imachristian13

First, Pack is correct.  HIPAA doesn't apply.  There is not violation of the law, so take the high horses back to the barn.

 

Secondly, let's say, hypothetically, that instead of being the Neanderthals we have concluded them to be, the troop leaders here are reasonable Scout volunteers with the best interest of all their Scouts at heart.  Let's further hypothesize that they could be dealing with more issues here than we know.  No matter how thin you make a pancake, it always has two sides.

 

Can no one envision a scenario where it would be a good thing for Scouters of good conscious, dealing with a problem, to share their concerns and experiences with the leaders of the second troop?  Why do we automatically assume the leaders of the first troop are "poisoning the well" for this Scout.  Why do we assume the leaders of the second troop are too obtuse to take information from all sides and form a reasonable understanding of the issues they will be facing?

 

Personally, if I'm the leader of the first troop, I'm going to make the call too.  If I'm the leader of the second troop, if I don't get that call I'm going to call myself.  I've done both.  Let's not forget we are all part of the BSA, not independent, competing entities.  Sharing information between units should be a good thing. 

Thank you for trying to steer back from HIPAA-land. 

We assume that they are doing this outside of good conscience because of past actions. We, further, know that they are doing so because they contacted the Second Troop's Scoutmaster before we even called ourselves to set-up a visitation. They, quite literally, had to call and say (to the effect of) "you might be hearing from one of our troop members named because he might want to come visit you...if he does, he has all kinds of problems."  

It is our role, as the parents, to guide the path of our child. If we go to the second troop and make an inquiry, I would certainly expect that SM to contact the SCOUTMASTER at our present troop for more information. We haven't even decided to leave our present troop yet - we are just weighing options and these folks are contacting other troops to warn them about our son.  

Some folks have been asking (in different words) "why is switching troops being considered?"

These 2 ASMs are the primary leaders of the Troop after the SM. In other words, when he can't be there, it is their show to run. Since they choose to ignore (or, to be fair, give up on) the training that they have had from us, our son finds himself in potentially dangerous situations. These choices typically provoke further escalation of our son's scenarios and, now that he is adult-sized, we don't want to see where that goes.  

Further, our son doesn't feel that he is welcomed by his fellow scouts simply because they have grown tired of dealing with him (as most teen boys would do whether dealing with NT kids or those on the spectrum). In order for him to stay with the current troop, we need to reset everything and that just doesn't appear to be feasible. 

If I had my own druthers, I'd sit down with the SM, other ASMs, and the scouts themselves and say "hey! we are trying to make it that my son can succeed at this. we know it's tough. what can we do to team up and make it work for all of us?" A lot of the kids are good and the ASMs are as well.  Frankly, it's one of the few times in his life that we want folks to treat him like he's different because it's the only way it can work.  

@@Eagledad - Sorry - which person is the "CC" to which you are referring?  Beyond the local troop, I have spoken to the District Executive.  

Right on the HIPAA misspelling.  I do that all the time.

Ironically, the female in this duo is in medicine so HIPAA should be on her brain somewhere.  Whether it is HIPAA-violating or not, I am most frustrated by their decision to contact another troop leader whom we have never even met to, I guess, "warn" her about my son. Even if they have positive intentions - which I doubt but nevertheless - what was their drive behind reaching out on their own like that?  

For the record, just to be 100% clear. My son does do things he shouldn't do. When seen through the light of an NT child (neurotypical), he would be disciplined through reward-based or punitive measures. In his case, however, those methods do not yield results of any sort. These folks have received the majority of our training and have, subsequently, decided that they know better than us.  For example, one thing that just doesn't work for him is to try to "talk him down" or "discuss" an issue while it is occurring. After our most recent incident, the male ASM came to me and said "I just cannot understand why I can't talk him down like the other boys". When I reminded him of what he should have done, he told me that I didn't know what I was talking about.  

I'm starting to sound like I'm just venting - don't want to do that.  

More thoughts are always welcomed.  Thanks!  

Hi folks...sorry I had to step away for a bit. A few comments.

• I suggested to the Troop that I join the ASM ranks for the Troop back in October. When they didn't jump at the opportunity, I submitted my application to the SM anyway and proceeded to take all available training (I am only short the Introduction to Outdoor Skills or whatever it's formal title is - I will take that in October of this year). Despite monthly reminders to submit the paperwork and get me in motion, they only did so last month (April) and I am awaiting confirmation from the Council on my status.  In short, I have been attempting to be an ASM for half a year now.  
• I am clear that it's a fine line on whether they are going past HIPPA whether or not. It's more of a question - to me - of how they contacted her before we even had the chance to make our own contact.
• We try very hard to advocate for our Son while giving him some room to be his own man. (We have had to stand up for him so much over the years, he had asked us to try to stand back on Scouting. He understands that might not be possible now and we're good with it.).  
  
  Thanks everyone for the ongoing discussions.   

 

 

 it would be up to you to decide to share it with a new troop in your own way.. 

MooseTracker hits it dead on here. This is what bothers me. Not like we hide his Asperger's (if anything, we probably share it too much) but it's not their call to make.  

thanks

Have a cup of coffee with the new SM explain the situation with him/her and see if your son might work out in the new troop.  I for one have taken on "problem" scouts and haven't had any problems with them.  Many times when an adult gives a boy a real opportunity to succeed, rarely do they disappoint.  If the new SM is open to this, things should go well.  I've had boys such as yours in my troops and it takes an open-minded SM to make it work. 

 

My question would be, where is the first SM in this whole process that allowed things to go awry in the first place?  If I had 2 ASM's acting like this couple, I would be looking for their replacement rather quickly.

We haven't given up on the possibility of the new Troop - far from it. We aren't going to let two bad eggs spoil things.  

Our current SM is a great guy - and the rest of the ASMs do fairly well with our Son as well.  It's just these two.  They do a lot of things like this - including starting gossip that the current SM was planning to step down last Christmastime...it wasn't even on his radar. We have toyed with trying to stay put and remove or modify the problem ASMs as well - just thought we'd look at an "easier" option.  

No.  Not unless they are sharing something that they saw on your son's medical form.

 

Their personal observations are their observations, and you have no control over them.

 

But why are you assuming that they are spreading bad things?  They might be relating they failures to interact well with your son and encouraging the new SM to work with your boy in a different way.

Thank you for your reply.  The only reason we believe they shared in a negative light - as opposed to the method you describe - is how it was shared with us.  Based on our interactions with them, it would surprise us to find that you are correct.  

As you can probably guess by my moniker and avatar, I come to this from a different perspective.  Having a "word" from God is not craziness for a Believer.  That being said, there is a right way and a wrong way to share such a word. This is clearly the wrong way. Specifically, because the word from God is supposed to be shared only with the person/people for which it is related. 

If the charter of the troop is through a faith-based organization - especially one that includes this woman as a member - please treat it with respect even if it is not your cup of tea. Take it to the leader of the chartering group (presumably, a lay leader or, perhaps, a member of the clergy) and explain the concerns that apply to the "when" and "how" the word was shared. Do not dive in to the other aspects because - no different than someone saying "God Bless You" when you sneeze, she was sharing in good faith.

If, however, the charter of the troop is through a non-faith group, take it directly to the woman in a private meeting (just a few primary Committee members) and - again, be respectful - say that you appreciate that she felt strong enough in her faith to share this with you. However, as someone who doesn't share in this faith, you would prefer not to hear these types of messages in the future. Further, as we are uncertain of the entire faith life of our Scouts, kindly refrain from making statements of this nature in front of them at any time.

Either way, there is no need to remove her from the group on this instance - nor is there any need to threaten her with banishment for next time. If there is a next time, you simply have to remind her of this discussion and - since she has disobeyed the request - ask her to depart.  

Hope you'll consider my advice.  

Bob 

Hi folks.  Here's the scoop.

My 13 y.o. son lives with Asperger's Syndrome. He is high-functioning but can be difficult for those who are inexperienced. My wife and I have worked with our Troop leadership team since we joined Scouting in Fall of 2013 to help them to work with him and to be an overall support. While we have found a good deal of success, there is a husband and wife team who serve as ASMs...they have a 14 y.o. in the Troop as well. They either don't get it or they don't want to get it. When our son is in scenarios under their direct leadership, he has a bad experience. 

After speaking with our District Executive, we had elected to consider a shift to another local Troop. Unfortunately, the husband is also the Commissioner for this other Troop. Still, we were planning a visit to see what we could find out. We shared this decision with our SM and Committee Chair. Earlier today, I was informed that the ASMs from our present Troop contacted the SM of the Troop we planned to visit. Although I have not yet determined all of the details of what they shared, they pained a very poor picture of my son as well as of our family as a whole. While we will be the first to tell you that our son can be challenging, he is most certainly capable of achieving in BSA. Working with a new SM on this scenario is our prerogative - not theirs.    

We are realistic. People make mistakes. They do things because they think they are doing the right thing. We get it. Our son is the loser in all of this so we want to be clear.  

In a nutshell, my questions are these:

1. From a general point of view, the only reason that we can see for sharing information about our son with this new SM was to be spiteful. What are your thoughts?
2. From a "BSA Guidelines" point of view, this sounds like a violation of privacy. They are sharing medical and personal information with the new SM, a person with whom we've never even met at this point, without our expressed permission. Isn't that the case?  

Originally posted by Twocubdad View Post

Our Philmont crew had t-shirts which said, "1. Pain is fear leaving the body. 2. Tears are 98% estrogen. 3. Chicks dig scars."

 

 

I like #2 the best because women are weak and cry a lot and that's a life lesson I want to make sure my son and all my scouts take to heart.

I could not agree with you more...let's make sure that our sons are total pigs so that scouting gets a bad rep.

How do the other Scouts react to these kinds of issues? If they don;t like it' date=' perhaps they should elect a "reform" Senior Patrol Leader.[/quote']

 

 

The tone is very much one of "yeah...we know we suck but it's the best we can do". Two SPLs since we arrived (appropriately so...12 months or so in) and neither want to go above and beyond.

It sounds to me that officially, you're just a Dad. Committee Member is a registered position - there is no unregistered Dad on the Committee position.

 

As for the motto - do the boys realize that they'll be announcing to the world that they think they are stupid?

This is VERY interesting to me. You are saying that all Committee Members are "registered". At my ASM training, we were told that this was 100% inaccurate - all parents are members of the Committee. There is a leadership structure (which these folks don't even come close to following either).

On the motto - some of the boys think it's hilarious and the leaders all think it is just a fantastic concept. Despite having the stupid part pointed out.

 

Don't yank your boy out of the troop!!! Do a mom/dad BOR with him and see what he would like to do. Scouting is his decision! Express your concerns, let him add his input and then give him permission to make the decision as to what he thinks best for him.

 

It just may be that he likes it where he is. That of course does not mean you need to continue. If other troops are out there looking for good leaders wanting to do it right, there's nothing in BSA policy that says you can't register as a leader in one troop and your son in another.

 

If he's unhappy with the troop, then the two of you (at his directive) can seek out a troop that will meet his needs.

 

Stosh

We are definitely following his lead (we do that in everything of this nature). He is the one expressing concerns to us and we are seeking guidance to properly assist him. He does have the ball.

The "hazing" should be reported to your District Executive.

 

Not too long ago, our Troop had an offer to perform an opening flag for a public meeting with a US Senator. I asked our SPL to choose Scouts he believed would best represent the Troop. I would never consider inviting all 30 of our Scouts to participate in something like that, or even to attend an event that only lasted about 10 minutes. I can't speak for your Troop, but one man's "clique" is another's "best Scouts we have."

I am considering reporting to the DE.

As I think I've said elsewhere, when it's not appropriate to bring all of them, I'm cool with that. It's when it IS appropriate and they aren't invited that I take issue.

Thanks!

For your son's part, is he having fun?

 

Specifically "just insane" meetings can mean boys going off and getting into fights. Or, it could mean boys going off to try to accomplish a task, and being boys there's a good bit of herding cats to keep everyone on task.

 

In the first case, your son will not be having fun (unless he's a bully ... but even then probably not). In the second case your son will be laugh about all of the silliness that went on when they were trying to do the task.

 

Same applies to outings, patrol gatherings, etc ...

We let our son take the lead on all of these issues. He is having some fun - enough to worry about staying or going from the troop. It's just that the troop is disorganized which causes some to feel like they are not making progress.

 

Asking of a Scout who is purported to hold the maturity and ability to handle himself as an Eagle Scout if his socks are on the right feet is now considered hazing? This is PRECISELY left-handed smoke shifter stuff. Actually, sending a new kid out looking for a smoke shifter can be hazing. The Eagle Scouts in our troop would have the chutzpah and sense of humor enough to throw it right back at them by telling them he never washes his right socks so he always knows to put the crunchy socks on the right foot. Or something equally silly. Even the introverts would just grin and shake their heads....

 

End of meeting -- Our whole friggin' meeting looks like that. It's called boy led. We call the end of the meeting "circle up" and it can take 10 or 15 minutes, depending on how much business we need to conduct. We invite the parents to join us in the circle, if they choose. We make announcements, present advancement, I give a SM minute an we close with the Scoutmasters' Benediction. But you're right every troop does it differently. If only the last 20 minutes of the meeting is chaotic, call it a win and go home.

 

Yeah, Scouting can be cliquish. Ever been to an Order of the Arrow meeting? Or, heaven forbid, the council training committee? Originally, patrols were to be built around groups of friends. Every few years I get a call from the town wanting a color guard for something or other. These calls usually come on Thursday for a Monday evening gig (the troop meets on Tuesday). I call the SPL and tell him to handle it. Chances are the color guard will be comprised of the SPL and the first three guys who say yes when he asks. This is also called boy led. Blasting an email to the entire troop, setting up some selection process and having a meeting or two is what adults do. Kids are down and dirty, cut to the chase.

 

Our Philmont crew had t-shirts which said, "1. Pain is fear leaving the body. 2. Tears are 98% estrogen. 3. Chicks dig scars." The moms were appalled. The dads smiled and nodded. The boys thought the were the coolest crew on the trail. This is how guys assert themselves, push limits and stretch their wings. Grab a copy of Mad magazine or watch the Three Stooges.

 

I don't see anything in your post I would call detrimental or even much of a violation of policy.. Silly? Immature? Yeah. Personally, I'd like to see a bit more seriousness of purpose in Eagle Boards. But as you say, every troop is different and has it's own personality. If this one isn't your cup of tea, find another.

 

But I'm betting the boys in your troop are having a blast and can't wait to go on the next campout.

Hi,

Although we are not speaking of the Eagle Scout BOR, I think you are overstepping the point of what I am saying. A little bit of fun and levity was not my concern. The overall wasted time and nonsensical nature of the BOR in this format is where I'm disappointed. I just completed the ASM basic training course at our Merit Badge College. They made it painfully clear that BORs are not supposed to be a place where a Scout should fear that they have not earned the rank but, rather, a place where the Troop can check-in with the Scout to see how they are truly progressing while affirming their achievement of the rank.

End of meeting...the 10-15 minutes that you call circle up is currently taking place...FOLLOWED BY the 20 minutes of comments from the entire adult leadership team. Comments on items that have already been (or should have been) covered earlier in the evening.

Never been to an OA meeting or CTC.

I do understand the difference between how adults do it and how boy-led can be done. This doesn't allow for two things, however. One, it denies that there are times that the whole troop has been invited (not just a small piece). Two, it completely rules out anyone with special needs - we have two Autistic boys who prefer "adult" methods when possible.

I would disagree with your Philmont shirts (at least #2 and #3) because I would find them to be disrespectful. However, that is not the point here - this particular "motto" implies stupidity of the boys in the troop. (I subscribed to Mad and watched the Stooges every Saturday by the way - doesn't mean I have to degrade women or boys who cry in order that they might stretch their wings).

Yes...the boys are having a good time. I'd like to see them have a better time!

Unless you have more information than you're putting in your post' date=' I wouldn't worry as much about #2 and #3. I can't say much about #2 without knowing what is actually going on in the meeting. Number 3 could have a lot of innocent explanations. I receive calls on a regular basis asking for scouts to help with a flag ceremony --- more than we can fulfill. Most of the time I'll send a note to the troop because it takes asking a lot of people to get the four or so scouts needed to fulfill the request. But if someone asks for help with a color guard and the first four scouts I happen to ask then that's where I stop, that's not a snub, that's me being as efficient as I can fulfilling the request I receive.[/quote']

 

 

I do understand what you are saying about the efficiency part. I'm speaking of times where it would be appropriate for the full Troop to come - not the quick turnaround opportunities. The Flag Day event - for example - was a full troop invite but only a few were informed.

 

I am very much trying to walk that line between being oversensitive and attentive.

<"1. At Boards of Review (non-Eagle)' date=' the candidate is hazed. The room is set as if it were an interrogation. He is challenged on nonsensical BSA rules (does he have the correct sock on the left or right foot). He is asked questions that do not pertain to his advancement, his views on the troop, or areas he might improve. Finally, a charade is put on where the Scout is asked to leave the room while the Board "discusses" his candidacy - we do no such thing. Then, he returns and is told that "if his book is signed, he has achieved the new rank - if not, he may request another Board in 2-3-4 weeks (whatever the leader makes up on the fly). [Nevermind that ASMs are always present']"

 

I am all for having some fun (Left-Handed Smoke Shifters anyone?) but this is just not what we are supposed to be about.

 

If they are asking more than one nonsensical question I can see this as hazing but asking one of these question maybe someone's way of trying to "lighten things up" I am with Sentinel947 that asking a scouts views of the troop or areas he might improve are questions that should be asked of a Scout.

Any board I have sat on has asked the Scout to leave the room so we could discuss things

How often are they turning down rank advancement? In the almost 20 years I have been a leader (and 3 years as a District Commissioner) I have only heard of a Scout being turned down for advancement 2 or 3 times. If it happening on a regular basis there is an issue.

 

2. Knowing full well that every Troop meeting can be set up in many fashions, ours has no structure and the entire 20 minutes of closing (where the Scoutmaster's "Minute" is supposed to be) is just insane.

 

If a Troop meeting looks like what I like to call "organized chaos" it is most likely boy-lead. To most adults a troop meeting look like they don't have structure but Scouts are learning to do things.

I agree that a Scoutmaster minute is lasting 20 mins is insane. Has anyone discussed this with the SM? - talk with your Unit Commissioner

 

3. Sometimes, no effort is made to communicate with the entire Troop (on Troop wide items of course). Last year, for example, the Troop was invited to assist with the local Flag Day ceremony. The SM and ASM only shared this with 3-4 Scouts who got to experience a nice event. The only way that the other 26 Scouts found out about it was when pictures showed up in the local paper. There's a clique-y attitude in the leadership. [For the record, I'm the type of person who would have been upset if we were invited and later found out that others weren't]

 

I have been in Troops like this. I just quietly looked around and found another Troop as they are never going to change.

It took me over 10 years to finally find a Troop that uses the Patrol Method and is boy-lead.

My "hazing" comment was more about the overall experience. The sock question - if it was solely being used to lighten the boy up - is fine on its own. However, when added into the entire scenario with the false possibility of not earning the rank, that's where I felt it was too much.

I do try very hard to differentiate between my views (as an adult) on how the meeting should be run and what is actually boy-led. There is a difference between having no plan of attack for the meeting at all or for a trip. We have two boys on the Autism Spectrum as well - they crave structure so it is stressful for them to be otherwise.

I have discussed it with the SM and ASMs (the long end to the meeting) - they disagree.

THANKS!

I think the OP is saying he is asked questions that do not pertain to his advancement' date=' [THAT DO NOT PERTAIN TO'] his views on the troop, [AND THAT DO NOT PERTAIN TO] areas he might improve." But maybe I'm the one misreading it.

 

BORs should be only what BORs should be. Read the GTA and if what you're doing is either more or less than that it's a disservice to the scout. This seems not only from these boards but from my own experience one of the weaker areas in the Advancement method of the program. I just looked at Scouting.org and cannot find any specific training for how to conduct them, but they are actually a great opportunity for the kind of e-training that can be done. Have a presenter explain exactly what their format and purpose should be. Explicitly say what they should not be. Have a mock demonstrations of what are good questions and what are bad questions, and then explain what should be done for the scout and for the troop, as a result of the information the committee gets as a result of a good BOR.

 

For the OP, my advice is read the Guide to Advancement (GTA), thoroughly, and then try to start a conversation in the troop and committee about how and why your BORs are conducted compared to the Guide. Don't start out telling people they're doing it wrong, start by asking "I read here that we should be doing this, but it looks like we're doing it this way instead, how come we do it differently?" It is a good bet that most of your committee members have never read the relevant parts of the GTA. It's possible that enough of them, if provided with the right information will be willing to make adjustment, if they can't ask yourself and your son if the troop is where you want to be given the way they operate. I am willing to try to bring change, but I am not going to spend years rolling a stone up hill. If change looks doable, great, if not there are probably people not too far away doing things better and you and your son can take advantage of the program that way.

 

You are correct. The "do not" was continued through the sentence. If they were asking for the boy's views in relationship to advancements, etc., that'd be totally different.

I can see the concepts you describe as a good avenue for moving forward within the troop...if possible.

"He is asked questions that do not pertain to his advancement, his views on the troop, or areas he might improve."

 

Those sort of questions are valid questions for a BOR. Unless the members of the board are trying to get the Scout to say something bad. A BOR is not all about advancement, but based on your statement I quoted, I don't agree with your assessment that those topics are out of line. Certain questions may be, but not those topics.

 

Otherwise, yes, your troop is out of line. Bring up your issues to the Scoutmaster and CC and if that doesn't fix the problem, you can go to the Charter Organization Rep, or either put up with it or find a new Troop. I wish there was another way but there really isn't.

 

Best of luck to you and your Scout!

 

Sentinel947

I don't believe that the BOR members are trying to get the boys to say bad things. The questions are more off the wall than I am implying I guess but we are on the same general page.

Scoutmaster and I have met on several occasions with and without the CC. I'm clear that this is not really something that can be "changed" and that is why I came here for advice.

thank you so much!

Time to search for another Troop or start your own.

Starting our own would be cool BUT I think we'll lean toward another Troop. thanks!

What is your position within this Troop?

Funny you should ask.

I requested consideration as an ASM and/or Named Committee Member in November of last year. Since then, I have completed all of the ASM training except for the basic outdoor skills course (taking that in March). Troop leadership told me they were going to wait to process me until after re-chartering. I have asked multiple times for my status since that was completed, to no avail. ("We're working on it...we'll let you know".)

So...officially, I'm "just" a Dad on the Committee

1. There's no hazing allowed in Scouting. Period. Also, ASMs aren't supposed to sit on any board of review. We've discussed many times that the SM conference(s) should prepare the Scout for the board of review so that unpleasant surprises don't come to pass.

 

2. Not sure what to tell you here. The SPL at my meetings tends to close at around 5 minutes before the scheduled end of the meeting. Then, when all announcements are done he asks me if I'd like to give a SM minute. What exactly goes on during the 20 minutes of your meetings?

 

3. Cliques aren't appreciated in Scouting, though it happens more often that we'd like. If there is something to be announced, I let my SPL know so that he can announce it to the entire Troop. If something is last minute, though, I can see where some might not get the announcement in time...

 

As for the motto it's crude, in my opinion. Why not stick with B-P's motto: "Be Prepared"?

 

Maybe shop around for another unit?

 

LeCastor

Thank you for your reply!

1. I agree in full.

2. SPL does nothing other than gather the boys for the closing - the adults take over at that point.

3. SPL is one of the folks that facilitates the clique concept (only texts his buddies on some things).

Motto - My thoughts as well. Funny for an "inside joke" but not to publicize.

Considering the shopping...thanks1

It would seem that you're not tough enough. If it were me, I'd be looking for a new troop. To make any waves in a troop like this is totally pointless. Hopefully there is another troop nearby that actually does Scouting. This troop is nothing but an adult club that let's their pet scouts hang around.

 

Stosh

I have been holding back on this because I am trying not to always be the one in front (I do a lot of volunteering and I'm always "that guy"). We have other troops to consider. Just making sure before we yank our son elsewhere.

Thank you!