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clivusmultrum

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Posts posted by clivusmultrum

  1. On 7/15/2022 at 9:10 AM, FireStone said:

    .

    Paint and feathers are not just part of native american culture. They are part of many cultures. It's in how they are used that makes them specific to a tribe, a region, a culture, etc. I'm pretty sure people of aztec or asian tribal heritage would be pretty annoyed to find that we regard the use of feathers to be exclusively Native American.

     

    This sort of illustrates the problem.  The gaps in our knowledge become apparent. The idea that if good intentions are present that cultural gaffs are forgivable will only get you so far. Aztecs for instance are Native Americans. Their language has common ancestry with Utes, Shoshone, Comanche….  We are not in a position to make assertions. This specific lack of knowledge points at why we are not served well by continuing these practices.

    ‘Frankly I find it just as "odd and out of the mainstream" to suggest that something as commonplace as feathers is the exclusive domain of one specific group of people.’

    The idea that because other peoples might have used feathers in some context doesn’t exempt you of  repercussions  when it super clear that your intentions are to mimic a cultural group or groups.  Is this a thing we need to perpetuate?

  2. 21 hours ago, Eagledad said:

    Hmm, maybe, but I struggle when I hear adults using scouts to justify adult opinions. I have never heard a scout complain about regalia of any type, in fact it was the more the merrier

    Maybe a difference of time and location. The words I overheard the Scouts using to describe the tap out ceremony were “cringy” and “messed up”. That’s their lingo but I knew what they were seeing. Our Troop has produced only one OA candidate in three years and he politely declined. Some of these kids have a refinement of sensibility beyond my own. But, I can learn. 

    Here is a personal analogy. I have hearing aids. Hearing aids now have some crazy attributes from recent technological advancements. For instance my hearing aids prioritize available sounds. Don’t ask me how to explain the programming but they will prioritize the sound of a human voice over a mechanically reproduced voice. When I was first getting used to them it was almost impossible for me to watch TV because it would basically mute the TV in favor of a human voice. A kid could say something from across the house and it drowned out the TV a few feet away. For years, before the hearing aids, I was doing it the other way around. I concentrated on the distracting thing I wanted to listen to rather than the human voices that I really needed to listen to. I think my real deafness has been sort of cultural. I know some of the Scouts out there see know problem with the regalia. But I think its time for circumspection.

     When I said there were no local First Nations people to ask in my area it was not an attempt at humor. My ancestors pushed them off their land. When treaties were made the next administration broke them. I know the OA trappings are meant in fun but I have come to adopt my kids view on this one.

     

     

    • Upvote 1
  3. On 7/8/2022 at 11:57 AM, HashTagScouts said:

    There is no official Call-out ceremony script produced by the OA. That is Lodge specific if it is being done. Not all Lodges do call-out at summer camp- honestly, it is not at all the majority that do. The "unit election" period is also set by the individual Lodge. I've seen quite a few Lodges outside of the Northeast that run their Lodge on a calendar year basis (new officers start in January, elections occur January-March, induction weekends in April and fall). 

    As to regalia, each Lodge is supposed to get approval from the Native American tribes in the Council locality, and if they don't approve, the Lodge is supposed to cease using regalia. There was never an official pack-to-troop crossover script, but after years of complaints, the OA had to step in and create one (the text of which has absolutely nothing to do with OA or Native Americans) for National. Regalia cannot be worn by OA members participating in those. I'm an Associate Lodge Adviser, and I can tell you we get complaints every year from parents who were in attendance at Blue & Gold ceremonies where a crossover is done that involves regalia and Native American themes (put on by the pack/troop, so doesn't involve us), so it is not at all just Native Americans who are not thrilled by the appropriation. I'm also in part Native American, so I can speak on behalf of myself and say honoring is great, but involves obtaining knowledge, much of which you aren't going to pick up by osmosis. I welcome folks to get to really understand NA cultures, but learning about one tribe in PA doesn't really translate to knowing anything about a tribe in CA. And, there is really the rub for the OA. If we went to "keep it entirely local", then all of the current tradition and ceremony of the OA doesn't hold up unless you are local to the Lenni Lenape.  

    As to regalia, each Lodge is supposed to get approval from the Native American tribes in the Council locality, and if they don't approve, the Lodge is supposed to cease using regalia.

    I am pretty sure that the Native American tribes in my area that were not eradicated were relocated to Oklahoma. Having no one to ask?

  4. We are just back from Merit Badge Camp. My son took Kayaking, Canoe, Chemistry and Camping Merit badges. He helped some of his buddies with Wilderness Survival which has been one of his past favorites. He has awesome stories about everything but chemistry.  He will glad he has it on his sash I bet. He will be taking a chemistry class in the next couple of years in high school. The other stuff will not be taught in his school.

    Of course STEM is important. For a lot these kids its not what draws them in and holds them. He will be telling stories about recovering a swamped canoe when he’s a grown man. 

  5. For all the good the organization has done in fostering my interest in First Nations it baffles me that they can’t come up with an approach that honors their contribution and incorporates their interests. I suppose we could ask. Maybe we are afraid of receiving a Cease and Desist.

  6. 27 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

    As in "impassable" to get to Point, or didn't want to send vehicles to Ponil?  Do you know which?

    Interesting comment.  As most packs aren't waterproof, the pack material will absorb water adding weight.

     

    I always took a portable sun shower.  2.4 oz, if I remember.  About 2 adult showers.  Took a shower every day.

    In any event, one always remembers the tough campouts moreso than the cake walk campouts.

    +1 for Pack liners. Pack covers aren’t really waterproof either. They never weigh less. Even if you have a pack that will soak up water, it will dry. Myriad places for leaks. Covers Prevent access to outer stashes you may need at rain or shine. The Liner always works. If for no other reason, to segregate possible spills in the pack from things you don’t want to put at risk. It need not be expensive. Mine is a construction site 3mil trash bag. It is bigger than my pack. I roll down the top portion like a drybag.  There are lighter options out there that are real champs.

    Before I worked as a pack salesman for a beloved three letter acronym gear company, I through hiked the rainy AT. I used a pack liner and never had a reason to cuss it. I suppose someone used a Pack cover and had good results. Observer effect, I guess I only noticed the people with them flapping. As a gear salesman I offered them. If they didn’t want one I would share my thoughts on liners.

  7. 15 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

    As in "impassable" to get to Point, or didn't want to send vehicles to Ponil?  Do you know which?

    Interesting comment.  As most packs aren't waterproof, the pack material will absorb water adding weight.

     

    I always took a portable sun shower.  2.4 oz, if I remember.  About 2 adult showers.  Took a shower every day.

    In any event, one always remembers the tough campouts moreso than the cake walk campouts.

     

  8. I am just back from my third summer camp as an adult. I was a Scout in the 1970’s.  So I am constantly trying to reconcile memory with current observation. The first summer camp that I participated in as an adult we had one Scout called out for OA. I believe that was the last OA election the Troop had. The fellow that was chosen declined the honor.

    . The next years no elections.  I watched our Scouts during the OA ceremony at summer camp and I was pretty sure there would be no interest in OA nominations going forward. Dutifully eavesdropping after the ceremony this year, I heard a couple of Scouts call the proceedings “cringy”. The crazy script, 1950’s western movie delivery with the mismatched costuming, I totally understand why these kids found it off putting. It seems more Mardi Gras than honor society.

    We have a number of adults serving in our troop who were in OA as youth. Our most recent SM is in OA. My father was in OA as an adult. None of us are discouraging participation but kids are different than when I was a kid. They aren’t buying this package. We aren’t pressing. Maybe it is time to reevaluate the presentation.

     

    • Upvote 3
  9. I think STEM is overrated. There are STEM this-that-or- the-other in their schools. I’m watching the kids glaze over at all the extra homework activities that go with a lot of the merit badge work. It feels like we are just hooking on to a hot topic while neglecting our core appeal. Let’s go hike, get the canoes in the water, figure out the difference between a cotton mouth water moccasin and a plain bellied water snake- set up some tents- we’ll be back Sunday afternoon with some great stories.

    Yes you need to overhaul your leadership model. What’s the point of having this inbred model if they are not going to lean in on your real strengths? If they are reckoning their success is calculated in fund raising instead of Scouts being fielded, they are off the path.  

    • Upvote 2
  10. Huh? I’m not sure if I read you on this one Fred. I was specifically calling attention to ONE person that called out a group, in this case atheists (who are not actually a group) about language describing them as inherently unethical. That described a bigoted comment.  

    You may have conflated that with my answer to Quazse was about having the comment misunderstood to assume I am unfamiliar with the concept of being in a perpetual state of penance.  Hence failed ideal.

    If I did not word this in a way that you could unravel I certainly apologize. The guys who seemed to have been in on the discussion apparently had read the previous posts.

     

  11. (There is nothing intrinsic to Christian principles that suggests its members are incapable of falsehood. In fact the opposite is true ... they are in a perpetual state of penance for a variety of sins, or they aren't Cristian.)

     

    Thanks Quazse. I was raised with the concept of sin, repent cycle. My comment really didn't have anything to do with the Christian’s failed ideal. It was more about calling out the idea that atheists are liars because they have a different value system.   I see the statement as an unnecessary display of bigotry.

    I see some fairly nuanced thinking in our Troop. Their fundamental assumptions span a range. For some I think recitation of the Oath is something of a mantra. Are they lying? I think for some it might be like professing a belief in Santa Claus to spare a believer’s feelings. For others I think they superimpose a more accessible concept.

    The thread about changes to the relationships with COs does circle back into this. We are chartered by a Lutheran church. We have no members of our Troop that are members of the congregation. We turn out for Scout Sunday but that is our only contact. I think even the COR has little contact with the congregation. The parishioners are aging and their numbers declining.  That is what put me on to this thread.

  12.  

    Quote

          From InquisitiveScouter                     “They are not welcomed currently”

     At our unit level I can tell you that none are excluded for religion or lack. I can also say there is a disinterest in  what the Natl. Org. Is up to.   The young people in our unit came from one of two or three different Cup Packs.  I’m pretty sure that not a one of them has read any such thing. The Troop recharters, dues are collected and they keep on Scouting.

    I think Scouts BSA will eventually land on the right note. It might be a few decades after everybody else. I was talking to some of our guys about what it is to be reverent and it quickly jumped over religious views and went to the reverence of old growth forests, sacred places where we honor those that have gone before, reverence in art museums….

  13. On 3/23/2022 at 4:58 PM, GrammaScout said:

    I understand that Troops are allowed very little in 'selective membership'.   Atheists are not allowed to join of course because the Policy is that the Scout must believe in a power higher than himself.  Although they lie and get in anyway.   Of course, if you are an atheist, you operate on different values anyway.  

    I think this assertion about atheists does not serve you or the organization. Scouting encompasses a lot of views. We have medallions in Scouting for religious practices with many gods and with no gods.  Buddhism doesn’t reference a god for instance, but there are awards in Scouting  that recognize them.

    I’ve known lying Christians and honest atheists. I think the kids in my unit are savvy enough to realize that the Scout Oath was written in the very early twentieth century. They take it in the spirit of Oath’s intention.  I don't see evidence that Atheists work on different values. I think they are welcomed and I’ll up my game.

  14. I looked at the new shirt. I was warned that buying my Scout the next size up wouldn’t work because they are running small. His next size option is in the men’s small and it looked like the shirt tail would drag the ground on the guy. Maybe I can locate a copy of the discontinued version for him.   To me its funny, when I was a Scout I loved my uniform. We actual kept ours on for the camping trips. The kids in this troop just hate the uniform. If they designed their own I bet it would look like a soccer uniform.

  15. The singular of Webelos Scout is ... WEBELOS SCOUT!  That's it! Please take the extra half second and get it right! Thank you for indulging my little pet peeve!

     

     

    Did I mention my obnoxious OCD?   :D

     

    Are you sure? I think first person singular would be IBELOS. If you are addressing one of same you call them YOUBELOS.  Where I am writing this you might hear the occasional Y'ALLBELOS in lieu of WEBELOS - regionally accepted.

     

    Glad I could help.

     

    Clivus

    • Haha 1
    • Upvote 1
  16.  I am a den leader, we are just moving into Webelo. Parents are giving me that sideways look at the prospect of paying out for yet another uniform change. I think they are are starting to suspect they've signed on to some sort of pyramid scheme. Each rank has had a different, expensive and not super useful neckerchief, rank specific gimme cap, etc. Cross reference that with your little Cub Scout pressed into selling amazingly expensive popcorn- the organization loses some of the luster.

     

    Okay- I think I see a plan forming.

    The old school neckerchiefs were useful and I think these guys will benefit from having one. Tentatively I have pretty good response from parents and pack leader at the prospect of producing our own. The old guidelines I've come across put the size at over 32" square folded into a triangle. I bet I can find broadcloth that we can make them for a couple of bucks a piece. We'll keep to a simple design. When I was a Scout, our troop adopted neckerchiefs to look like we were serving with John Wayne in a cavalry unit. Seriously. I do not recall anybody complaining about them. As an adult (chronologically anyway) I have continued to use them on hiking and paddling trips.

     

    This has been a fascinating discussion. Thanks for your insights.

    • Upvote 1
  17. How's about these hikers?  I think you can pick them off the Legionnaire's Website.

     

     

    Stosh, I could see you're a character when you rolled out the story about Indian ponies verses city ponies.

     

    Hey- you asked a question about why I wear closed toe shoes when cutting the grass- I'm sure you meant that as a rhetorical but I'll answer anyway. Really it's the same reason I often wear shoes on date night- Superstition.  When I was a kid I saw the immediate aftermath of my father's foot and work oxford encounter with a lawn mower blade. Putting on shoes isn't buying you much. Same deal on date night. On those occasions I'm not in shoes for long enough for it to be too big a bother.

     

    My query, I'll repeat, didn't have anything to do with what I'm recommending to my brave Webelos. That is up to their folks and I pack a good first aid kit for their shortcomings. Most will be wearing the same kicks they wear all the time. I was just checking to make sure that I wasn't violating some mandate if I walked my own walk. I perhaps over explained my position but what the heck.

  18.  

    So looking at their web site

     .....you are suggesting the classic, and not the Cloud or Volv?

     

     

    blw2 the newer ones might be great but I stick with the originals. In fact I recommend you noodle around with this: 

     

     http://www.chacos.com/US/en/mychaco/?sma=sm.0001o9dffv193le67ull6oo1j85aq

     

    Gives some clues to how they're made. If you find they agree with you that site will guide you through the custom made process. The custom sandals and repairs are made in Rockford, Michigan. As I mentioned I've had pairs rebuilt and resoled. I like to keep them going and it's nice wearing a pair that I've already walked off the newness.

  19. a bit of a side track...but not really all that much I suppose

    curious about which type of sandals currently you like to use for trail hiking?

    I've been reading a lot lately about backpacking, and have been gearing back up hoping to do some again.  A long while back I read Andrew Skurka's book about if you pack is light enough trail runners are the way to go...light weight and dry faster

    I tend to wear sandals a lot, and have been reading discussions about flip flops, crocs, and such for use as camp shoes and to a lesser degree for fording streams along the AT and other trails.  Since I wear flip flops in daily life when I can, it really strikes me that a good sandal would be great even for use on perhaps all but the roughest trail sections

    So I'm interested in what you like for backpacking...

     

    blw2, I tried to reply to this earlier but it appears to have not posted-  My go-to sandals are Chaco Z/1s. for everyday wear I use Piper sandals made by Dave Piper and family in San Antonio.

     Chacos have been my mainstays since about ~1996. When selecting I recommend a dense mid sole and a strapping system that will hold you in place. You still have enough movement for your foot to act like a foot. They can be re-strapped and resoled. I have pairs that have undergone restoration several times. The polyurethane midsole doesn't get crushed down like you'd expect from EVA, they are extremely durable.  I get mine resoled with their Vibram Colorado sole. The lugs are almost non existent but they seem grippy enough. You can wear socks with them but wet snow is still pretty annoying. The only times I felt the Chaco wasn't the match for the terrain I actually needed crampons anyway. Chacos are not cheap but they can be found on sale and the good old REI Garage sale will almost always provide a few pairs in good shape.

  20. a bit of a side track...but not really all that much I suppose

    curious about which type of sandals currently you like to use for trail hiking?

    I've been reading a lot lately about backpacking, and have been gearing back up hoping to do some again.  A long while back I read Andrew Skurka's book about if you pack is light enough trail runners are the way to go...light weight and dry faster

    I tend to wear sandals a lot, and have been reading discussions about flip flops, crocs, and such for use as camp shoes and to a lesser degree for fording streams along the AT and other trails.  Since I wear flip flops in daily life when I can, it really strikes me that a good sandal would be great even for use on perhaps all but the roughest trail sections

    So I'm interested in what you like for backpacking...

     

    My everyday sandal is often a pair of Piper Sandals, made by Dave Piper and his family in San Antonio https://pipersandals.com .Though usually for serious hiking I use Chacos. When Alp sandals was bought by Decker I started making my own. That lasted until I tried a pair of Chaco Z/1s. The Chacos have been my go-to since ~1996. I steer away from soft EVA midsoles or anything with strapping that does keep your feet in place on the foot bed.  Soft midsoles tend to deform which puts more strain on muscles and tendons. Chacos have a dense polyurethane midsole that is supportive and doesn't deform. I have a pair that has been resoled and restrapped many times and they're still going strong.  I usually go with the lowest profile sole they are offering (Vibram Colorado). They are plenty grippy and a smidgeon lighter than the deeper lugged models. Socks work well with the Z sandals. Snow can be sort of a drag. It sorta gets packed under the toes between the sandal and the smartwools  :). the only times Ive been on terrain that I thought out matched the Chacos I also needed crampons. 

  21.     My point in examining this thread has more to do with what is an actual rule. When thru-hikers discuss differences of opinion on gear, method, technique , the conversation usually ends with "well, you gotta walk your own walk".  As I am re-entering the BSA I am running into people, BALOO trainers and such, that will state something like it is a hard and fast rule and I find zero to support that written down anywhere. I want to make sure I can walk-my-own-walk without undue conflict. Why not get a pair of Oboz or Merrell's and get by with everybody else? The absolute most candid answer for me is that after 3 decades of using sandals for everything but mowing the yard and date night my feet have come to resemble and work more like a Ruramari or Maasai  or any of those people walking big miles in sandals they've made out of a discarded tire. Feet widen, toes spread apart the skin toughens; If you walk the way your species was originally designed, the binding of shoes will come to hurt. 

       Do I think you should do it my way? Nope, not necessarily. Ive got buddies I enjoy hiking with that wouldn't dream of setting out without a proper pair of mountaineering boots and they're do fine for the most part. Am I much swayed by what I learned getting certified as a boot fitter or the various safety experts? Na, not necessarily. Their vantage is limited in such a way that it excludes the most of the human experience. Porters on the Inca Trail or in Kenya were not surveyed. 

        When my guys are ready to move from sneakers to backpacking kit I will offer up the conventional thought and my own experiences with as little theater as possible. I do want to make sure Im square on the actual rules.

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