cyclops

'M'-word?

Met a troop today on a mountain trail. They were having a great high adventure backpack. Won't mention names, places, or numbers but there were at least 5 adults for about 10 boys. The boys were kicking butt at being 'up' to this trail, too, lol. At least the adults had a sense of humor about it. I mentioned to the boys that there is a McDonald's up the trail a ways and they 'pounced' asking how far? I said, "about 25 miles off trail"..it was beautiful.

Arrrr!

Take a look at the costs of equestrian sports and ownership. Astronomical. Mine were on a swim team and I was totally into that. But we also had (for a short time) the martial arts thing and for a while in HS, the band thing. We dumped martial arts and suffered through band. Somehow we managed to fit scouting into the schedule.

On the other hand, I have a friend who coached Elite Soccer and it required total dedication and was really expensive. That team visited Russia, England, Australia and Costa Rica, playing other elite teams in every location. My friend was completely invested in soccer and required the same from team members. Somehow I wonder if they had time for any fun.

So how we fold the flag doesn't matter.  OK.  You want some negative comments?  Fold the flag into a rectangle, or don't bother folding it at all at your next flag-lowering assembly. 

So this is an opportunity for an experiment to find out. I've rolled it up before with no negative comments (prevents creases) but I haven't tried the rectangle thing. Might be worth a try to find out.

That is why Ruth was in the field that day.  It is very clearly spelled out in the story.  We definitely know the motive.  She was homeless, hungry and needed the grain.

Nonsense. I know the story. What you just stated is a simple uncritical read of what everyone knows is written on some paper. But no one truly knows anything more than the fact that someone wrote that account on some paper. Even if we do accept that she was gleaning the fields (not a real stretch of the imagination), we still don't know all of her motives, nor those of Boaz for that matter. It was kind of nice of him to allow the hungry to grovel in the dirt of his fields for a few scraps of grain.

As for the homeless, your church did try to do the right thing. However, if that was in violation of zoning or some other ordinance, then the law is the law and the neighbors were within their rights to invoke it. I could fault your local government for failing to care for those homeless before and after they stepped in but you didn't give much detail so it's hard to say much beyond that.

MattR, that was back in early summer. Since that time, the local government did two things, they completely removed all of the 'tent cities' under bridges and at the same time placed the homeless in shelters here and there. It is possible that people who go to those churches provide donations to those shelters and I have no idea whether or not, in the months since that time, any of the churches 'adopted' any homeless themselves. The ones near me didn't. The nearest temple is about an hour away so I'm not sure about how they responded. I do know that Rabbi and I know him to be a really decent guy who likely did try to do something to help. I just don't get to hear from him all that often.

In addition, Ruth also might have been trying to catch Boaz's eye, so-to-speak. All we know is that a written account reports that she did something. We can never truly know her motives.

 

It is a reminder to me of the power of a lasting memory.

So much for lasting memory...reminder needed, lol.

All the rest is squabbling.

Why do you think they haven't?

Because I haven't yet seen a religious-based hypothesis that can be tested in an experiment. Perhaps you know of some and if so I'd like to learn more.

Well, that depends on if you think all the chances to run those trials is a grant from the Beneficent or a result of some natural gyre of matter heeding no particular command.

Thermodynamic laws are very particular and place strong limits on what matter and energy can do.

Mankind has always had free-will and for that reason makes choices according to criteria either he/she sets up or those set up by others.  

and then, "the world is not based on self-justification, but on corporate or community based justifications also known as moral codes." 

See if you can use your free will to defy gravity. If successful I'd kind of like a flying carpet or two. But I am particularly surprised to read that you endorse corporations as a source of morality. Astonished, actually.

When I was a kid 50+ years ago, I was appalled when I read about the "sophisticated and culturally advanced" the Romans were, yet if they didn't like their infant child for some reason it was taken out into the woods to die of exposure.

Yes, and today we merely turn our back on families living in hovels under bridges and such as they die quiet anonymous deaths. In a nearby city, it was shown that the entire population of homeless persons could be completely taken off the streets if each church in the community only sponsored a single homeless person. And since that time, there has not been a single such sponsorship. But the churches are looking mighty pretty these days.

Honor among thieves is a moral code based on trial and error.

There is no such honor. It is a myth. Thieves know better than anyone who not to trust....themselves. And for 'self-justification', that could be just as easily applied as your own basis for decisions. All anyone else will ever see is the outcome of your decision and the only thing any of us have to go by more than that is your 'word' regarding your motivations. You could be acting in the true moral manner you claim or you could be acting on the basis of self-justification. No one else can ever know for sure which it is nor would such knowledge change that outcome. It is what it is.

As for a moral code, I don't know.

 

The 10 commandments are fairly solid (sort of) but it's still just a small part of what is moral. There is very little in the Bible that is simple and clear. The characters, even the good ones, have checkered pasts.

 

Rather than moral code I'd call the Bible moral motivation. A code is merely a set of rules and that will be gamed just like a scout gaming the requirements for a merit badge.

You know, I think we're missing a money-making opportunity.

We could, you know, like write a new set of these things and make the claim they are divinely-inspired (RBP, of course) and in time we could develop a cult-like following (BSA?) with true believers who devote large amounts of their time quibbling about the true meaning of it all.

We could call it a new religion and maybe name it something catchy like 'Scientology' or 'Latter Day Saints' and our new book could be called 'The Book of Arnold' or maybe 'The Quran' or 'Handbook for Boys', lol.

In time even government would recognize it as 'establishment' religion and boy, when others were saying, "Praise the Lord (RBP)" we'd really be thinking "Pass the Loot!" LOL, we're missing an opportunity.

I nearly just fell out of my chair laughing when I read your comment, NJCubScouter. Good one!

Not too far from Chattanooga are several TVA campgrounds on the river and there's a commercial cave experience that's quite good (Raccoon Mountain) and they have a campground for tents. If you have time for a guided wild cave experience, it's a lot of fun too.

On the way back, there are state parks around Lake Norman north of Charlotte and there's also King's Mountain State Park and I know they have a designated tent area. It's an interesting geological formation too with Revolutionary War historical significance.

Also, keep away from the Spartanburg, SC area. It's the stuff that nightmares are made of. Keep going until you get to Kings Mountain State Park which isn't much farther along than Spartanburg, right at the state line, and if you want to get past Charlotte, there's Lake Norman State Park north of the town on I-77 and it has tent camping.

In case Atlanta takes too much out of you to make it past Spartanburg, there's Victoria Bryant State Park in Georgia not too far from the SC line. It's a really nice place to camp as well.

And once someone made up these arcane 'rules' they take a life of their own and then people can squabble about their application, lol.

I am a science guy. I'd love to see the everyone apply to religion the kind of critical examination that we apply to those scientific hypotheses.

The idea of 'Disposing' of Bibles brought this memory back:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-10-15-bible-burning_N.htm

Talk about an alternative source of energy, lol.

And I suppose that we should thank the demonstrators in unfriendly countries (and sometimes here in the USA) for 'retiring' the flag in a proper manner by burning it. Pulleeeeze! Burning it is merely recycling it as well, just in a different chemical process. Burying it? Microbes will 'recycle' it. If the thought of putting the flag into the recycling bin is distasteful, then make sure that every flag patch on every scout shirt gets a proper retirement by burning. Add to that all those little plastic staffs for car windows, etc. I have found those flags just lying in the street, covered with grime, being driven over by traffic. Their fate? The trash bin.

As for those who have served in the military, they did not give their service for the sake of a flag but rather for what the flag symbolizes. As with any symbol, doing something to the symbol does nothing to that which it symbolizes - but in some countries it can get you executed, is that what you are advocating, to be like those people?

If people are attempting to be respectful to the flag who are we to question them? 

 

The flag isn't some sacred thing, heck, better than half are made in a Chinese sweatshop. It really is just a piece of cloth, not the Shroud of Turin.

Agreed, but the shroud's just a piece of cloth too. This is the problem we encounter when we attach some intangible value to symbols. In the geological time scale, all of this is just a flutter of a leaf in the breeze. The shame of it is that people often get hurt for the sake of symbols.

Nothing wrong with recycling the materials in the flag instead of burning it.

Over the weekend (9/11 comemoration) I saw some people wearing shorts hand-made from the flag. I was a little surprised to see that but this one is just for BDPT00, found it on Google Earth:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/109640682

I've seen flag retirement many different ways in different ceremonies. The key, to me, is in the term 'respectful'. The flag is being retired. There's no getting around that. There should be many ways to do that in a respectful manner. I don't see why one way should be more or less respectful than another as long as the intent is respect. As for those shorts, I just have to shake my head, but it's nothing compared to that photo. You gotta wonder what goes through their minds. Or maybe we don't want to know that come to think of it.

Long Horn Council? Take a quick glance at your photo. No wonder you like that council.

Mom2a, our pack is in a similar situation but the leaders are merely offering the opportunity to attend the district event. No leader is trying to convince anyone. That gives every family the freedom to choose for themselves, as it should be (and as it actually IS in reality).

AnnF, that is a very useful link, thanks.

Cyclops - this may be a different fight, but it was probably brought on by the policy change in homosexuals..  With some people, they have won a victory so are moving on for the next battle, some see that as co-ed, others as allowing in atheists..  Personally between the two I think we will get co-ed before atheists.. BSA just doubled down on this being a religious organization and beefed up it's advancement requirements in both cub scouts & boy scouts to make sure that religious is more of a main theme.. Some of it troubles me as it allows people who are religious fanatics to discount some peoples religious beliefs if it does not pass their smell test..  I see a lot of arguments coming up over people not understanding what non-sectarian really means.

Well, I'd have no problem with going coed. I'm not sure what the problem is with that either, other than tradition or something. I'll have to read through the other topics to find out the different views and their basis.

As for that "religious organization", excuse me? Religious organization? Which religion?

I see the religious tests in the requirements but they don't seem to specify much and it all seems to be left to local interpretation. I don't see Bernardo Gui coming to visit the unit to enforce some faith mandate. Mostly I see a bunch of bean counters in Irving who just want to see the proper boxes checked on forms in order to keep (who knows who) happy. More nonsense.

Very nice you missed the very recent argument over the inclusion of homosexuals.. We spent years where the argument came up in I&P at least every 6 months or so, and we would reargue the same argument all over again..  With the inclusion of homosexuals, the argument changed a little as those who felt persecuted felt vindicated and vica-versa..

 

You are a new member, but some new members lurk before they jump in.. If you missed the whole thing, do not worry, I am sure it will be brought up again in 6 months.

 

Do we argue about other things? Sure.. This atheist argument is one argument that comes up several times.. CoEd scouting..  Old school vs New school Scouting ( and various things in that sometimes get taken out and argued on their own merits.),  Uniform Policing   on and on.. We do love to bicker..

I just took a look through Issues and Politics. You are correct. Amazing. I'm glad I missed all that...I just don't see why it was ever such a big deal over gay members. We've had them since I was a boy (pretty obvious that a good number of camp staff were gay, same ones every year) and I never thought much about it one way or the other, I thought it was OK with BSA. It was just one of those things and we didn't stick our noses into others' business. Is this what all this 'morality talk' is about?

Maybe not, this discussion seems to be about atheists and the DRP (thanks for pointing out the full wording, this is the first time I've read the entire thing). I'm guessing that the 'bickering' (as you called it) has shifted to a new group.

So atheists are not allowed? News to me. We have atheists in our unit and I've known atheists in scouting for years. What a lot of nonsense...they're as good scouters as I've ever come across and I don't buy for a minute the argument that (now that I've read some of this stuff) atheists can't be "the right kind of citizens". Hogwash.

Why is it that some of us just seem to want to exclude some of the rest of us for no good reason...that we just have to make this stuff up in order to do it?

This one looks interesting.

 

http://www.longhorncouncil.org/

I really like your sense of humor.

Showdown? What showdown? There's been more than one? I've obviously missed something.

I am not sure what this 'inner voice' is that you're talking about (evidently I'm not hearing voices in my head, probably just as well too) unless you're talking about conscience and in that case I disagree. Atheists certainly can be persons of conscience just as much as religious people, at least as far as I have observed. If actions are a indication or measure of morality or conscience, atheists are no worse than religious persons.

And that is a good thing. It is good for individuals to take full personal responsibility for themselves and for their actions.

about the term 'respect',

"..over the years it has taken on other meanings which could imply just about anything nowadays."

I agree. "...could imply just about anything..." is, of course, one of the problems with using the term in a 'law', it allows us to "imply just about anything" from it.

I also agree with David CO, and it follows that if an atheist can be moral, then 'morality' must be capable of being derived independently from religion.