Boys like to do - not listen.

We use older scouts to teach for 10 minutes tops, then we play a game to re-enforce how it works

28 minutes ago, oldisnewagain1 said:

I wonder if round tables have outlived their purpose with the advent of instant information on the Internet

Depends on what you think the purpose was/is of round tables. As a servant leader I go to serve the scouts better, learn what I can ask questions and bring back new ideas. 3 years ago I was a bumbling new SM who was thrown into the position during a period of heavy drama. I went to all the round tables and asked questions regarding my circumstances - I was amazed and humbled by how many scouters were willing to go the extra mile to help me. 

Our troop went from12 uninvolved scouts to 40+ enthusiastic scouts that want to do/try every thing. Much of the changes that occured because of the help the round table gave me to create a framework for success. With that framework the scouts have built a great program and it seems to get better every week.

Yes, its the first page I turn to when I do a scout master conference.Its not mandatory but its good for them to do so. 

Thats a tough one. It doesn't sound like swim team would qualify unless he joined to get in shape for an upcoming mile swim.

#5 states under the auspices and includes the 25 hours from #4 so I would assume 4 would have to be under the auspices also. 

On 4/10/2018 at 7:55 PM, ItsBrian said:

My mom has recently been approved as a MBC and I suggested she take the MBC training on my.scouting. When I was helping her get it set up, I realized that you could skip through the whole thing right to the quiz and "pass" the course within minutes.

Is this a bug or does the BSA simply not mind?

It must have been a temporary bug - I tried to skip around on MBC but could not. Although on YPT I was able to take the test without covering any of the material and it did mark me as trained. 

On 4/13/2018 at 3:21 PM, Scoutmaster Teddy said:

I get grief from parents also. Their "beef" comes from canceling and rescheduling campouts because I have 7 ASMs for 18 Scouts and I'm often the only adult who registers. I end up begging for their help or reaching out to retired Scoutmasters and current committee members. I need ASMs who can camp. I understand people are busy, but some of them resist anything after 5 pm Friday.

I am not sure why someone would want to be an ASM but not want to camp. ASMs should assist the needs of the SM and you outdoor chair should be making sure you have enough adults on each campout.

Depends on where you are camping but earning the Paul Bunyan award is fun. Find a dead tree 6-8 inch diameter, tie a heavy rope 20 feet up to help guide where the tree will fall. Each scout gets 3 swings each turn (help guide where to chop and what angle etc). When the tree falls they use hatchets to de-limb, then they use the saw to cut the tree into 4 foot lengths then they drag it out and have a bonfire.

Our PLC does a no-mess kit meal weekend every year. Scouts come up with different meal ideas on how to not use pot, plate or bowl. Usually only a spoon needs top be cleaned - example is eating oatmeal right out of the envelope it came in.

If you don't know where you are going all roads lead there.

I think its better when the SPL can choose who will assist him so I would not recommend an ASPL election. We follow the guidelines of having the SPL choose ASPL with consent of the SM. I think it takes 6 months for most SPLs to get the hang of it but we do a 6th month term so more scouts can have a chance to be SPL.

53 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Been there - done that, a couple times. The assistant presenter of our Scoutmaster Specific class, who was also a SM, called me once to whine about their new ASM that was asked to leave our troop a month before. She was asked to leave his troop two months later. She quit scouts completely after a 3rd troop asked her to leave.

Teams and leadership are hard. The job of the leader is to inspire the team toward a vision. That concept is not  hard when everyone agrees with the vision. But like TMSM's  example, the team leader is also the gatekeeper of the vision. If a member of the team doesn't agree with the vision, then something has to change.

I used to be the district coach for units with adults that weren't working well as a team. In 90% of the cases, the leader either didn't have a vision, or was too weak to keep the team focused on the vision. And it is amazing how quickly most of these adults come together when they understand and agree on a vision.

Barry 

I think you've nailed it Barry. My other 3 ASMs share and contribute to the vision. The potential ASM had his own vision and would often share this with potential new parents (he wanted to grow the troop to 90 and have 10 ASMs). He wanted me to send a printed note home to every parent each month detailing the requirements we would be working on - he was upset when I told him I had no idea what requirements the scouts where working and that it if the parents wanted to know it would be a good topic at dinner time. 

He was also very upset at how much influence I had within the the troop - in reality he hated that the Scouts owned the program and that I supported whatever (within reason) they wanted. Because the scouts decide everything he started to realize he would never have control nless he bullied his way, which he did one too many times.

10 minutes ago, blw2 said:

Personally, I think the OP's model is spot on!

   Thanks blw2 - I am the OP. I am a big fan of Clarke Green. 

I did try to recruit a new ASM but asked him to wait a year, He had taken the SM training while he was a Den leader and had skills. I thought he would be great to take over as SM but in the first month he screamed at me in front of the Scouts for not letting him decide which patrol his first year sons would be in.  A few times he jumped in front of the SPL and forced the troop to listen to how much he knew about the subject on hand. A few more times on the phone or in front of adults he went off on me and finally I asked why would he want to assist me if he thought I was horrible at SM and I saw no way he could do and ASM role because there is not much to do.

He left and went to another Troop and at the next Round Table their CC got up and talked about a troop(ours) that would'nt let a trained leader be an ASM - good luck with that

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

Depends on the troop.

I prefer that ASM have no roles, but rather are available at different times to coach a variety of activities.

The SM and one other dad are aces with guns. I'm all about land navigation (comes from getting lost a lot) and aquatics. Others are good mechanics. As boys get to know us and become leaders they learn who to call on to set up an activity. This may include, at times, helping a QM manage an influx of gear, but not being an uber-QM.

I have found that without stating specific roles we (SM & ASMs) were all tripping over each other do the same things. Better to pick an owner and the rest of us can back off and also know that task will get done.

10 hours ago, qwazse said:

It really depends on your flexibility. 40 boys = 5 patrols. If there was a weekend where each patrol wanted to overnight in a different location, you would need two adult chaperons for each. 2 x 5 =10 adult leaders. Ten ASMs gives you that level of flexibility all the time. If you have dads who complete training (including IOLS) that's half that equation. The other half is the first word on the patch. If they are actually assisting you instead of running their own little fiefdom, it's great. If not, they need to find their own CO and start their own troop.

Or ... if they really want a job, have them team up with a mom or two recruit some sisters and girlfriends and start a BSA4G troop next year.

Thats a good point - Patrol outings need an adult leader. I have been suggesting to the SPL and PLC that they should consider a patrol outing or a Patrol campout. I do not know of any troops in our area that do patrol campouts dut to the cost of camp sites in our area - midwest. 

Thanks for the info and encouragement. I take no credit for the how well the troop works. All I did was provide a framework, back off some adults (some out of the troop) and went low key as much as possible. Without the scouts stepping up and taking on roles and being accountable we would not have a good program. 

In 2016 we had 20 scouts at Summer camp and only 3 adults - it was a great time. I felt like I did nothing but sit around. In 2017 we had 28 scouts and 12 adults - It was mostly a fuster cluck of adults trying to do everything and nothing at the same time. 

Scouts seem to be happy based on BORs. We have a 90% retention rate of first year scouts and I have 4 scouts older than 15 and they are starting to want have thier own space and have different responsibilities. I have bumped a few adults out of doing things that the scouts could do and may have ruffled feathers but I trust the older scouts to get stuff done. We have around 25 of the 40 scouts camp per month and have 32 out of 40 going to summer camp. Its taken 3 years to get here but the Troop is mostly where I think t should be. Are focus is now on being even more Patrol focused and perhaps do some Patrol campouts.

I get it that some dads want to be a more visable part of the troop but I don't think adding ASMs fixes anything. I have done a great job at becoming less visable and working with my SPL to be a great leader. Sometimes dads see no leader and they jump in and start taking control so one of my biggest roles in Spring is getting in front of them. 

I was told by a scouter from another district that I should have as many ASMs as I can and to give them each a job and that my role as SM is to manage each of these ASMs. His eaxmple - ASM of Tenderfoot requirements, ASM of Wood tools, ASM of Cooking, ASM of Life rank etc.. He got pretty upset with me for saying 2 is enough for some troops. Am I screwing over dads that just want the title? 

As SM I have limited the number of ASMs to allow the scouts to own and be responsible for most of the program. The scouts do all planning, do all of the testing and signing of requirments in the books, plan and carry out COH. As SM i do leadership training, sit in on PLC, provide a scoutmaster minute each week and do SM conferences. We have 40 scouts and what I think is a good scout run program. 

I currently have 3 ASMs. 1 is the adult QM (he assists the QM and pays for things with a credit card), 1 older scouts ASM (he is Eagle coordinator too) and 1 ASM that can do anything I can do. I have a good committee supporting me and good standing within our district. I also have 12 parents that are MBCs and have all Eagle MBs covered.

I have been taking grief (mainly from new parents) that I need more ASMs. The 4 other troops in our area have 10 -12 ASMs for troops of 30-40. I get it that dads want to be part of scouting but most just want Webelos 3 so I make them wait a year to make sure  they get how Boys Scouts work. Am I off here? Do I need more? What do 10 ASMs do that helps the Scouts maintain responsibility?

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

CC is not active except for BORs. The one committee meeting we had was actually run by an ASM (Gunship) and I was there. It involved assigning duties to parents, and determining what fundraisers to do. Also explaining for the umpteenth time how Boy Scouts is different from Cub Scouts to the new parents. Only time you see the committee is for BORs otherwise.

I agree, having everyone on the same page would help. And regular meetings are key to that. But several folks do not want to run the troop by committee. As noted above, there is resistance to having monthly PLC meetings at the Scout level.

Wow thats not a good way for a troop to run. The SM should have the ability to provide the program he seems fit to have but he should discribe to the  committee what the program is, what the goals are and what outcomes to look for. Type As are great to have as part of the troop but without a set set of goals or philosophy to stick to it becomes difficult to determine how well the troop is being run or whether or not to stay in the troop.

As SM I too spend much of my time explaining to new parents how boyscouts is different (Umpteenth +1) and I had a new parent say he was going to punch me in the nose next time I said we were boy led and to take a seat. I too have taken over committee meetings but I have backed off of that when I realized everyone should have a voice. Its sometimes difficult to be reponsible for the troop but be expected to let the scouts run the show. I was blessed with not being a former Boy Scout and spent hundreds of hours studying how to do it right. I don't think you have that in Gunship.

It seems you have limited options and no power to make any changes for this troop. Is the CC ready to step down? You should offer to take his place and run monthly meetings. I see this is the only way to help your cause unless you had solid support of 5 or 6 other committee members.

I did have a parent who wanted me to change everything, told me I sucked at this or that after a year of this I asked him to find another troop. My point being if you are unhappy and don't see things changes on the horizon you should find a happier place. You won't change Gunship by talking about him on these boards and you will drive him crazy by constant questioning.

Eagle94 - Do you attend committee meetings? As an SM I provide a monthly updates as to how well the scouts are doing at leading themselves, the challenges and failures they have had. I will also provide a self assesment on the times I have had to grab the wheel to prevent injury (rarely) or disaster ( a few times a year) and provide examples where parents helped a bit too much.

I also end my SM portion of the committee meeting with a statement that we are all here to make sure we put on a good program for scouting and I ask for questions and comments on how we can be more scout led, and take a back seat to more each month. 

Would your committee be open to this type of discussion - maybe it would be good to discuss this as a group to better understand what direction everyone wants to go.

Cyclone - How do you plan to support the Troop. Some of the issues like the number of campouts, meetings or summer camp may just need more volunteers to help pull the trailer, organize summer camp (payments, forms, drivers) or additional ASMs. A couple of new supportive parents can go a long way to improve a program. As a parent you should ask some questions regarding size of committee and what their current needs are. 

Our SPL makes final announcements , we do a scout master minute then retire the flags

I have read quite a few reviews on line but no good proof this help with water proofing down. Not unproven either so its worth a shot to try.

On 3/22/2018 at 6:53 AM, Chisos said:

Anyone have experience with the Nikwax treatment on a down sleeping bag?  I'm thinking about getting down bag, but concerned with the "what if it gets wet" problem.  (I know the solution is "don't let it get wet" but I'm thinking along the lines of Be Prepared...)

Any thoughts pro/con?  For anyone who's used it how well does it work?  Can you see a difference in how a bag performs/feels/etc. before and after treatment?

Were you refering to Nikwax Down Proof? or just Down Wash. The Down Proof adds water resitance to the down itself

Nikwax Down Proof™ has been specifically designed and optimised for down filled gear. It adds Durable Water Repellency (DWR), which protects against rain and condensation, improving the natural insulating properties of down.
 
Nikwax Down Proof™ prolongs the effective life of your down gear. It leaves a flexible water repellent treatment on individual down filaments and fabric fibres allowing moisture vapour to pass through, maintaining breathability and optimising performance in cold and damp conditions.

Nikwax Down Proof™ is a safe, easy to use product for down filled gear. It is quick to apply in a washing machine and ensures that the treatment goes right through the item, treating both the outer fabric and the down fill. The DWR of Nikwax Down Proof™ develops on air drying. However, tumble drying is recommended to ensure that the down is dried thoroughly and as quickly as possible. Leaving down wet or damp can ruin it completely.

I have been sleeping in a hammock for 6 years now in scouting and we have a few scouts interested in it. I have also taught Hammocking at Scouting University so send me a message if you are interested in a slide deck I created. Here is a Safety sheet and a PDF 

680-055_SafetyHammocks_WEB.pdf

hammck camping.pdf