imachristian13

@@JoeBob - I'm actually well past the hurt in this. I will ask you what I asked @@HICO_Eagle. What would you do differently in the "approach"? 

I have no doubt imachristian13's son will be better off in another unit and I hope they've been able to find the right unit for him.  On the other hand, all of her posts convey (to me) a strong sense of "they (the troop) will change to accommodate my son" even when she says they agreed (at her insistence) to guidelines or rules about how or when to give up.  I have no doubt she was trying to be reasonable but as was pointed out earlier, they had no obligation to accommodate her or him.

 

@@HICO_Eagle - 

While I do thank you for your comment and sharing your message on your scenarios with your Autistic Scouts, I do want to comment on an aspect of your commentary that is far off the mark.  

Tell me how you would have done this differently. 

• Our Son was invited to visit the Troop by his own friend who was involved and whose father is a family friend as well as an ASM and a Commissioner.
• After the initial visit and before committing to joining, we sat down (my wife and I) with the Committee, SM and most of the ASM team (including the two ASMs we've been discussing all along).
• At this meeting, they asked us how we could make this happen. We didn't "insist" on anything. We worked with these folks to develop a plan that was to their liking. That plan included our being onsite at all times unless they allowed us to do otherwise - usually on camping trips when we could not attend due to work or on local trips where we would be within a phone call's reach so that he could have some autonomous time. Again, items that they instituted. Meanwhile, I have been finishing my training as an ASM - something that has been rewarding but challenging since I did not excel at Boy Scouts during my own youth.  
• There was never an "obligation" to accommodate our son or the two of us. No request to the Troop for a change in action or a shift in activities - heck, we didn't even seek a change in physical fitness areas until they suggested it to us.  The only obligation should have been that they live up to their own commitment to the plan that they set into motion.  

On the issue of whether or not the ASMs should have gone to another SM, there is a huge difference between sharing concerns in the manner you described and how these folks behaved. We would have had no issue with them sharing those types of things whatsoever, especially since we bring those types of things to the table ourselves when we meet folks who may be supervising our son in our absence.

So...what would you have done differently and why shouldn't we have expected them to live up to the plans that they agreed to?  

Your point is well taken with one critical exception.

Saying that "this is more than I can handle" would have been fantastic! Even though they had agreed to take on our son, they always had the out - it was written in the Committee minutes that way at MY insistence so that everyone was clear. All they had to do was say "can't do it anymore...now what?"

Instead, they took all of the negative steps that have been discussed all along.

We are moving ahead. They have chosen to continue to be inappropriate in their actions BUT that's OK...we are all about moving ahead.

Well, yes, that happens. But, somehow between two people who weren't the SM, this became grounds for expulsion FROM THE DISTRICT?

 

The parents are perplexed.

 

The SM should be infuriated. But, he is a man of few words. Maybe in the long run that's a good thing.

It actually only became grounds for the 2 ASMs to raise a negative tone toward our family - not expulsion from the District. 

SM is worn out - can't serve the other boys if he has no ASMs anymore.  That's what would happen if he spoke up we believe.  

If the unit accepted the scout and wanted to get trained on how to manage him, then obviously most everyone involved was willing to try.

 

I think where things fell down, given what little we know, is perhaps the expectations of how autonomous the scout was going to be were perhaps too high.

What little we know? What don't you know?  

The expectations of his autonomy were actually too low.  

That's just it Qwazse, your unit is willing to make the effort. You are under no obligation to do so no matter how much "training" the parents provide.

To reiterate - we did not demand this obligation - we asked for their commitment and they agreed that they were willing to make the effort.  And, as an aside, enough with the quotes on our training them, OK? When you are fully trained in how to do something, describing it as such is fully proper.  

You keep typing you are going to "train" the leadership of these troops to deal with your son. Did you ever think they don't want to be trained? They have no obligation to be trained, your family is the one who needs to make the big adjustment. You're doing more harm than good by forcing your son into these situations. Your son has special needs like a lot of children; he and his needs are your responsibilty. You cannot force others to make accomodations, or attend to his needs because you want to let him spread his wings, and cry foul when they don't practice the "training" you gave them. Before you tell me I don't understand, I do. My wife and I adopted all three our children through foster care, all three have special needs. WE adjusted, and made the first concessions. As much as we would loved a break for the weekend while she went camping with Girl Scouts, it wasn't a reality.

Hi - thanks for commenting.

I won't tell you that you don't understand. I will tell you that you didn't pay attention to something I've been saying all along. The beginning of our relationship with this troop was a sit-down meeting between the SM, the ASMs (including the 2 involved in our concern), and the majority of the entire Committee. At this meeting, we - in essence - asked permission for our son to join the troop. We explained what they would be dealing with from his point of view as well as our intended level of involvement. Had they not agreed to take on our son, we would not be in this place now. We have NEVER demanded anyone adjust to him - we have asked for their willingness to do so with our help. To put it into your words, we "adjusted and made the first concessions."  

Devils advocate here.

 

1- Removing him can be difficult: In a canoe?  In a raft?  Caving?  On a hike where the troop has to hold up with dark approaching?

2- How long does calming down take?  At least one person has to re-direct whatever they had planned for their time to keep an eye on your son.

3- Does going back to whatever the issue was stimulate another meltdown?  Is resolution eventually reached?

 

I would suggest that in your new troop you hover in the background like some of the other parents have written about.  Scouting is not like school, where the changes come at a slow steady pace.  Scouting is about challenges. The more difficult the challenge, the more the boys grow.

 

If you continue to hope that your boy will be okay in your absence, and he isn't; then your new troop make begin to resent babysitting your boy at the expense of the other troop members, too.

 

Good luck,

 

JoeBob

While I do recognize that you are playing Devil's Advocate, I think you are missing one important thing. Our son had BOTH parents onsite for every meeting. We had been as interactive in the meetings as we were permitted to be by the other ASMs and SM - always stepping in when our son went outside of the parameters that the boy leaders could handle (or the ASMs for that matter). The only time that there has been any concern is on local service outings or local campouts  - both of which were approved by the SM and ASMs for us to step out so he could have a bit more normal of an experience.  

We spent weeks setting him up (social stories, planning, working with his fellow scouts and leaders) on a whitewater rafting trip. We did this because neither of us could (physically) participate. When they got to the event site, the ASMs (the ones we've been discussing) moved him to a different group of scouts and put him in a different role on the 4-person team. As a result, he was 100% trapped and could not have been removed in the method we normally would have attempted. Water trips will be handled differently by us - likely the he will participate in an entirely different fashion.  

Removing him doesn't have to be anything farther away than out of reach from other troop members or leaders. 

Yes, at least one person has to re-direct. If this is an issue, then the communication should be ahead of time because his needs don't change. It's no different than bringing an Epipen or Insulin. If I can count on the ASMs to properly medicate my son (if he needed meds that is), I should be able to count on them to follow an agreed-upon plan. The other option is to say "for this trip, we need one of you to attend or he will not be able to attend" - exactly what we asked them to do from Day One.  

Returning to the scenario does not come back to another meltdown in our case. Resolution is ALWAYS reached. It just needs to be requested when he is able to process it.  

One aspect of Scouting that should be like school? Proper organization. There's no excuse for coming in to a meeting (boy-led or not) that doesn't have some semblance of a plan. Standing around and waiting for someone to do something is hard on the boys - Asperger's or not.

Do you really believe that following the guidelines that they agreed to at the start amounts to babysitting? We have parents who drop and run their boys - we don't even see them for Courts of Honor. In this case, they have a fully-active family here to assist in making the scouting experience top notch for ALL of the boys. Yet they chose to ignore that opportunity.   

A.K.A. Stepford children.

What makes kids who don't play video games and/or who obey their parents earn the label of "Stepford Children"? Is it that much of a stretch that this happens?

 I see the word adult used.. Do you feel it impossible for a boy to learn what you teach the adults?.. If you found a troop that was more boy led and asked you to instruct the SPL & PL as well as some adults, a troop that would mentor the boy leaders (SPL, PL) in how to work with your son.. Do you see this as an impossible feat? 

 

Just asking, I know you said you want boy-lead, but it seems you move back to wanting to lean on only adults for aiding your son when he gets stuck somehow..

Quite the contrary. The now-former troop members were very strong in how they interacted with our son. When that wasn't working, the SM and ASMs (even those two) encouraged the SPL, PL, etc. to seek us out as well as other opportunities to learn about how to make everything work. The issues we had came, primarily, when the scenario grew past the abilities of the available members; thus, requiring adult involvement. 

I have to ask something to all of you here.  The basis for how to interact with our son when he is in crisis is not complex. As an adult, unless you are having a bad day yourself of course, why is this being seen as difficult?  

1. Safely remove him from the scene.
2. Allow him to calm down on his own.
3. Never, ever attempt to resolve anything (good or bad) at that time.

So, not to keep you on the therapists' couch any longer than necessary ... but you haven't really addressed the 2nd half of your title:"how Wrong We Were To Join This Troop" I know you were being rhetorical, but this is where you want to think carefully (maybe including your son in the discussion) before you continue visiting other troops.

 

Well, how wrong you were depends on what you were looking for. If you were looking for top-down adults-in-the-business-of-everything a kid does organization that would protect your son from potentially mean boys, you were quite right.

 

If you were looking for something where the boys took responsibility for each other, and worked hard to figure out the quirks and be quick to forgive. While the adults coached from a distance ... well you missed the signs.

 

So, what are you and your son gonna look for now that you weren't looking for before?

Well, Dr. Qwazse, here's my thoughts...

Our son has been in on the discussion from before we switched from Royal Rangers to BSA. We were "wrong" because we trusted the adult leaders to communicate properly with us. We were wrong because we believed that the adult leaders would keep their own commitment to assisting us in making our son's experience positive. We were wrong, lastly, for not recognizing that - despite our being right there in front of them at (almost) all times - these folks were displeased with how things were happening.  

There are no issues with the boys of the troop - meaning that they are not mean to him at all. Sometimes boys like each other and sometimes boys don't - we aren't seeking utopia here either.  We were specifically not looking to be helicopter parents here either - as you already know. We wanted Boy-Led. The only catch with Boy-Led and our son is that occasionally he needs adult interaction to resolve issues that he cannot resolve on his own. Issues that the boy leaders are not equipped to handle. When he gets hung up, fixated, or is unable to keep up on a task without some added instruction.  THIS is where the adults failed him. THIS is, also, where we failed him by not catching up with the adults belief that he just needed to get his butt kicked once in awhile and he'd be fine (one of the adults is what we might call an Autism Denier to be honest).  

We are looking for a troop that accepts him in a similar or better fashion than the prior troop AND where the adults can take the ball where necessary with our direct help.  

@@DuctTape - I certainly understand the Devil's Advocate angle. The problem is that I am usually the one playing that role in our community. Before posting these threads in the first place, I have already played all of the visible sides out in order to present a fair (and as unbiased as possible) view. The response from the district and from the SM - coupled with the reactions we have received from other SMs when we request a visit (usually "Oh...you are coming from THAT troop?") - I think I'm on solid ground.

We are moving on either way. 

Hey folks! Your sense of humor and solid advice - each and every one of you - really helped me get through these past few days.  I really appreciate the willingness to help.  

my thoughts reading this is, why did the SM, CC and DE let those ASM's go on as they did without asking them to rein in their attitudes and not make it a contest to see who can break all 12 points of the scout law first (by my count, they only had "Thrifty" left)?  With that many ASMs who are clearly NOT there for the boys (sounds more like they are there for THEIR boys) and a neutered SM/CC/Committee, you are going to better off anywhere but there.  The unfortunate part is that it sounds like they are not going to let this go, and I will be surprised if this is the last you hear of them making trouble for you.  Good luck...youre gonna need it

Humor me on something? 

Would you go through it and point me to the 11 points you see? I'm so jaded to it, I'd love to see what you see.  

If it's not a lot of stress.  

Thanks.  

A couple of thoughts.  

First, I'm not sure if there is anything else lying underneath. 

Second, the reason I don't know is because these folks didn't tell us any of this until last night. 

Third, we didn't come in the door and say "we are here, we will train you." We were invited in by another scout and his family. We sat down with leadership to determine that they were interested in trying this out. We told them that our goal was to share all we knew to help them succeed for all of the boys' sake. Like you, I despise those who expect "special treatment" for our type of kids. We are only entitled to equal and fair treatment. 

This being said, if a scouting candidate came in without an arm or a leg, would we be having any of these discussions? Just because ours is an invisible matter, doesn't mean it's any less difficult.  

We have 4 other troops that would make sense. The one that we were looking at (where the ASM overstepped) is not looking like a good fit for other reasons (nothing bad, just preferences). The other three are recommendations from the DE and others who have departed the current troop. Two of them already have had success with special needs scouts which make them attractive to us. The third is just a strong troop with a good reputation.  

We are trying to find a camping option for him to do this summer - inside or outside of scouting. That's really the only thing we are missing.

Good morning everyone.

If you have been following my past two threads (linked below for your convenience), you know that my wife and I were headed to the Troop Committee last night. We had decided that we were going to withdraw our son from the troop but we still felt it important that we understand why our experience had gone sour. In addition, we wanted to address the husband and wife ASMs regarding their personal actions. Present were our District Executive, the Committee Chair, the Scoutmaster, the husband and wife ASMs, three additional ASMs, and a few others. The only thing that I don't believe I have said before is that - the day we first visited the troop - my wife and I discussed what we were trying to accomplish with our son. Specifically, that we hoped to equip the troop leaders with the tools they needed to allow him to be part of the troop without our needing to be the helicopter parents that we normally have to be. They agreed to this challenge under the condition that we understood that we might need to increase activity with the troop in the future. Here are the new items that came to light at the meeting:

1. The story changed yet again as to why - they believed - our son fled from their care at the recent local activity. We have now heard: (a) we don't know why, (b) the underage scout didn't start the vehicle and proclaim he would be driving, © the underage scout did start the vehicle but his father did not tell our son that said scout was permitted to drive, (d) the underage scout was told by his father to start the vehicle and his father did tell our son that he was permitted to drive, and, finally, (e) the van belonged to another ASM who had instructed the underage scout to start the vehicle.  None of this really matters other than to show that they're lying.
2. When we shared our concern that the ASMs had contacted the other troop, we were amazed. They did not deny it - they were angry at the other troop's SM and threatened that they were going to have to call her to yell at her about it.  When we tried to steer them back to the part about bad mouthing our son (or us) to other troops, they commented that they had to "protect other scouts at all costs".  
3. Here's where it got interesting. Another ASM spoke, commenting at length about how difficult it was to work with our son. How much time that the leadership team has spent discussing him and that they are just tired. They need to work with the other boys, too. He went on to state that the leadership team is not trained to handle this type of thing and that we were being unrealistic in our expectations. We reminded them of the initial discussion and went on to describe the full litany of steps we have taken to train and assist them since our arrival. We asked why, if they had such concerns, we weren't being taken advantage of as resources. If we are there at every meeting and most events, why are we only be used for "mop up" duty when something goes wrong?
4. The husband and wife ASMs spoke up at this point, the husband saying that I was p***ng him off, stating that they were told by the Troop Committee (after a rafting trip that, in hindsight, was not a good decision on our part to send him) that our son would not attend any "away trips" without my wife or myself. He went on to say that we are so lazy that we haven't even followed through on that. We reminded the group that we actually had been on every away trip since then unless the SM told us that he felt confident that our son would be fine. Despite rattling off each and every trip of this nature, the ASMs said we were full of s**t.
5. Yet another ASM spoke (with the other ASMs interjecting periodically). He shared that we had no idea how much difficulty our son has been causing. That - when he was a scout in the late 1980's - he was personally kicked out of this troop for far less than our son gets away with. That there are many scouts whom they have had to keep from leaving the troop specifically due to our son. Why should our son be permitted to continue to act out in this way when other boys have to learn how to behave? I reminded the gentleman that he is not Autistic and what a ridiculous statement that was. And, how hurtful of a statement to say that others have wanted to leave because of our son. We are supposed to be an inclusive organization. If we can't do it, that is fine with us but they needed to speak up a long time ago. 
6. The same ASM then said "you're forgetting that this isn't about us, it's about the boys" and told me that he thought we should take it outside (the husband ASM and I that is). Really?
7. My wife started heading for the door. I, by the grace of God, kept my temper and just commented that we didn't understand what had gone wrong. As I started to go, the same ASM who had just commented, asked when we were going to discuss the nasty e-mails I had sent to the SM, CC, and DE? My wife and I stopped and asked what he was talking about. We then dug out our phones and read every word I ever sent to the DE about this. The DE concurred that we had spoken with nothing but respect the entire time.
8. The SM, who had been silent to this point (he doesn't speak much anyway - his nature), spoke and said that the e-mail that he and the CC had received (at the same time) was equally appropriate - only describing the scenarios. He then looked directly at the husband and wife ASMs and said "all you have to do is walk him to the side, make sure he's safe, and let him calm down...it's not that hard". They assaulted him verbally about it as well - "that's unrealistic", "we can't let him treat us this way". We told the group that we felt that these folks had missed out on a great opportunity but that, in the end, it was their loss. We thanked the SM for all he had done for our son - because he has done a ton - and left. 

We were just amazed by the blatant ignorance of these folks to the situation and how to treat fellow human beings under the circumstances. (Not surprised, just amazed).  

So...what do you all think? We are moving our son on to another troop (visitations over the summer months, landing in the fall we hope). We are, also, understandably worried about how this group of people is leading boys in our town. We can't do much about it other than to raise awareness wherever we go. Does anyone think we should complain any further? If so, why?  (To be clear - we don't want to go further with it at this point).       

Thanks for keeping me sane on this over these past days.  

 http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/27268-scout-wautism-troop-asms-having-difficulty-possible-new-troops-sm-called-by-asms-thoughts/

http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/27281-new-twist-to-my-prior-topic-these-assistants-have-now-requested-that-our-son-be-removed/

Well...everyone can stay tuned. The meeting was a whole mess of "fun".  Totally not what we were expecting. 

The good news is that it is now over as far as our son's involvement with the troop. We will be moving on in that sense. (This was OUR decision I must add - not theirs)

I'll catch you all up tomorrow.  Thanks! 

My two cents is that any kid with a special need should have someone with whom he identifies on EVERY camp out. If that's mom or dad, so be it. If another leader can fill that role then great. But if no one that has a rapport with your son is going on the camp out, my suggestion would be for you or your husband to go or have him stay home.

 

I get the desire to "main stream" your son as much as possible, but if that safety net of a caring, trained adult is not there to guide him -- despite all the coping skills he may have learned -- the outcome may be too much for untrained adults to handle.

 

In 12 years I can only recall two times calling a parent to pick up their son. Both cases were scouts who packed like it was summer for a camp out where temps dropped below 20F. We've all had the home sick scout, the scout who was too scared to sleep for fear of bears, the "trouble-maker" you wanted to duct tape to your bumper, etc. But in all those cases we deal with it. When we get back we work with the parents on strategies to keep those situations from happening again. Only when the parents refuse or are reluctant to work with the unit would we ever take the drastic step of barring them from events.

Camp Outs are not where these problems lie. We have been either personally in place or been cleared by the SM to take a trip off. Those have been just fine. The local outings and service projects are the issue.  

It's just a communication matter now.  

Trying to answer some of the questions/comments since I was last on.

• We have the DE coming to tonight's meeting. He is doing so not only at our request but, also, at the request of the SM and the CC.
• Our SM is very strong in working with the boys. His gifts in doing the same with adults are not so much. We believe that he is trying very hard to tread lightly on both "sides" of this for fear of a bad overall outcome. I don't really blame him. 
• Our CO is a bit hands-off. I'm going to leave them on the outside until after tonight's meeting because our final result is not going to be the Committee removing our son. It's going to be attempting a compromise which - however unlikely - doesn't rise to that next level in our minds yet.  
• We will, most definitely, be "outing" these two ASMs along the way. And that's not a vengeful comment - although we are more than a bit upset. They just need to know that this is not the way to do things. Whether they ever understand it, is not our problem. As long as they hear it.  
• We don't really get why they are being this way. This was a bit of a surprise to us. We knew that they were struggling with how to interact with him but didn't know to this extent. 
• The "direct leadership" comment means this: There are occasions when the SM is unable to attend. On those occasions, one or both of these ASMs are de facto "in charge". When the SM is present, our son may have his issues but the SM properly diffuses them or seeks assistance from other ASMs. When he is not present, we can count on a call to come pick-up our son (if we are not onsite) or our son coming home upset after the fact. The worst part has always been that these folks don't share details with us unless we come to them - sometimes Asperger's kids don't remember details so we really don't know the truth.  Further, on those occasions that they do tell us anything, it's not the whole truth. 

Thanks everyone! Sincerely. 
Our most pressing need is to determine what this troop is really all about. I say this because our Son is "stuck" on why he must leave the troop. I mean this in an Asperger's way. We need to have all of these things cleaned up before we leave - or even if somehow we end up staying and turning this troop on its ear, we need him to be ready to move forward. Plus, we feel strongly that these folks need to at least recognize their errors (not that they have to change - they likely won't I imagine).  

It's amazing - we were reading back through all of the literature that we have shared with the troop - including the Autism and Scouting resources that are just awesome. It's not that hard to follow the guidelines if you want to do so!

Really glad to understand that we have all of the scenarios in our favor as far as who gets to make these decisions.  Really didn't understand that process very well.  

Don't worry - we'll get loud if we need to. Just making sure we are loud with ammunition to back up the volume.

Well...here we go even farther down the path. 

In the prior discussion, the ASMs had reported our son's behavior "problems" to potential new troops. Now, we come to find that they went up the chain even farther, asking for him to be removed altogether. The first step, as we understand it, is the Troop Committee meeting that they were, at first, having without us tomorrow. If our troop removes him, then these two have already submitted a tentative request to the next level up (I believe this is the District Round-table?).  

We know that dealing with our son is not easy. We, also, know that we have been trying to stand side-by-side with troop leadership from the minute we arrived. We have done everything that they have asked of us and have done our level best to provide strong support - even if they disagreed with us.

Our options are limited - as we understand them.

• Barring any surprises, I'm sure we are leaving the current troop (whether dismissed or not). 
• We cannot transfer to the other troops in the area without at least having to deal with the same ASMs in their outside-the-troop roles (Commissioner, Training Adviser, etc.).
• We have no idea what MIGHT happen if they are successful in removing him completely from the entire thing.

Any additional suggestions or advice?  

@@andysmom

We are PAINFULLY clear on the Boy-led aspect of this troop. There is a line between Boy-led and UN-led. Further, when my son has suggested organizational needs on his own, he has been "outvoted" by his troopmates. For example, if another boy is in charge of purchasing food for a camp out there is no planning and frequently not enough to eat for everyone. If it's my son's turn, he makes menus and shops so that they'll all eat like kings for the same amount of money as the other scenario. Despite the fact that everyone oohs and ahhs over the better result, they don't want to even consider it when it's their turn.  Another favorite is the pickup times for away trips (those that I don't attend obviously). "We will arrive at the parking lot by 11 a.m."  Then we get an angry phone call at 9:30 a.m. because they decided to come home early (how were we supposed to know) OR they don't arrive until 2 or 3 p.m. and nobody will answer the phone to confirm life. All of this is done in the name of "Boy-led".  

Like I said, there's a line.  

 

@@andysmom

The SM and CC are just not reacting to this much at all. I'm not sure why. We are trying to connect with them today in fact. The DE and DC have recommended the two other troops in the area that might be options and we are pursuing them at this time.  

It's so frustrating.  If this troop would have some vision for kids like these, especially in terms of organizational scenarios (our meetings are very haphazard as are our activities), it would be so much better for everyone involved.  

Hi again everyone.  

@@scoutldr certainly has a point. We, as parents, work hard to make sure that we don't put people in places that THEY can't handle. We spend a lot of time working on strategies for our son to self-manage his needs so that these types of incidents have become few and far between. In the case of these 2 ASMs, however, we have worked directly with them to put steps in place for their benefit (as well as our son's). When they want one of us to be on site for an event, we are there. (We are there at every meeting already). We have taken additional steps to better understand how to help THEM to work with our son. Finally, we had always given them the benefit of the doubt on his issues until we realized that they weren't following the guidelines that they helped to create.  

It's a difficult scenario...no doubt.